French Secularism

[IceBlaZe]

Still waiting for a reply, Akka.
Will you force those who see wearing certain religious symbols as a duty to change schools, eventually paying more for a private religious school.
What you'll get is discrimination of the religious, not equality.

 

[Jorge]

Originally posted by Akka

Only with people that want to force their religion through the laic grounds of a secular state.
People that recognize the secular nature of the state and that accept the laws aren't the one that will be concerned by this law. Only people that already refuse the very foundations of the country are about to feel annoyed by this law.

It's always be the case that religious symbols are forbidden into schools, and that secularism is built into the Constitution. If they don't want to comply with the very constitution of the country, then they get out. Simple as that.

I can't see how wearing a scarf is 'forcing my religion through the laic ground of a secular state', really. You must understand that they don't wear the scarf to convince others to follow their religion, they wear the scarf for personal beliefs. They are not forcing anyone. It's completly different.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

If only it was that simple Akka. They wont get out. They'll stay and fight. Why shouldnt they? The Muslims are French citizens too, arent they? Why should they leave their country because the government passes a bad law? Do you agree that its their country as much as yours?

 

[funxus]

I agree religion shouldn't be a part of education in any way. I can also see the point in prohibiting political messages, but there's the line I think. The easiest way would be to introduce school uniforms so that there's no question of what's allowed and what isn't.

Underwear is not a symbol for either a political opinion or a religion and should therefore be allowed.

 

[Skullbones]

I don't get it. It's just school. Unless everyone has uniforms who cares if someone wants to wear a scarf or not. And well... who cares if someone's parents makes them wear a scarf. Parents do a lot of stupid things to their children and I don't think it's the gov's responsibility to intervene. (Don't go extreme here, obviously there are plenty of situations where people need help)

So, what is this for anyway? To make sure all the students are more equal? To keep conversion out of school? Oh yeah... good idea... let's see how much of the real world we can keep away from the students until they graduate.

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
Still waiting for a reply, Akka.
Will you force those who see wearing certain religious symbols as a duty to change schools, eventually paying more for a private religious school.
What you'll get is discrimination of the religious, not equality.

Well, then they can wear their symbols, then cover them with another layer of clothing.
Religion is a PERSONNAL, PRIVATE subject. What if your religion says that you must be naked everytime and everywhere ? Will you accept naked people into school because it would be segregation in the other case ?
No. The laws aren't made AGAINST a particular religion. They are made to protect freedom of thought, and unbiased education. Personnal opinions are to be developped personnally, not teached into school, nor publicized to children into supposedly neutral grounds.

Originally posted by Jorge
I can't see how wearing a scarf is 'forcing my religion through the laic ground of a secular state', really.

The law says : no display of religious symbol in state-run building.
You say "screw it, I will wear my religious symbol".
Conclusion : you try to force your personnal opinion on religious through laic ground.

You must understand that they don't wear the scarf to convince others to follow their religion, they wear the scarf for personal beliefs. They are not forcing anyone. It's completly different.

You must understand that they aren't forbidden to wear religious symbol to humiliate or insult them, they are forbidden to wear religious symbol because religious is excluded from state-run facilities. The state is not forcing anyone to quit his religion. It just says : keep it for outside.

When you go into a Church, do you wear a "God is a lie" shirt ?
No ?
Well, then, when you enter into a secular building, you don't wear a "this is my religious belief" symbol.

Originally posted by Dumb pothead
If only it was that simple Akka. They wont get out. They'll stay and fight. Why shouldnt they? The Muslims are French citizens too, arent they?

I wonder... Am I talking about Muslims, or am I talking about people that refuse to accept secularism of school ?
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think I'm talking about the second ones, ie outlaws.

Why should they leave their country because the government passes a bad law? Do you agree that its their country as much as yours?

1) Because it's not a bad laws, it's a law that has been in effect for a century, it's a law which principle is written in stone in our Constitution since two centuries, the only thing is that the law will confirm that the veil IS a religious symbol.
2) Because if someone don't agree with the laws of a country, and refuse to abide by them, then he gets to jail or he gets out.
3) They are as much French as I am, and so they are as bound by the laws of France as I am. I don't wear "religion sucks" or "I believe in Atheism" when I enter a Mosque, they don't wear "Secularism my butt" or "I believe in Islam" when they enter a state-run building.

 

[Eklektikos]

Originally posted by Akka

3) They are as much French as I am, and so they are as bound by the laws of France as I am. I don't wear "religion sucks" or "I believe in Atheism" when I enter a Mosque, they don't wear "Secularism my butt" or "I believe in Islam" when they enter a state-run building.

You worship the state?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Skullbones, I agree with you, who cares if somebody wants to wear a scarf, why should that threaten anybody? Ahh, theres the rub. Theyre terrified of the scarf because its a symbol that their France is dissapearing and being replaced. French birthrates are low, Muslim immigrant birth rates are high, and the immigration doesnt stop. Anybody can see that within 50 years, France will be a very different place. I can understand their fears to an extent but theyre going about it the wrong way. Its like when they pass laws trying to stop people from using English words. Its just dumb. If you want people to assimilate into the French culture, you have to make that culture as exciting and dynamic as possible, not pass absurd laws that anyone with sense will ignore.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Well, then they can wear their symbols, then cover them with another layer of clothing.

No need for that really - a kippa is only symbolic, it's duty can be taken with a simple hat. The idea is to seperate the human in the ground from the almighty god above. Hence - a headcover.

Religion is a PERSONNAL, PRIVATE subject. What if your religion says that you must be naked everytime and everywhere ?

That is a case of contradiction between freedom of religion to human honor and dignity. Of course the latter wins.
However, in our case, I don't see how wearing a kippa contradicts a democratic value. The french law is not based on a democratic value - it is simply a french nuance.

No. The laws aren't made AGAINST a particular religion. They are made to protect freedom of thought, and unbiased education.

Freedom of thought? A student wearing a kippa does not prevent ANY freedom worthwhile mentioning. That's just stretching it - convenient enough to support this law.

Personnal opinions are to be developped personnally, not teached into school, nor publicized to children into supposedly neutral grounds.

Neutral grounds remain neutral in the display of someones duty to god, since it is not the grounds that are being "religionized".
I fail to see how allowing a student wearing a kippa makes anything neutral not remain so.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Akka, I think most Muslims would argue that the scarf is a cultural thing and not religous at all.

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by Eklektikos

You worship the state?

State is the tool of the people to run the country. Everybody can be part of it, and can affect it. It's open to everybody that is part of the country, without any discrimination.
I don't worship the state, because I'm PART of the state. It's the same for everyone, so it must not be biased against or in favor of anyone.

People seems to not understand the concept of neutrality nor secularism.
The point is not "how does that threaten you ?", the point is "religion has nothing to do here". I don't threaten anyone by saying out loud I'm a socialist either. I'm not forcing anyone to vote like me by doing so.

But it has nothing to do in a neutral ground.

 

[IceBlaZe]

France is really battling through the Muslim immigration.
I can already see some desperation in the eyes of french people I talk to.
But this step will certainly not help.

 

[hawai_74]

Originally posted by Dumb pothead
who cares if somebody wants to wear a scarf

Yes, who cares...some girls going to school are forced by their family to wear a scarf not to disturb the rules of islam. These girl are deprived of sports in school, because they can't take off the scarf. Deprived to share those moments with schoolfriends. So i don't thinks its freedom to be forced to follow ones religion.

This question take place also in other countries like Belgium, Switzerland, Canada (i've read in this thread). This question don't take place in USA perhaps they've already understood this problem.

As said also in this thread, most of schools in Britain impose a uniform (even with a scarf, i'm not sure)

 

[Akka]

If the despair was so great, we would simply shut the borders down

Get out of your fantasy worlds, guys. Secularism was written in the Constitution in 1789. It's not like it's a new idea that suddendly popped out of nowhere because there is 5 % of the population that is Muslim...

 

[hawai_74]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe

But this step will certainly not help.

I agree also with that, but the problem is still here, so this law will help to (perhaps, but certainly not) make a good decision.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Iceblaze, I havent mentioned the restrictions on Jewish or Christian symbols because its just so obvious that this is directed at the Muslims. The Jews and Christians have been thrown in there just to make it look better. The French know it and the Muslim community in France knows it.

I don't threaten anyone by saying out loud I'm a socialist either. I'm not forcing anyone to vote like me by doing so.

Exactly Akka! So please explain then how someone wearing a scarf is a problem. How about if the French government restricted the free speech of socialists? How would you feel about that?

 

[Eklektikos]

Originally posted by hawai_74


As said also in this thread, most of schools in Britain impose a uniform (even with a scarf, i'm not sure)

Headscarves for religious/cultural purposes were allowed to be worn in conjunction with uniform at most schools in my area. Dress requirements for schools in the UK are, AFAIK, at the discretion of the school or possibly the local education authority, so the imposition of an intractible ban on headscarves etc at any given school would be unlikely simply because of the risk of legal action by a particularly disgruntled parent.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Originally posted by hawai_74
Yes, who cares...some girls going to school are forced by their family to wear a scarf not to disturb the rules of islam. These girl are deprived of sports in school, because they can't take off the scarf. Deprived to share those moments with schoolfriends. So i don't thinks its freedom to be forced to follow ones religion.

hawai, when I was a kid, my parents forced me to go to Catholic school even though I didnt want to when I was older. Later, they made me go to Catechism classes even though I didnt want to. The forced me to have my Confirmation as a Catholic even though I didnt want to. Thats life, parents try to pass on their religion to their kids. If that religion happens to be Islam, the state has a right to interfere with the parents wishes?

 

[Akka]

Oh my... Are you really dumb or haven't you even bothered to READ what I wrote ?

Originally posted by Dumb pothead
Iceblaze, I havent mentioned the restrictions on Jewish or Christian symbols because its just so obvious that this is directed at the Muslims. The Jews and Christians have been thrown in there just to make it look better. The French know it and the Muslim community in France knows it.

Get to read my past post. It will perhaps avoid another pile of imbecilities.
It's been TWO HUNDRED YEARS that secularism was put in Constitution, and ONE HUNDRED YEARS that it's forbidden for ANY major symbol of ANY religion to be displayed in school.
There is no big cross in classroom either, and they are as forbidden as the veil.

Exactly Akka! So please explain then how someone wearing a scarf is a problem. How about if the French government restricted the free speech of socialists? How would you feel about that?

It's ALREADY THE CASE ! Are you blind ? I am already NOT ALLOWED to display my political views in official buildings.

And guess what ? I think it's great.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Iceblaze, I havent mentioned the restrictions on Jewish or Christian symbols because its just so obvious that this is directed at the Muslims. The Jews and Christians have been thrown in there just to make it look better. The French know it and the Muslim community in France knows it.

I agree.