French Secularism

[Bozo Erectus]

Originally posted by Akka
It's been TWO HUNDRED YEARS that secularism was put in Constitution, and ONE HUNDRED YEARS that it's forbidden for ANY major symbol of ANY religion to be displayed in school.

Akka, if this is a 200 year old issue, then why are we sitting here talking about this today? And what about what I said earlier, that most Muslims consider the scarf to be cultural and not religious.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Get to read my past post. It will perhaps avoid another pile of imbecilities.
It's been TWO HUNDRED YEARS that secularism was put in Constitution, and ONE HUNDRED YEARS that it's forbidden for ANY major symbol of ANY religion to be displayed in school.

Yes, and only a few years of massive muslim immigration.
So, odds are the latter is the bigger reason.

 

[hawai_74]

Originally posted by Dumb pothead


If that religion happens to be Islam, the state has a right to interfere with the parents wishes?

But here religion is catholicism, the goal is not to create separate worlds for young muslims and for young christians or anyone else religion.

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by Dumb pothead
Akka, if this is a 200 year old issue, then why are we sitting here talking about this today? And what about what I said earlier, that most Muslims consider the scarf to be cultural and not religious.

Because the fight against Christians was resolved one century ago, and the christian community accepted the situation one century ago.

Or perhaps did you think that they accepted it without a blink at the time, and would suddendly reawaken one hundred years latter, just because ?

The muslim community is largely from immigration, and a part of it hasn't been integrated, and refuse the french values. So the trouble with secularism arise with this part of the community. What's surprising about it ?

 

[funxus]

Originally posted by Dumb pothead
hawai, when I was a kid, my parents forced me to go to Catholic school even though I didnt want to when I was older. Later, they made me go to Catechism classes even though I didnt want to. The forced me to have my Confirmation as a Catholic even though I didnt want to. Thats life, parents try to pass on their religion to their kids. If that religion happens to be Islam, the state has a right to interfere with the parents wishes?

There shouldn't be any (IMO) religious schools at all, so that the problem in your case, or any other case involving any other religion, can't arise. As already said, religion and education shouldn't be combined. If your parents want to teach you catholicism, they have to do it on your free time, if muslim or jewish parents want their kids to wear a headcover, they have to do it on the free time.

Head covers of any kind are usually prohibited during classes here (like caps and hats), but I don't know if this counts for head scarves as well, although it should.

 

[Speedo]

2) Because if someone don't agree with the laws of a country, and refuse to abide by them, then he gets to jail or he gets out.

Actually the last time I checked they'll try to change those laws. (reference the civil rights stuff in the 50s-60s)

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by Speedo
Actually the last time I checked they'll try to change those laws. (reference the civil rights stuff in the 50s-60s)

You can always change the laws in a democratic country, by voting.
But once a law is made, you have to follow it until it's changed.

 

[IceBlaZe]

You are not trying to secularize the Muslim community, you are trying to Frenchiate the Mulsim community. That's just not going to happen - certainly not by forcing them to. Some of them will just get more HOSTILE towards the french. Eventually you can even be a target of Al Qaeda.
You'll close your borders, sooner or later. The despair is adding up quite quickly - either you are blind to your own society, or you just preffer not to talk about it on an internet forum.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

If your parents want to teach you catholicism, they have to do it on your free time, if muslim or jewish parents want their kids to wear a headcover, they have to do it on the free time.
Why funxus? People dont leave their culture and religion at the door when they walk out of their house and begin their day. They should be forced to because people with different views than yours offend you?

Is there a Muslim out there who can confirm that the scarf is not explicitly mentioned as a requirement in the Koran? That its use is cultural and varies greatly among Muslim nations?

If you could be persuaded that the scarf is not a religous thing but a cultural one, would you drop your objections to it?

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
You are not trying to secularize the Muslim community, you are trying to Frenchiate the Mulsim community.

Two things :
1) The goal is not to secularize the Muslims. The goal is to keep the school secular. If you can't make the difference, it's quite frightening.
2) Yes, we are trying to frenchiate the muslim community. France has always been a land of integration and assimilation. With all the clashes that can follow, yes, but until now, every wave of immigrant has been assimilated in the long run.

That's just not going to happen - certainly not by forcing them to. Some of them will just get more HOSTILE towards the french. Eventually you can even be a target of Al Qaeda.

Well, then they will go hostile. Our land has values. If you don't like these values, go elsewhere, or try to change them within the system.

You'll close your borders, sooner or later. The despair is adding up quite quickly - either you are blind to your own society, or you just preffer not to talk about it on an internet forum.

There is worry about immigration. But then, there was worry about Polish immigration, and Italian immigration, and Spanish immigration. We'll see if this one is definitely too far away, culturally speaking, to be assimilated, or if it will just follow the same path.

 

[Speedo]

Originally posted by Akka

You can always change the laws in a democratic country, by voting.
But once a law is made, you have to follow it until it's changed.

civil disobedience
n.
Refusal to obey civil laws in an effort to induce change in governmental policy or legislation, characterized by the use of passive resistance or other nonviolent means.

Wearing a scarf is about as passive and nonviolent as you get. Is the french govt really going to pour nitroglycerine on the fire by arresting muslims if a great many of them refuse to obey?

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by Speedo
civil disobedience
n.
Refusal to obey civil laws in an effort to induce change in governmental policy or legislation, characterized by the use of passive resistance or other nonviolent means.

Wearing a scarf is about as passive and nonviolent as you get. Is the french govt really going to pour nitroglycerine on the fire by arresting muslims if a great many of them refuse to obey?

No. The usual conduct is to tell : either you put out your veil, either you get out of the school.

 

[Eklektikos]

I suspect exclusion from school is a more likely response to refusal to comply. If my assumption is correct, the law is there to back up the schools in such action and at the same time require them to act rather than to criminalise anybody.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Akka, I'll try again: If the scarf was shown to be cultural rather than religious, would you drop your objections to it?

 

[Speedo]

No. The usual conduct is to tell : either you put out your veil, either you get out of the school.

I thought that the law affected all state institutions?

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by Dumb pothead
Akka, I'll try again: If the scarf was shown to be cultural rather than religious, would you drop your objections to it?

If it's not religious/political, and not against the school policies, no problems.

Originally posted by Speedo


I thought that the law affected all state institutions?

Yes.
But you hardly see a veiled woman outside school. So I just answered to the most common situation.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Originally posted by Akka
If it's not religious/political, and not against the school policies, no problems.

Hmm, you left yourself plenty of wiggle roome there. If its cultural and not religous, then any school policies prohibiting it in France would be unconstitutional.

 

[Eklektikos]

That doesn't necessarily follow. Dress restrictions are legally applied in British schools without any law specifying the details of what may be prohibited AFAIK. Provided the French don't have a law guaranteeing that school pupils can wear whatever they like excepting this, this and this, there should be no problem with schools applying their own dress-codes.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Ok... someone considered the example of Turkey was a bad one since it was a "backward" country. The guy who said so has obviously forgotten Turkey is the only fully democratic muslim country and that it has already abolished death penalty (which is not the case of some countries like... hmm... the USA).

Second point, there's a strong muslim communauty in France since the 60's. The veil is a problem in public school only since the 1990's. By the way, I would like to add that it's more brothers and not parents who are forcing their sisters to wear the veil. If secularism in public schools worked in the 60's, 70's, 80's... then why couldn't it work now ?

Moreover, I must insist on the fact the veil is a barrier to women emancipation. People who are defending the veil in public schools are mostly fundamentalists and not humble muslims. In short they are saying : "We use your western values of individual freedoms to destroy your western values of individual freedoms". Where is the individual freedom in a woman who is waiting for the permission of her husband to get healed in a hospital emergency service ? I'm just saying so to prove the veil is not just a religious symbol... it means a lot more than that : women's submission to male authority.

Now about public schools particularly. We're not talking about women in here but about girls aged betwen 13 years old and 18 years old. The veil is here to isolate these girls from the rest of society. Some people may consider we shouldn't care if kids are forced to stay out of the society, personnaly, I do care.

All people I've heard in here who supports the idea of the veil inside public school are accusing people who are against to refuse muslims. I'm sorry to say it's the exact opposite. If you really consider muslims as people who are fully part of the society, you can't let kids being forced to get marginalized.

As Akka and Kinniken already said it, in France, secularism in public schools is as old as public schools themselves ! We are not talking about something new, we're talking about something that has already be proven as a good way to avoid religious cleansing in the society. Thanx to secularism, no one cares of the religion of people in France. Some great political leaders have been jew, catholic or protestant and no one cared of their religion.

And by the way, if I said at the beginning of this thread that I was better placed to talk about it because I was french, it's just because I've heard everything of the debate about it (We've talked a lot about it in French Media). It wasn't to say that other people were stupid... just to say that I've heard more about it than people who didn't live the debate as I did.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

If after this whole controversy, if it was shown that the scarf is merely cultural, and it was STILL prohibited, then the real reason behind the ban would be revealed for all to see. Its wrong, it indefensible and I bet you a million bucks, the law will be struck down. Remember you heard it here first.