French Secularism

[Archer 007]

Originally posted by Marla_Singer


However, ostentatious religious signs (just like advertisement) won't be able to enter inside school. However, banning advertisement from school doesn't mean you have to keep off your nikes from school ! Lol !

The school is not advertising by allow children to show their religious choice.

 

[cgannon64]

I don't see how anyone can defend France banning even the tiniest bit of personal religious expression.

Let's ban band t-shirts next, because, in a public place, you can't favor one band over another!

 

[Marla_Singer]

The school is not advertising by allow children to show their religious choice.

You should be really naive to think the veil is just about showing our religious choice. Life isn't like Disney World. If you want to claim your religious choice, you don't have to do more than to wear a fatma's hand around the neck.

Why ? Because a fatma's hand around the neck is an affirmation of our own belief. A veil is a message to other muslim girls who aren't wearing it. It says : "Look at me, I'm pure and look at you, you're a slut". I don't consider underage girls to be enough mature to bear such a symbol.

You seem to believe the veil is a problem for non-muslim french people, but it's actually the opposite ! The veil is a problem for muslim french people who don't want to wear it !

 

[Marla_Singer]

It's funny to just see "religious expression" in a Niqab !

You can see below a Niqab. It has not its place in a secular and neutral place such as secular schools. It's not religious expression, it's pure and simple submission... which is at the exact opposite of educational emancipation.

And once again, I repeat myself, the main lobby against the veil in public schools come from muslim women themselves !

 

[Archer 007]

Originally posted by Marla_Singer

Why ? Because a fatma's hand around the neck is an affirmation of our own belief. A veil is a message to other muslim girls who aren't wearing it. It says : "Look at me, I'm pure and look at you, you're a slut". I don't consider underage girls to be enough mature to bear such a symbol.

You seem to believe the veil is a problem for non-muslim french people, but it's actually the opposite ! The veil is a problem for muslim french people who don't want to wear it !

Thats just their own problem. They know what they are just. Just like extremist in any sect give it a bad name.

 

[jroa99]

Originally posted by Dumb pothead
France is fighting a losing battle trying to prevent itself from becoming a Muslim nation. The only way to do that would be to completely halt all immigration from Muslim countries. This business about preventing Muslim women from wearing the scarf is idiotic and counterproductive. All it does is radicalize the percentage of the Muslim population in France that previously was busily assimilating. Muslims who wouldnt have before, will now make a point of displaying their religion in public, just as an act of defiance. If you put people on the defensive, they will resist you.

Yep. Pretty much sums up what I think about this matter. This is just going to PO some muslims, and will lead to nothing positive....

Good Day

 

[Marla_Singer]

Originally posted by archer_007

Thats just their own problem. They know what they are just. Just like extremist in any sect give it a bad name.

That's exactly the logic I can't stand. It's their own problem if they are discriminated... there's no link with my selfish interests. Well, personnaly, I don't consider "them" as being different from "us".

Message Edited : Just to avoid mis-interpretation. I do consider all individuals as being different, but I consider they should be free to choose their own life and when we wear a Niqab at 12 years old in a class, it doesn't come from our own choice. When I say "they" aren't different from "us", it's because I consider everyone in this country must have the same rights.

 

[Skullbones]

Originally posted by Marla_Singer
You seem to believe the veil is a problem for non-muslim french people, but it's actually the opposite ! The veil is a problem for muslim french people who don't want to wear it !

So the muslim women who wear the veil want a law to ban the wearing of the veil? why don't the just choose not to wear it. I mean, it's been a while since I was in school but there were always silly things involving what people wore. You weren't cool if you had like some certain brand of shoes or whatever. And so what if the parents make them and now they can't fit in? Some kids aren't allowed to go out to birthday parties or are allowed to stay out late or go out for cheerleading or whatever because their parents suck. It's not a decision the gov should make.

I'm with Pothead on this one. I probably can't say anything different, but I don't think the gov should be able to tell them they can't wear whatever just because it's religious. The state doesn't seem neutral, they seem biased towards the non-religious.

BTW, I'm very sorry I missed such a lengthy discussion. It's been a good read minus some guy who randomly trolls. (What's up with that???)

 

[Marla_Singer]

So the muslim women who wear the veil want a law to ban the wearing of the veil? why don't the just choose not to wear it.

Obviously you haven't read all the thread (I can understand that... it makes 10 pages now ! ). First, we are talking about girls at school, not about women. That's a huge difference.

The thing is simply that the choice isn't made by yourself. The choice is made by family (mostly brothers). Actually, there's a behaviour that is spreading in some neighbourhoods in France : Girls are either "sluts" (which means everyone have the right to sleep with them) or submissived (which means they will stay pure untill the wedding). To avoid their sisters to be considered as "sluts", brothers force them to wear the veil.

Actually, the first association who denounced that situation is an association of mothers called "Neither slut, nor submissived" (Ni pute, Ni soumise). They consider that if we don't ban the veil, then it will spread and that will avoid the emancipation of muslim women. I must remind you the veil is a new behaviour that didn't exist before... and France has also a strong muslim communauty since the 50's. It's crucial to avoid the veil inside public schools because if we don't do that, girls will be more and more divided into "sluts" with no veil and "submissived" with veil.

When you're considered as a slut... everyone can sleep on you (and not with). Very often, "boyfriends" lend their girlfriends to their friends. It's a true nightmare.

We are talking about women emancipation people ! How can you be against it ?

 

[Archer 007]

Originally posted by Marla_Singer


That's exactly the logic I can't stand. It's their own problem if they are discriminated... there's no link with my selfish interests. Well, personnaly, I don't consider "them" as being different from "us".

Nor do I. My point is people are going to be discrimanated against no matter what.

 

[Skullbones]

Originally posted by Marla_Singer
Obviously you haven't read all the thread (I can understand that... it makes 10 pages now ! ). First, we are talking about girls at school, not about women. That's a huge difference.

I know it's girls in school we are talking about, otherwise I wouldn't have written about school.

The thing is simply that the choice isn't made by yourself. The choice is made by family (mostly brothers). Actually, there's a behaviour that is spreading in some neighbourhoods in France : Girls are either "sluts" (which means everyone have the right to sleep with them) or submissived (which means they will stay pure untill the wedding). To avoid their sisters to be considered as "sluts", brothers force them to wear the veil.

So? I still don't get it. A person's family is always a major influence on them. Why should the gov intervene? Why don't these oppressed women wear all black, listen to punk music, dye their hair and rebel like the rest of the kids whose family doesn't understand? What's going to happen? What are they beaten or something if they don't comply? So what if they get a bad rep at school. I'm sorry, but I had no idea popularity at school was so important.

It's crucial to avoid the veil inside public schools because if we don't do that, girls will be more and more divided into "sluts" with no veil and "submissived" with veil.

Just other muslims call them sluts or all French people? Why can't they find other friends?

When you're considered as a slut... everyone can sleep on you (and not with). Very often, "boyfriends" lend their girlfriends to their friends. It's a true nightmare.

These girls need to start thinking for themselves. Are you really telling me the only way to get these girls to start thinking for themselves, and stop letting other people do whatever they want with them is to make a law saying they can't wear a scarf? I don't see how that will do any good at all. Is it going to inspire confidence in them to say, "No, I will not let someone 'borrow' my body." Perhaps I'm not taking this seriously enough. I haven't seen the problem first hand.

 

[Speedo]

Yes. Because if they refuse to accept the neutrality of state, it means they want to cow the state to their own religious belief, so they won't stop until religion is back on political power.

Right. Because their view of seperation of church and state is different from yours, they won't stop until they choke you all on religion. Yet we are supposed to believe those who believe like the might and wise Akka have no interest in pushing religion completely out.

What a crock of bull.

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by Speedo


Right. Because their view of seperation of church and state is different from yours, they won't stop until they choke you all on religion. Yet we are supposed to believe those who believe like the might and wise Akka have no interest in pushing religion completely out.

What a crock of bull.

Bleh.
Yeah, yeah, of course.
They refuse to accept the religious neutrality of the state, but it's just "a different view of separation of church and state" !
They refuse to accept the laws, but it's just me which wants to kill any religion in the world !
It's been one century that everybody is free to practice his religion withtout the state ever stepping in, but it's going to ban all religion !
OF COURSE !

Now this is it. I give up. Nobody is as blind as the one who doesn't want to see (and here comes the "blablabla so do you"). If you only look what you want to see without being bothered with little things like facts and logic, bah, it's a problem between you and your stupidity. I'm outta here.

 

[nihilistic]

Originally posted by Dumb pothead
1. cigarette smoking is banned in certain buildings because cigarettes smoke is toxic and harms people. Is that how the French view religion? If so, I repeat: such a position is not being neutral.

2. In the buildings where smoking is prohibited, smoking is banned.

Why not? Suppose youare of faith A and 75% of your classmates are of faith B and they all came to school with complete wardrobes of that faith, wouldn't you think there will be some kind of pressure on you to pretend that you are of faith B?

 

[yaroslav]

I've read that in hospitals the things are even worse that in schools, becuase in hospitals some muslim extremist don't allow their woman to be touched by male doctors....

 

[EdwardTking]

I'm english and I live in england.

I don't mind islamic women who wear head scarves to cover their hair or long skirts or trousers to cover their legs, but I really dislike the veils.

Wearing veils is a disguise, not a clothing. It is normal in most societies for people to be able to see the face of the people sitting next to them.

Wearing veils is anti-social. What they are trying to say is that they are special, and that it is not for the likes of westerners to see them. This is quite rude. The religious argument is entirely spurious. It is all about their choosing not to fit in. Well if they don't want to fit in with the West, they should leave the West.

When I went to Egypt on holiday; it was very hot; but I accepted
the local custom of covering up, and covered up myself. I did not wear a crucifix and I did not drink alcohol which was available.

It is us to the Islamics in england to fit in with us, and for the Islamics in France to fit in with the French.

 

[EzInKy]

Originally posted by yaroslav
I've read that in hospitals the things are even worse that in schools, becuase in hospitals some muslim extremist don't allow their woman to be touched by male doctors....

It does make one wonder what goes on in the mind of a man who thinks every other man is out to molest his mate, such as projecting his own thoughts on others versus simple feelings of inadeqecy, but exploring that topic would be a subject for a whole other thread.

 

[Archer 007]

Originally posted by EdwardTking

I don't mind islamic women who wear head scarves to cover their hair or long skirts or trousers to cover their legs, but I really dislike the veils.

Wearing veils is a disguise, not a clothing. It is normal in most societies for people to be able to see the face of the people sitting next to them.

Wearing veils is anti-social. What they are trying to say is that they are special, and that it is not for the likes of westerners to see them. This is quite rude. The religious argument is entirely spurious. It is all about their choosing not to fit in. Well if they don't want to fit in with the West, they should leave the West.

Relating this nihilistic's post, its this trying to pressure them to conform to Faith B's (Christianity, in this case) standards?

 

[nihilistic]

Originally posted by Speedo
What a crock of bull.

I think this statement is probably better suited to describe the following quotation:

Originally posted by Speedo
Banning religious people from govt buildings, and then banning religion itself = sperating church from state? Well, I feel sorry for all the religious people in France then. Maybe we should liberate them after we finish with Iraq

 

[Aphex_Twin]

Someone give me a fool-proof deffinition of a religious symbol !