fresh water is a finite resource

apatheist

Emperor
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
1,270
The various civ games have treated fresh water as an infinite resource. Once you find a single source of fresh water, you can basically irrigate your whole civilization. I think water should be treated as a limited resource. People in cities consume some water. Irrigation consumes more water. You can get fresh water from rivers, lakes, and desalinization plants. If you take water from a river, there should be less available downstream. It should be possible to take all of the water from a river, thus drying it up for anyone downstream. You should be able to drain a lake in a similar fashion.

Water is a precious, precious commodity. I don't know if there have been any wars fought over water, but experts predict there will be (google "wars over water"). The western states of the US bicker constantly about water rights. Just in California, there are big fights between cities like Los Angeles and farmers who rely on lots of water to grow winter strawberries in what used to be desert. Then there's the draining of the Aral Sea in Central Asia.

Civilization games have had aqueducts, but we've never paid attention to where the water comes from. An aqueduct isn't a well, after all. Maybe cities start with a well that puts out some amount of water, but if you want more, you have to build an aqueduct to a lake or river (or be next to a lake or river). If you put out too much pollution, you should have less fresh water available. Cities downstream should suffer if your sewers empty directly into the river. If you build a wastewater treatment plant, that problem disappears. You can attack another civilization through water, by draining rivers before they get to them, by polluting their water, or by destroying their wastewater and desalinization plants. Thus, you could replace the arbitrary city size limits of civ3 with something a little more sensible. Perhaps it could tie into the civ4 concept of health. One of the biggest problems facing the Third World today is lack of access to clean water.

On a related subject, I would change how farming works. The vast majority of farms over the vast majority of human history have not been irrigated. Instead, farmers have had to rely on the rains. Look at what happens to India when the monsoon is weak. You shouldn't have to have irrigation to make a tile produce more food. Instead, you should be able to build a simple farm improvement. That represents plowing fields, sowing crops, keeping animals away, etc., but not irrigation. Farms increase food production a bit. Food from unfarmed land represents people wandering around and gathering whatever grows wild. If you have the technology (Construction?) to irrigate and access to a supply of fresh water, then you can irrigate your farmed fields and get even more food. In the late Industrial era, you can mechanize your farms, which uses oil and even more water to produce even more food.

On another related subject, I think units in the desert should risk getting hurt due to lack of fresh water. On the plus side, this makes oases something real, not just a rare form of desert. An oasis is a source of water in the desert that you can tap for a city or to irrigate some fields. In a large desert, it's a strategic location where units can rest without being baked under the sun in unforgiving terrain.
 
that is an exellent point ..i have never paid to much attention to it..maybe be cause i live in the great lakes basin. but there are many parts of the world were watering a lawn would be damn near a sin..good point..i just wonder if they'll implement it
 
I recently had a one tile island with aqueduct, which makes no sense. I agree totally to everything. There should also be water pollution, but I hjave no idea how it would work or how it would change the game.
 
mastertyguy said:
I recently had a one tile island with aqueduct, which makes no sense. I agree totally to everything. There should also be water pollution, but I hjave no idea how it would work or how it would change the game.

I think the easiest thing to do is to make it reduce the supply of fresh water. Let's say a river has 10 units of fresh water as it passes your city. You take 1 unit of fresh water and dump in 1 unit of pollution. Downstream, then the river is the same size, but has only 8 units of fresh water, as you took one and polluted another. The units and mechanism are arbitrary and just for the sake of illustration.
 
Use water instead of food to make cities grow? Or maby replace "or" with "and"?
 
apatheist said:
I think the easiest thing to do is to make it reduce the supply of fresh water. Let's say a river has 10 units of fresh water as it passes your city. You take 1 unit of fresh water and dump in 1 unit of pollution. Downstream, then the river is the same size, but has only 8 units of fresh water, as you took one and polluted another. The units and mechanism are arbitrary and just for the sake of illustration.

Won't happen. The coding would be too difficult.
Keep in mind, Civ IV is supposed to get simpler, instead of more complicated.
Not that I agree with that concept, but all interviews with the developers indicate that.

Now imagine the existing pseudocode.
It is probably something like this:

"if fresh_water_available == yes, then able_to_build_aquaduct = yes"
The default setting for able_to_build_aquaduct would be no.

Now consider your concept, which I do totally agree with in principle.
Coding looks more like thiis:

First thing program has to do is establish fresh water exists, and set the default value of usuable portions (will say 10 using your concept).
"if fresh_water_available == yes, then fresh_water_count = 10
Now, we have to test if we can build an aquaduct:
"if fresh_water_count > 0,
then (able_to_build_aquaduct = yes,
fresh_water_count = fresh_water_count - 1)
else able_to_build_aquaduct = no.

Now, consider that is the simplest of the possibilities. If you get into pollution, that is a whole set of problems that I can't even begin to imagine.

I would love to see if the SDK package will allow this kind of coding, but I doubt it. Will probably be too deep in the source code to allow it.
 
Because I have family in Arizona I find myself sympathizing with this idea to a relatively large degree. Water is finite in the current period. One would also have to take into account the water cycle though and thus the coding would become more difficult. The coding aside (because I really hate that excuse) the players themselves I think would be overwhelmed by the number of variables to keep up with in this concept. People would have to moniter whether it was a wet or dry year, how many cities are upstream, how much polution is going on, how many farms are drawing from the stream, are we using more water than is being added (through rain, etc.), is the water bad, what type of water is it, do we have rights to the water, and the list only continues from there. Ultimately I find the concept too demanding of the average civ player. I might support it if it came with a minister who would automanage the water supply but without it I could see myself being annoyed with the concept after the shiny new feeling wore off.
 
the general has a point...micro management would become nuts...the need for some things would be to great..its a really good concept..but i dont know if in the game it would work..maybe instead of Electronics alowing irrigation...a desalanation plant improvement should be nessicary..if not near a river...or a water mine in the desert...because i do agree that a city should in some way be responsible for the amount of irrigation. maybe a water system thats relitivly simple..just a basic(although probably not correct) system.
 
You could, I suppose, create a maximum radius that water could be brought out from its source. For example, I have a river with a city 7 spaces away. The maximum distance I can irrigate out to with my current technology is 3 spaces. That means I cannot irrigate into the city's radius currently but 10 turns down the road when I discover <insert water tech name here> I can get water out to a distance of 8 spaces so my city has water. This would keep cities in the early game near sources of water (Historically accurate!) but in the later game as technology becomes better we could be building in deserts (like Las Vegas).
 
It could be simpler, sure. I just gave the example that came to mind first. I don't think it would be a micromanagement nightmare, though. You wouldn't have to calculate anything; the game engine would do it for you. All you'd care about is how much water you have and whether and how you can get more. If you wanted to take it to another level, you'd look into how your neighbors were getting water and what you could do to make that easier or harder, and how they might do the same to you. It would still work at a pretty high level, though. I think a good balance is possible, though I readily admit that I haven't found it.

I don't think cities like Las Vegas, Los Angeles, and Phoenix came about because we discovered new ways of getting water, I think they came about because we shifted from an agricultural economy to an industrial and information economy, which don't need nearly as much water. That's rather US-centric, I realize, but I have no handy examples of other areas where the same thing is happening. Nevertheless, I think the idea of being able to get more water with advancing technology is a good one, though I would shun any distance type caps.
 
apatheist said:
It could be simpler, sure. I just gave the example that came to mind first. I don't think it would be a micromanagement nightmare, though. You wouldn't have to calculate anything; the game engine would do it for you. All you'd care about is how much water you have and whether and how you can get more. If you wanted to take it to another level, you'd look into how your neighbors were getting water and what you could do to make that easier or harder, and how they might do the same to you. It would still work at a pretty high level, though. I think a good balance is possible, though I readily admit that I haven't found it.

I don't think cities like Las Vegas, Los Angeles, and Phoenix came about because we discovered new ways of getting water, I think they came about because we shifted from an agricultural economy to an industrial and information economy, which don't need nearly as much water. That's rather US-centric, I realize, but I have no handy examples of other areas where the same thing is happening. Nevertheless, I think the idea of being able to get more water with advancing technology is a good one, though I would shun any distance type caps.

Frankly, I think you misunderstand what we are getting at when we say it is too complicated for the average civ player. It is obvious that the game engine will do all the calculations for you and the system will therefor function. We are trying to say that while you play the game you must take these elements into account to achieve any level of success. This idea would become so fundamental to cities in fact that it would be unlikely that it could be ignored. This ultimately creates too much complexity that must be addressed. Frankly, even given my propensity for complex gaming I probably would mod this aspect out for the sake of fun but not all gamers are skilled enough to do that. Furthermore, such changes require rebalancing. They upset the system and sometimes have more far reaching effects once removed than anticipated for whatever reason. This means complex systems prove to be such a burden no only in practice on the average player but in removal that it removes the marketability of the game and ultimately the fun.

As a second note I might point out to you that it is true that cities like Las Vegas did not come about due to more advanced water technology (as in that wasn't thier reason for founding) but they were made possible. Could we have founded a city without a nearby water source (and expected it to grow) in 1800? No, we couldn't and I again point to Las Vegas as a prime example. While it was founded in the 1800's, I believe, it did not grow in population significantly until the 20th century as better infrastructure was created through better technology and engineering.

None of this is to say I don't support such an idea. In fact, I would be an avid supporter of such an idea assuming it didn't overburden the gamer with a micromanagement mess. If this was implemented it would need a national level governor of its own if only to keep up with turn to turn changes in the water situation. This creates a disproportionately large issue out of a relatively mediocre anthill in real life. Afterall, I don't see a Department of Water Affairs in the US government and I would hate to see one in game. This concept must be implemented in a simple, easy to understand manner which requires relatively little attention to the turn to turn events of the area.
 
apatheist said:
It could be simpler, sure. I just gave the example that came to mind first. I don't think it would be a micromanagement nightmare, though. You wouldn't have to calculate anything; the game engine would do it for you.

When I say the game engine and coding becomes complex, I want to restate what I mean. Additional lines of code means more processing, which means more memory requirements, slower game response.
The more these features are added in, the slower the game gets.
This is not a trivial thing.
 
Texan General said:
We are trying to say that while you play the game you must take these elements into account to achieve any level of success. This idea would become so fundamental to cities in fact that it would be unlikely that it could be ignored. This ultimately creates too much complexity that must be addressed. Frankly, even given my propensity for complex gaming I probably would mod this aspect out for the sake of fun but not all gamers are skilled enough to do that.

I guess there's a balance, right? When you build an improvement or a unit, you have to make sure that you have the money to pay for it. When you declare war on another civ, you have to make sure you have the army to take them on. When you build a city, you have to make sure it has food. Every element of the game that adds interest also adds complexity. I don't think it's fair to say that this one is the straw that breaks the camel's back since we haven't even devised any mechanism for it. Civilization models some pretty complex things in simple and intuitive ways, things that are so well done that we don't even think about how they could have been done differently and take them for granted. I think applying time and consideration to this will make it as interesting and manageable as any of the significant concepts that were added in civ2, civ3, and the upcoming civ4.

Texan General said:
Furthermore, such changes require rebalancing. They upset the system and sometimes have more far reaching effects once removed than anticipated for whatever reason.

That's true of all changes, but civ has to evolve. Culture and unique units and civilization traits were all big things that needed to be balanced. It's just part of developing a new game.

Texan General said:
As a second note I might point out to you that it is true that cities like Las Vegas did not come about due to more advanced water technology (as in that wasn't thier reason for founding) but they were made possible. Could we have founded a city without a nearby water source (and expected it to grow) in 1800? No, we couldn't and I again point to Las Vegas as a prime example. While it was founded in the 1800's, I believe, it did not grow in population significantly until the 20th century as better infrastructure was created through better technology and engineering.

Just for the sake of my own curiosity, could you identify some of these advancements? As far as I know, Las Vegas gets its water from rivers, reservoirs, and drilling wells, none of which were out of reach to 19th century technology.

Texan General said:
This creates a disproportionately large issue out of a relatively mediocre anthill in real life. Afterall, I don't see a Department of Water Affairs in the US government and I would hate to see one in game.

It's called the Department of the Interior. Water politics are huge. Here are a few links for you:

California Farm Water Coalition: http://www.cfwc.com/

An article on a California Supreme Court ruling on water: http://www.sci.sdsu.edu/salton/HiCourtSideWFarmers.html

An agreement on water usage between the western states: http://www.waterconserve.info/articles/reader.asp?linkid=26390

To be less US-centric, here's a database of international treaties pertaining to fresh water: http://www.transboundarywaters.orst.edu/projects/internationalDB.html

Then there's the Aral Sea. Here's an article from the Harvard International Review that speculates there may be a war over water in Central Asia in the not too distant future: http://hir.harvard.edu/articles/934/

And, of course, the Middle East has big issues with water. To reiterate: fresh water has been an enormous issue in the past and will be an enormous issue in the future. We just happen to be lucky enough not to have to deal with it so much.

Texan General said:
This concept must be implemented in a simple, easy to understand manner which requires relatively little attention to the turn to turn events of the area.

I agree. I agree that I haven't proposed something that meets those requirements. I don't agree, however, that this concept is so inherently complex that it cannot meet those requirements.

I_batman said:
When I say the game engine and coding becomes complex, I want to restate what I mean. Additional lines of code means more processing, which means more memory requirements, slower game response.
The more these features are added in, the slower the game gets.
This is not a trivial thing.

Actually, compared to AI calculations, it is trivial. Not all lines of code are equal, and this would take only a few. This would just be a few hundred thousand basic arithmetic operations per turn, which, if you were ripping a DVD at the same time, might take as long as a millisecond on a 5-year old PC.
 
I like this idea. I think the best way to approach is to realize that a whole continent probably won't be irrigated from 1 small river, but fresh water is 'renewable' based on the natural ecology that made it in the first place. Best suggestion I have is just limit the number of tiles that 1 river tile can irrigate----like maybe 1:1 or 1:2.
 
apatheist said:
Actually, compared to AI calculations, it is trivial. Not all lines of code are equal, and this would take only a few. This would just be a few hundred thousand basic arithmetic operations per turn, which, if you were ripping a DVD at the same time, might take as long as a millisecond on a 5-year old PC.

I am afraid this discussion about whether the additional processing time is trivial or not is like the proverbial discussion of how many angels (or is it fairies?) can dance on a head of a pin. Until Civ IV comes out, and if that part of the code is accessible, I think the point in moot. We just don't know until someone figures out a way to mod the code to make it happen.

BTW, I completely agree about your RL views on water.
Here in Canada there is a certain North Dakota governor who is getting pretty close to being public enemy #1 because he thinks wiping out a 100 million dollar fishery in Manitoba is OK as long as he can flush polluted water full of parasites into the Red river system to clear up water problems in N. Dakota.
And that does not even go anywhere near the huge issues with the Great Lakes and the U.S. lobbying to get the OK to siphon water out of them for drinking and irrigation.
 
I didn't read everything, I hope i haven't been said.
Another problem with irrigation is that you can cut the source. If you want to irrigate bonus food only, but they haven't access to water, you can irrigate to the food bonus, then mine they previous irrigation. It makes no sense. And it would be easy to ameliorate.
 
mastertyguy said:
I recently had a one tile island with aqueduct, which makes no sense. I agree totally to everything. There should also be water pollution, but I hjave no idea how it would work or how it would change the game.


Actually that makes sense if the water around is in salt water, although a desalinization plant would be an issue.

Remember that an aqueduct is not only a sewer, but also trucks in fresh water (somehow).

That'd lead to another point---like should an aqueduct be a panacea? Shouldn't there be a finite limit to the total amount of freshwater in a civ's territory, being a limiting factor in city growth; Then the aqueduct should only help transport the fresh water, not magically make more fresh water from nothing.

Later technologies might boost the amount of drinkable water (desalinization, water drilling, etc..), and thereby increase the growth cap on a city.
 
Well, call it "truck of fresh water" instead of "aqueduct".
Civ is one of the most magical games I've seen!


Goodbye! Last post for 2 weeks. If you see me connected before then, somebody stole my account!
 
GoodGame said:
Remember that an aqueduct is not only a sewer, but also trucks in fresh water (somehow).

That'd lead to another point---like should an aqueduct be a panacea? Shouldn't there be a finite limit to the total amount of freshwater in a civ's territory, being a limiting factor in city growth; Then the aqueduct should only help transport the fresh water, not magically make more fresh water from nothing.

Later technologies might boost the amount of drinkable water (desalinization, water drilling, etc..), and thereby increase the growth cap on a city.

Yes, I agree. Aqueducts can't just create water out of nothing. I think an aqueduct should be a terrain improvement that connects the city with the water source. If the city is right next to the water source, then there's no need. This would make it possible to build cities far away from fresh water as well, if you can build a long enough aqueduct. And, like all terrain improvements, the aqueduct would be subject to attack.

I think aqueducts and sewers should be separate things. A sewer system would be a city improvement that appears with Sanitation, while an aqueduct is a terrain improvement that you can build after Construction.
 
Top Bottom