If you use the earlier construction of the factory to build wealth it will not pay off. The more production you have, the less alternatives to wealth remain. It might be tempting to have the extra production earlier and sometimes you may need it. But the long term solution would be to keep the money in the stockpile.
From demigod to klutz
- Thread starter walletta
- Start date
Ok, taking Murphy's Law into account, that's pretty close to 100%...
(For me it is, anyway... I always seem to get 8-9 turns 
)walletta
King
Those are interesting thoughts on the preferred tech path in the Industrial Age.
I have 'discovered' the Iroqoius in the course of wondering what an agricultural and commercial civ would be like. In the first outing, playing large continental, I launched a war against the most conveniently-situated enemy, Carthage, in the latter part of ancient times. Progress was made but it was slow, expensive and messy, with a lot of tidying up against Numidian mercenaries ambling about behind my lines, threatening the work force, supplies and even towns. They are a proper nuisance. In the end, the war cost too much, brought insufficient benefit and I was very dissatisfied with my handling of it - so I ditched that one, noting however what a first rate UU the MW is. In the second attempted, eventually discovered the start position was really very poor. Made note to self - don't include the Maya among the hand-picked opponents. They become awesome way too fast.
Third try, same set up (sans Maya): lost the race to philosophy to someone on the other continent so headed for literature, pre-building the Great Library on the way and eventually finishing it. Turned research off completely once I was sure I would win the race. Anarchy. Republic. Used the cash to put marketplaces in the core towns. Some harbours and aqueducts also. Carthage, once again a neighbour, demanded literature which I refused, precipitating a very long and still-continuing mainly defensive war in the course of which the Iroqoius have built the art of war, acquired a great military leader (now leading a mounted warrior army), almost finished the forbidden palace and the heroic epic, lost one far flung town but captured two others and destroyed vast numbers of mercenaries and medieval infantry. The Byzantines opportunistically joined in on Carthage's side but I have bribed their neighbours on the far side, Spain and France, to form an alliance against them. As I am not in an alliance against Carthage, I will make peace as soon as she is willing to call it a draw or better from my end, which looks like it will be soon, and try to exploit the alliance.
As soon as it looks as though education is going to put the Gt. Lib. out of commission, I'll put libraries in the main cities and switch the juice back on.
The conduct of offensive operations is probably my biggest weakness. What do those who have read it make of Cracker's Japan campaign (playing Egypt)?
I have 'discovered' the Iroqoius in the course of wondering what an agricultural and commercial civ would be like. In the first outing, playing large continental, I launched a war against the most conveniently-situated enemy, Carthage, in the latter part of ancient times. Progress was made but it was slow, expensive and messy, with a lot of tidying up against Numidian mercenaries ambling about behind my lines, threatening the work force, supplies and even towns. They are a proper nuisance. In the end, the war cost too much, brought insufficient benefit and I was very dissatisfied with my handling of it - so I ditched that one, noting however what a first rate UU the MW is. In the second attempted, eventually discovered the start position was really very poor. Made note to self - don't include the Maya among the hand-picked opponents. They become awesome way too fast.
Third try, same set up (sans Maya): lost the race to philosophy to someone on the other continent so headed for literature, pre-building the Great Library on the way and eventually finishing it. Turned research off completely once I was sure I would win the race. Anarchy. Republic. Used the cash to put marketplaces in the core towns. Some harbours and aqueducts also. Carthage, once again a neighbour, demanded literature which I refused, precipitating a very long and still-continuing mainly defensive war in the course of which the Iroqoius have built the art of war, acquired a great military leader (now leading a mounted warrior army), almost finished the forbidden palace and the heroic epic, lost one far flung town but captured two others and destroyed vast numbers of mercenaries and medieval infantry. The Byzantines opportunistically joined in on Carthage's side but I have bribed their neighbours on the far side, Spain and France, to form an alliance against them. As I am not in an alliance against Carthage, I will make peace as soon as she is willing to call it a draw or better from my end, which looks like it will be soon, and try to exploit the alliance.
As soon as it looks as though education is going to put the Gt. Lib. out of commission, I'll put libraries in the main cities and switch the juice back on.
The conduct of offensive operations is probably my biggest weakness. What do those who have read it make of Cracker's Japan campaign (playing Egypt)?
walletta
King
Well, the conduct of offensive ops is a breeze when the enemy has such a brittle empire as the Byzantines. Now I wish I hadn't joined both Spain and France into it since there is nothing to oppose the mighty Iroquois beyond a few spears and the odd longbowman. Peace with honour was made with Carthage (who paid me 3 gold - every penny she had) for the privilege. Now I must plunder Byzantine as fast as possible to keep the (pretty paltry) goodies out of foreign hands. Germany has no iron (or horses) and I have espied an extra supply which might come in handy when I want to bribe her to take Carthage from behind. Now making a bee-line for economics via banking (the Gt. Lib is out of commission now) in order to build the Smith thingy.
walletta
King
Holy guacamole! How did I miss this one? LOL - I don't think I've sold a coal plant in my life. I have simply assumed the hydro cuts pollution just like it says it does. Mama mia! My poor little workers have been scurrying about cleaning unnecessary mess when they could have been out and about planting giant, irrelevant, forests (which is what I get them to do to pass the time between outbreaks of actual things to do).
walletta
King
Question: is it an idea not to build coal plants in the core cities if, in doing so, shield production is raised to the 60+ range? The thing is, for munitions, the ideal number of shields is about 40-50 since the key units in the IA cost 80-100 each and thus take two turns. There is no point bashing them at out at 120-140 shields each. Then there is the pollution and then there is on top the fact that, if aiming for (and, ideally, getting) the Hoover Dam, you will never have needed the rotten, stinking things in the first place.
If you get the hooverdam soon you donnot need coal plants. Coal plants do as much pollution as factories, but are cheaper than factories. So you should not avoid building them at any cost either.
Much later nuclear plants are an effecient way to increase production.
Much later nuclear plants are an effecient way to increase production.
walletta
King
Thanks justanick. The point is that, unless you go for Hoover Dam before getting industrialisation (I assume this is possible) then you spend a lot of turns without factories, which actually are useful and necessary, and during those turns you can beef them up with coal plants pending the Dam. I was just making the point that 40-50 shields for a munitions town is a sufficient number if it can be achieved without coal plant. Even 30-34 might be better than 60-65.
Lord AJ
The Quartermaster
But why would you want smith's anyways. At this point I think there are better wonders like Copernicus observatory and newton's University available and I'd suggest you go at max speed to get these two. They can benefit much more in tech pace than saving a few bucks for maintenance using smith's.
Lord AJ
The Quartermaster
After getting a factory a 20 spt city (it isn't unusual to have size 12 cities churning out 20 Shields after railroading) goes up to 40spt which is quite sufficient to get units. I think it's better to build coal plants in the cities that you plan to be using for (pre )building wonders like ToE and hoovers.
walletta
King
Do you know the actual maths, AJ? This is something else I am not up to speed on. Right now, my capital is making 27 shields per turn. With the railroad, this will rise somewhat (I am not sure of the precise effect of rail on all the squares, which are mostly bonus desert and, er mud flats (the darker surface that yields 2g 1s 2f when irrigated and roared). Let's say it goes to 35. Now you put in a factory and that will increase production to what, 52? That is fine right there. If you lob in a coal plant you now have whatever a coal plant adds, another 17 or so I guess, so, nearly 70. You can't build any IA unit for 70. Infantry, artillery and cavalry are all 80-100. I guess it makes sense in the city that can build armies as there is no upper limit to the shields there above the cost of building one army. Aside from that, what are the extra shields for?
walletta
King
A tricky choice. I admit. I am also attracted by Banking then economics because these aren't likely to be the IA's first choice and so I may be able to trade them favourably.
Oh, I had another thought about IA trading - go for communism. The reason is that the IA values it ridiculously highly and will trade generously for it. Nor is it useless in itself (although it is more useless than I used to think it in view of recent experience).
Lord AJ
The Quartermaster
Oops sorry. [emoji28] I think I goofed up the calculations a bit. Factories give a 50 percent boost so you'll be up to 30-35spt for most cities (which include cities as far as your third ring) . But even that should be good enough to get infantry and cavalry in 3 turns. Although a city is producing a unit every 3 turns you'll still have a steady supply of these due to them being produced in Greater number of cities (as compared to getting them in 2 turns from lesser cities) .
As for the coal plants, I suggest you build them only in cities where you're prebuilding Wonders or if you want armies (these however are easier cash rushed than built by hand) . Paying maintenance for coal plants in towns where they're aren't really helping (as you said is a waste), even more so as they cause pollution and you're close to getting hoovers anyways. [emoji6]
Lord AJ
The Quartermaster
Communism, or any government for that matter is very valuable to the AI. But at the same time, government techs aren't cheap to research either. Steam power, I believe is the absolute necessity in the IA simply because of railroads. As for their effects, they increase +1 food for irrigated tiles and +1 shield for mined ones. After that you may switch to replaceable parts path or to industrialization (if in a 20k game and your 20k city needs Shields) or even sanitation if you missed the Shakespeare theatre. Communism on the other hand, requires that you first get nationalism (another not so cheap tech) and the only sure benefit you get is the ability to build police stations.
A few bucks?
Harbours cost 1 gtp
marketplaces cost 1 gtp
banks cost 1 gtp
stock exchanges cost 3 gtp
commerce harbours cost 2 gtp
airports cost 2 gtp.
Now if you have 40 cities out of which 20 can build harbours and thus commerce harbours, than you save 340 gtp. That is way more than the 52 beakers per turn you might get from a research wonder. Having both will still be better.
Lord AJ
The Quartermaster
Okay so you save lots of gold. But most of these cities are likely to be corrupt to such an extent that the benefits are hardly visible. Cities after the 2nd ring on a standard map are hardly effective at producing commerce due to loss in corruption. Also out of these 40 cities there'll be some cities that won't even be worth building stock exchanges in as they'll be producing nothing more than 3-4 gpt and a stock exchange would be a waste of Shields. As for airports, well they're not something we need in every one of our cities, just like we don't need barracks everywhere. Copernicus and Newton's however (which are also cheaper by the way) , instantly improve the research pace, generally gaining you a turn in your current research project as soon as they're built. Although Smith's should be considered if one fails to lay hands on any one of these two.
walletta
King
Well, I resolved these controversies once and for all, by missing Smith by 5 turns (aaarrrggghhhh!!) and later discovering there is no coal in my vast empire (aaaarrrgghhhhhh!!!). I must now make war on France, with whom I am on good terms, having a RoP, or Carthage with whom relations have been frosty ever since the war, even though it finished hundreds of years ago. Talk about bearing a grudge! And they started it too.
I have selected France. First, I think Carthage is more powerful, second, there is the immediate prospect of some dyes or silks (the red one, whatever) right across the frontier, third, France has a city right slap bang in the middle of the forner Byzantine bit of my empire which, by rights, ought to be mine and is an eyesore to look at and, fourth, their coal looks slightly easy to get at.
I have the tech lead in the early IA. I got industrialisation after steam and have now switched towards scientific method. Must try not to screw up the pre-build this time. The only larger power is the Netherlands on the other continent. Oddly, I am way down in the histograph but my advisers tell me not to worry about that.
Oh, funny was that I made peace with the Byzantines in which she handed over her last four cities, leaving her only the capital. One of these was in the far north of my continent, utterly useless, size 2 tundra town. So I gave that to Rome (whose civ is on the other continent) and it precipitated a humongous war in which the Germans marched a vast army across my land, with an RoP and my blessing, to take it. Alliances were formed and a general war broke out with me watching in bemusement at the folly of it. It's always better to resolve things peacefully, we Iroquois believe. Unless there's no coal, obviously.
I have selected France. First, I think Carthage is more powerful, second, there is the immediate prospect of some dyes or silks (the red one, whatever) right across the frontier, third, France has a city right slap bang in the middle of the forner Byzantine bit of my empire which, by rights, ought to be mine and is an eyesore to look at and, fourth, their coal looks slightly easy to get at.
I have the tech lead in the early IA. I got industrialisation after steam and have now switched towards scientific method. Must try not to screw up the pre-build this time. The only larger power is the Netherlands on the other continent. Oddly, I am way down in the histograph but my advisers tell me not to worry about that.
Oh, funny was that I made peace with the Byzantines in which she handed over her last four cities, leaving her only the capital. One of these was in the far north of my continent, utterly useless, size 2 tundra town. So I gave that to Rome (whose civ is on the other continent) and it precipitated a humongous war in which the Germans marched a vast army across my land, with an RoP and my blessing, to take it. Alliances were formed and a general war broke out with me watching in bemusement at the folly of it. It's always better to resolve things peacefully, we Iroquois believe. Unless there's no coal, obviously.
Having both is of course best...
But in situations where I have to choose one, while the other one will cascade to an AI, I will of course take a research wonder (e.g. Newton, because Copernicus will probably already have been built long before Smiths becomes available) any time.
The reasons are:
- The tech for Smiths is optional. In a fast research game I don't waste turns on optionals. Only delays the victory date by 4 turns... So I have to rely on the AI to come up with Economics. On Demigod the AI will probably be able to get it in time. Then I may build Smith after all.
- Smith is just as effective if the AI builds it for me and I then capture it. Copernicus/Newton however, need to be built by myself (e.g. in the capital or Forbidden Palace city) in order to be most effictive. So the research wonders get top priority, and Smith can be captured, if the opportunity presents itself (and if not, it doesn't matter much).
- You can get "gpt" in trades from the AI, but you can't get "bpt" from the AI! So it's better to increase your own "bpt" by building Cope/Newton (and let the AI cover your expenses for harbors, markets etc by selling them obsolete techs), than to increase yor available "gpt" with Smith.
In some cases this may actually be the difference between being able to keep the 4-turn tech pace at the beginning of the IA or not.
walletta
King
I am way off this 4-turn tech pace thing in the IA. How the heck are you doing that? I have libraries and universities in all my major cities and scientists working wherever there is food to spare. I have just started researching replaceable parts and it's going to take me 9 turns or so. I have the tech lead and am the no. 1 nation in pop. GNP etc. (only temporarily as I have no coal and the neighbours are building railroads, not to mention hospitals - as I by-passed sanitation to get to scientific method first)
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
If you get rails built,
So what are you waiting for? Go and get that Coal! Joanie doesn't deserve to keep it!
