From demigod to klutz

[Lord AJ]

Weird. I started a standard size demigod continental Maya game, managed the slingshot and went into anarchy in 1500 BC (no ***t) came out, played a few turns and realised I was still in anarchy! Two things are possible: (1) I clicked the wrong button or (2) there is some earliest possble date barrier that I don't know about.

ETA, I meant to say I was still in despotism, not anarchy. That really would be a bummer.

You obviously pressed the wrong button. There's no earliest date barrier for sure. I once got Republic in 2030 BC playing as Russia on a standard map.

 

[walletta]

You obviously pressed the wrong button. There's no earliest date barrier for sure. I once got Republic in 2030 BC playing as Russia on a standard map.

What a klutz! I thought I was off to a dream start! As I couldn't face going through another round of avoidable anarchy I trashed that one.

Question: is there a record for earliest transit to Republic? 2030 BC sounds like a good starting candidate. What level was that, AJ? Please don't say demigod.

 

[justanick]

Russia at warlord is a good choice to utilize goody huts. At Warlord you get a tech at 35% chance, at demigod at 28.7%, At Deity at 20% and at Sid as zero percent.

So yes it is posible at demigod, if you utilize the expansionist ability to the best.

 

[Lord AJ]

What a klutz! I thought I was off to a dream start! As I couldn't face going through another round of avoidable anarchy I trashed that one.

Question: is there a record for earliest transit to Republic? 2030 BC sounds like a good starting candidate. What level was that, AJ? Please don't say demigod.

Demigod- no way. That as far as I remember was a Chieftain game for the HoF where I was aiming for diplomatic win. And from what I remember, with the same map and difficulty Sandman2003, SirPleb and DaveMcW(in a spaceship game) also entered Republic somewhere around 1900 - 2000 BC. You can find the games and the writeups in the Hof. Just look for diplomatic victories on standard map size, at Chieftain.

 

[Lord AJ]

Russia at warlord is a good choice to utilize goody huts. At Warlord you get a tech at 35% chance, at demigod at 28.7%, At Deity at 20% and at Sid as zero percent.

So yes it is posible at demigod, if you utilize the expansionist ability to the best.

That was the reason for choosing Russia. Goody huts are the key to such early dates. Although I doubt if that's even possible on Demigod because post-emperor, techs are not easy to pop from huts.

 

[Lanzelot]

What about spears to hold the captured towns? Do you figure on not using catapults either?

If you are defending, you are doing something wrong... (Seems like justanick and me both like that expression... )
No, seriously, I will probably bring 2-3 pikes for defending my MI stack against counter-attacks, but that's all. Artillery type units (Trebuchets in this case) are necessary only when up against stronger units. In this case, however, India does not yet have Feudalism, so spearmen is the best I will encounter. So better to lose an MI once in a while than delaying the campaign by first building a sufficient number of Trebs, which also eat a big hole into your pocket. If I were up against musketmen by this time, I would include half a dozen Trebs in my stack, but as it is, I just go with MIs. They'll slice through India like a hot knife through butter.

Do you know a sure way of making India declare war on you? It seems to make a big difference to the people.

There are two ways I know of, but neither one is 100% sure and neither one seems to be applicable here (or at least not sensible to do):

• Trap a unit of theirs inside your borders, then make them furious by repeatedly asking for tribute (towns and stuff) and then ask them to "leave or declare". In 99% of the cases they will declare. But if your military is too strong compared to them, they will simply leave...
  I currently have a RoP with India, so that won't work. (Don't know off the top of my head when it will expire. If it does before I'm done with the preparations, I might try it.)
• Declare war against somebody else (X). Then renegotiate the peace deal with India and add a military alliance against X to that peace deal. Wait, and if you are lucky, India will sign peace with X, before the 20 turns are up. So the break the deal, which at the same time also breaks the peace treaty, putting you in a state of war with them and providing war happiness. (Details are explained under "MAPT deals" in the strategy forum.)
  This is neither reliable nor predictable, so I won't use it here. It is mainly used in space race games as a means for fishing for war happiness in order to speed up research, but not necessarily in military games.

Another question, Lanzelot, if you don't mind. Assuming you play on (I appreciate you may not be interested) would you divide your army or send it forward in one great, irresistible lump? Also, do you check to see whether India is building/has built any wonders and, if so, prioritise your attack accordingly?

It just occurs to me that the timing of setting up an embassy might be usefully co-ordinated with an invasion, in order to get that one turn look at what is being built in the capital to see whether it's a GW and, if so, how many turns before completion because it might be worth delaying until it's finished. A good plan might be to place embassies in Civ's that share a frontier with the target Civ in order to bribe them into joining in so as to weaken the target further.

I would probably devide the army into two columns of 10+ MIs guarded by 2 pikes. Embassies are not needed for checking for wonders: just open F7... Here we see, that India has nothing useful.

But anyway: I already have embassies with every known nation... Opening an embassy and signing a RoP makes them polite and reduces the risk of an attack. And as I didn't want to get involved in any wars, and since I had enough cash lying around, I made these embassies and RoPs long ago and always renewed them. (Worked ok so far: even though there were already quite a few wars going on among them and despite my army consisting only of warriors for quite some time, I have never been attacked.)

In the turn before the attack I will gift them Republic. Then they will spend the first 3-5 turns of the war in anarchy and will neither be able to pop-rush defenders nor produce them...
And yes, signing up Rome and perhaps Byzanz against them is a good idea. The tech lead can be used for bribing them. This serves two purposes: a) it weakens India's army even more and b) it prevents them from signing up Rome against me...

 

[Lanzelot]

Although I doubt if that's even possible on Demigod because post-emperor, techs are not easy to pop from huts.

As pointed out by justanick someplace else, even on Deity an expansionist civ still has a probability of 20% for poping a tech from a hut. Nevertheless I think it does no longer work on Demigod, simply because the insame number of AI starting units, that can go scouting right from turn 0, will have popped most huts before you get to them...

For example in the current game, I saw only like 3-4 un-popped huts (not counting the one next to my capital, which gave me angry barbs), and I quickly had 3-4 warriors out scouting and have already mapped almost our entire continent except for a small portion of the north east. (Of course I avoided opening them...)

 

[Lord AJ]

As pointed out by justanick someplace else, even on Deity an expansionist civ still has a probability of 20% for poping a tech from a hut. Nevertheless I think it does no longer work on Demigod, simply because the insame number of AI starting units, that can go scouting right from turn 0, will have popped most huts before you get to them...

For example in the current game, I saw only like 3-4 un-popped huts (not counting the one next to my capital, which gave me angry barbs), and I quickly had 3-4 warriors out scouting and have already mapped almost our entire continent except for a small portion of the north east. (Of course I avoided opening them...)

That's what I meant. Huts, even with expansionist, can't be used to get techs on a standard map because with the AI getting 4+ units to explore post-emperor simply makes it impossible to have many huts to be popped by the human player. And it's even lesser probable that you get techs from those few and finally an almost negligible chance at getting the techs needed for the Republic path.

Although this can be achieved if one plays with this as the sole objective (by choosing lesser opponents, obviously non-expansionist, starting alone on a large landmass, etc.) but that wouldn't be any fun.

 

[walletta]

If you are defending, you are doing something wrong... (Seems like justanick and me both like that expression... )
No, seriously, I will probably bring 2-3 pikes for defending my MI stack against counter-attacks, but that's all. Artillery type units (Trebuchets in this case) are necessary only when up against stronger units. In this case, however, India does not yet have Feudalism, so spearmen is the best I will encounter. So better to lose an MI once in a while than delaying the campaign by first building a sufficient number of Trebs, which also eat a big hole into your pocket. If I were up against musketmen by this time, I would include half a dozen Trebs in my stack, but as it is, I just go with MIs. They'll slice through India like a hot knife through butter.

Interesting, thanks. I would have though you would want to garrison captured towns to help prevent flipping (as well as defending against counter attack).

There are two ways I know of, but neither one is 100% sure and neither one seems to be applicable here (or at least not sensible to do):

• Trap a unit of theirs inside your borders, then make them furious by repeatedly asking for tribute (towns and stuff) and then ask them to "leave or declare". In 99% of the cases they will declare. But if your military is too strong compared to them, they will simply leave...
  I currently have a RoP with India, so that won't work. (Don't know off the top of my head when it will expire. If it does before I'm done with the preparations, I might try it.)
• Declare war against somebody else (X). Then renegotiate the peace deal with India and add a military alliance against X to that peace deal. Wait, and if you are lucky, India will sign peace with X, before the 20 turns are up. So the break the deal, which at the same time also breaks the peace treaty, putting you in a state of war with them and providing war happiness. (Details are explained under "MAPT deals" in the strategy forum.)
  This is neither reliable nor predictable, so I won't use it here. It is mainly used in space race games as a means for fishing for war happiness in order to speed up research, but not necessarily in military games.

I like the first, but the second, while ingenious, sounds risky. I did not know that another civ breaking off an alliance early entitles me to go to war with them.

I would probably devide the army into two columns of 10+ MIs guarded by 2 pikes. Embassies are not needed for checking for wonders: just open F7... Here we see, that India has nothing useful.

But while F7 will tell you something is under construction in Delhi, say, it will not tell you the number of turns to completion. If it's just two, say, then best to let them finish, but if it's 20 you might just pile in.

But anyway: I already have embassies with every known nation... Opening an embassy and signing a RoP makes them polite and reduces the risk of an attack. And as I didn't want to get involved in any wars, and since I had enough cash lying around, I made these embassies and RoPs long ago and always renewed them. (Worked ok so far: even though there were already quite a few wars going on among them and despite my army consisting only of warriors for quite some time, I have never been attacked.)

So would you be prepared to break a RoP with India?

In the turn before the attack I will gift them Republic. Then they will spend the first 3-5 turns of the war in anarchy and will neither be able to pop-rush defenders nor produce them...
And yes, signing up Rome and perhaps Byzanz against them is a good idea. The tech lead can be used for bribing them. This serves two purposes: a) it weakens India's army even more and b) it prevents them from signing up Rome against me...

This is ultra fiendish.

 

[justanick]

That was the reason for choosing Russia. Goody huts are the key to such early dates. Although I doubt if that's even possible on Demigod because post-emperor, techs are not easy to pop from huts.

Well, 35% vs. 28.7% are not that much of a difference.

@Walletta: Simply start a game as russia or the hitties vs. only one nation, preferably babylon, on a standardmap or a large map. Spam out scouts and farm those goody huts. You should be superior in tech in no time.

 

[walletta]

Well, 35% vs. 28.7% are not that much of a difference.

@Walletta: Simply start a game as russia or the hitties vs. only one nation, preferably babylon, on a standardmap or a large map. Spam out scouts and farm those goody huts. You should be superior in tech in no time.

This does not appeal. But thank you for the suggestion. IN fact, the tech lead in the ancient era is not a problem. With, and sometimes without, the slingshot, I can arrive in the MA in the lead, or close to it. The problem your and others' posts have encouraged me to focus on is the transition from one era to the next because, coming out the other side, the AI seems to take off and within a very few turns I find I am falling behind rapidly. Now, with your helpful comments on the way Republic works and Lanzelot's military advice, I think I can hope to play this crucial phase of the game better.

 

[Lord AJ]

Talking of huts and expansionist, I noticed that gotm 142 is a monarch diplomatic game with Russia as the civilization. [emoji1] So you might as well try it to see the goody huts in action. [emoji6]

 

[walletta]

Talking of huts and expansionist, I noticed that gotm 142 is a monarch diplomatic game with Russia as the civilization. [emoji1] So you might as well try it to see the goody huts in action. [emoji6]

I know how the huts work already. I have been using the Maya to farm slaves from popped huts and encampments. In some games, they get vast hordes of them and in others, next to nothing. Sometimes, the barbs bump off JT after JT. It is most frustrating when that happens. It may be better to switch 'em off but in that case I may as well play with a different civ, the Sumerians being a distinct possibility.

 

[tjs282]

In the turn before the attack I will gift them Republic. Then they will spend the first 3-5 turns of the war in anarchy and will neither be able to pop-rush defenders nor produce them...

This caught my eye, so I have to ask: The Indians were Religious in Vanilla/PtW -- was that then changed for C3C? If not, that means only 2T of Anarchy between govs...

 

[justanick]

Only 2 turns. Religios civs always get 2 turns, even at Sid when all other AIs get zero turns of anarchy. So choose a religios civs as your enemy.

 

[tjs282]

Interesting, thanks. I would have though you would want to garrison captured towns to help prevent flipping (as well as defending against counter attack).

If you have Culture-flips ON, you shouldn't garrison a captured town (with a massive stack) longer than 1T if you can avoid it -- remember, that's how long the 'guaranteed zero-flip probability' lasts. Because at higher levels it's very unlikely that you'll be able to build a big enough stack(s) to both completely zero the flip-risk in a newly-captured town for the couple of turns that doing so is likely to need, and still have enough forces free to be able to push forwards.

What I (try to) do is to move the victorious stack in for 1T, fortify them to quell as many as resistors as possible in that one IBT, then send the stack on to its next target(s). The captured town may flip back, but so what? If my leading stack(s) was/were successful in their subsequent attacks, the flipper should (hopefully) now be an enclave within my territory, cut off from its capital (i.e. no access to Lux or StratRes that are outside its own BFC). And if I have follow-up troops passing it on their way to the front, I can (hopefully) detour a couple into the town to kill the 1-2 measly defender(s) which have automagically appeared, and retake it. Or my troops can simply bypass it on the way to the more recently captured one(s) -- it's not going to exert any further Cultural pressure on its own, since all its (non-Wondrous) culture-buildings would have been destroyed when I took it the first time.

Until that town's fully under my control (no resistors), it's not going to do anything productive for me anyway. So if my units aren't in there if/when a flip happens, I've really 'lost' nothing -- except the town itself and the mobility advantage from the (partial) restoration of the AICiv's previous borders. OTOH, if I did have a large stack in there if/when it flips, then I just lost a big part of my military, which could be a disaster...

 

[walletta]

Haha. Well I described such a disaster upthread (more like a cataclysm actually, since I lost two armies). I don't like the loss of communications resulting from the roads not being usable but then if you attack on a broad enough front, I guess this shouldn't be the problem it tends to be in my games, in which there is usually only a single axis of advance.

 

[tjs282]

Only 2 turns. Religios civs always get 2 turns, even at Sid when all other AIs get zero turns of anarchy. So choose a religios civs as your enemy.

Is this yet another AI-buff (and yet one more reason not to play) at Sid-level? All AICivs (except Religious) always get 0T-Anarchy?

Or do you simply mean that 0T is one of the possible random-draw results (from 0-9T?) for any non-Religious AICiv -- with the Religious Civs always drawing 2T?

 

[Lanzelot]

So would you be prepared to break a RoP with India?

Depends on the desired VC. If going for a UN victory I would probably avoid it. If going for domination/conquest, I would say "who cares..."
Or rather, I would check how many more turns it has. I think I still need like 5 turns for finishing the preparations. If the RoP only runs for another 7 turns, I would wait those two extra turns. But if it runs for another 15, well then

 

[justanick]

it's not going to exert any further Cultural pressure on its own, since all its (non-Wondrous) culture-buildings would have been destroyed when I took it the first time.

Still it keeps the old culture, so if it had 1000+ culture before taking it, than it will still have 1000+ culture after flipping back. That can be inconvenient at times. Keeping a small offensive stack adjacent to the city can be a measure to reduce any inconvenience to a minimum.

Until that town's fully under my control (no resistors), it's not going to do anything productive for me anyway.

Well, it might give you something productive, just a lot less than when fully under your controll. You can spurt out settlers by disbanding and any scientist will give you full value, too.

Is this yet another AI-buff (and yet one more reason not to play) at Sid-level? All AICivs (except Religious) always get 0T-Anarchy?

It is the maximum, therefore it always applies. As AI is very eager to change government is somewhat understandable why this help was introduced.