From great questions...

[Cyc]

I can live with that. As long as the Culture Minister is aware of the responsibility and is willing to do it everytime we start Wonder, Great or Small. I can see how changing the standard in comparision to our current defensive or offensive unit value might be a good thing.

 

[Sir Donald III]

I was about to write up a Proposed Poll, but then I looked at subsection A again.
The section itself says that if you already have more shields than Culture declares expendable, that you can't request a change.
However, the subsection within that says that if we have more shields than is declared expendable, that Subsection A does not apply.

Which means we're only a Veto Poll away from returning to the current status quo.

I think I know what I was thinking when I wrote that subsection. THAT was to be the "out" for if a Foreign Power ousted us on a Great Wonder. However, I think we have a better one in Subsection b(2).

So, how about this: New parts in Bold, removed parts are struck out

Section D(1):
a. A Wonder or Small Wonder build is Vetoable by the voting populace, ONLY IF the city building it loses no more than an "acceptable" number of shields or turns of production by switching to a different Unit, Improvement, or Wonder, and by a Majority of "Stop Building" Votes in a Veto Poll.
a(1). If there is an occasion where a Unit, Improvement, Small Wonder, or Wonder requiring more shields than have already been devoted to the project does not exist, then the Standard in subsection (a) will not apply.

b. A "Veto Poll" will be set up for 48 Hours and have this format:
Should we continue to build $WONDER0 in $CITY1 ?
Continue Building
Stop Building
Abstain.
If a majority of the Citizens vote to "Stop Building", the city's build queue is returned to its respective Governor. Otherwise, the Wonder build still stands.
b(1). If an investigation of a foreign city reveals that that city would build a Great Wonder before the Japanatican City in contention for that Great Wonder, then the "Standard" in subsection (a) and the "Veto Poll" in subsection (b) will not apply, and the Culture Minister can decide to abort or continue, without a poll.
b(2). If a rival nation finishes a Great Wonder that a Japanatican city is constructing, then the build will be changed to any project that requires more shields than are currently in the shield box. If this is not possible, then any project may be completed. The Culture Minister and the Respective Governor are encouraged to list their contingency preferences in the TCIT.

c. The Culture Ministry is responsible for setting the Standard referenced in section (a) and posting the Veto Poll.
c(1). The Culture Ministry will specify the Standard for any new Wonder and Small Wonder Builds in the Instruction Thread for the Turnchat immediately following the start of the build.
c(2). If no Standard is specified by the Culture Ministry by the beginning of that said subsequent Turnchat, then the Standard is assumed to be 1 Turn's worth of the building city's Production.

d. The War Ministry may call for a Veto Poll, regardless of build status, if units from a nation at war with Japanatica is within 2 turns of attacking that city. However, in such an instance, if the Veto Poll passes, the War Ministry may only order a Unit build that can be built within 1 turn (including shields already committed) that can attempt to hinder the enemy attack. The Culture Ministry is still responsible for creating the Veto Poll.

Ok, like, dislike, other thoughts?

 

[Cyc]

Looks good to me. The only thing that looks scary is the word any in the second sentance of b(2)'

If this is not possible, then any project may be completed.

That brings up memories of a situation we had in Zojoji. Can we revise this at all?

 

[Provolution]

....then any project may be completed with a minimum waste of production, preferrably major buildings or another wonder project.

 

[Sir Donald III]

The Section as stands requires that a Project that costs even 1 shield more than what is currently in the Box be considered first. Only if there are no such projects can the DP then go whilly nilly, with leave from the Governor and the Culture Ministry. i.e. Culture and Governor can put up their recommendations and the dP has to act pick 1 of the 2.

 

[Cyc]

Ok. Just wanted to get all this in writing in case I someday needed to return and capture the intent of the author.

 

[Provolution]

I would also like a rider with an impeachment clause, since this will be consitutional, since I want future Presidents, Vice Presidents or any minister being DP, to have a rider that gross waste of shields in ilegally stoppping a wonder project may lead to impeachment.
I do not think Sd3 would create such a situation, but we still have Term 5, 6 and 7-

 

[Sir Donald III]

To modify, to fit Provo's suggestion:

b(2). If a rival nation finishes a Great Wonder that a Japanatican city is constructing, then the build will be changed to any project that requires more shields than are currently in the shield box. If this is not possible, then any project may be completed, preferably with a minimum of waste. The Culture Minister and the Respective Governor are encouraged to list their contingency preferences in the TCIT.

Thoughts?

 

[Provolution]

Sounds good to me, but more teeth would be nice. we need more rider clauses suggesting what a violation means.

 

[Cyc]

The word preferably might fly in a court of law, let's get some virtual ink on a proposed poll (if Provolution is satisfied).

 

[Provolution]

I suggest the following worind, so it noe only might fly in the court as cyc said, but be a real killer with few defenses or lame excuses, with this wording.
I do not want another Waterfate scandal, which kept us landlocked for some 3 000 years unnecessarily.

b(2). If a rival nation finishes a Great Wonder that a Japanatican city is constructing, then the build will be changed to any project that requires more shields than are currently in the shield box. If this is not possible, then any project may be completed, with absolute and binding preference to an absolute minimum of waste. The Culture Minister and the Respective Governor are encouraged to list their contingency preferences in the TCIT.

 

[Cyc]

Just so you know, Provo "with absolute and binding preference to an absolute minimum of waste" did nothing to improve SDIII's statement in your favor. This is why the word "any" worried me. It's a difficult thought to put into words.

 

[Provolution]

LOL @ Cyc, this is for the Embryons to poll the right punishment when we cite the law, not for a courtroom maverick as you. Call it public education in legal matters hehe

 

[Sir Donald III]

Actually, if anything should be "binding" in the latter half of B(2), (i.e. where waste is a certainty,) it should be the preferences (if expressed) of the Culture Ministry and the Governor, these being coequal in that scenario only.

 

[Provolution]

President Sd3

I agree wholeheartedly, I just fear the feeble jurors voting for a small warning, where final extermination of the officer is the best and most fair solution.

 

[Sir Donald III]

This is a Proposed Poll for the addition of a Section to the Code of Laws. This section pertains to Wonder and Small Wonder builds, when they can be aborted, and the Culture Minister's power therein. Please Review the Legislation carefully before voting.

Section D(1):
a. A Wonder or Small Wonder build is Vetoable by the voting populace, ONLY IF the city building it loses no more than an "acceptable" number of shields or turns of production by switching to a different Unit, Improvement, or Wonder, and by a Majority of "Stop Building" Votes in a Veto Poll.

b. A "Veto Poll" will be set up for 48 Hours and have this format:
Should we continue to build $WONDER0 in $CITY1 ?
Continue Building
Stop Building
Abstain.
If a majority of the Citizens vote to "Stop Building", the city's build queue is returned to its respective Governor. Otherwise, the Wonder build still stands.

c. The Culture Ministry is responsible for setting the "Acceptable" Standard referenced in section (a) and posting the Veto Poll.
c(1). The Culture Ministry will specify the Standard for any new Wonder and Small Wonder Builds in the Instruction Thread for the Turnchat immediately following the start of the build.
c(2). If no Standard is specified by the Culture Ministry by the beginning of that said subsequent Turnchat, then the Standard is assumed to be 1 Turn's worth of the building city's Production after Corruption.

d. If an investigation of a foreign city reveals that that city would build a Great Wonder before the Japanatican City in contention for that Great Wonder, then the "Standard" in subsection (a) and the "Veto Poll" in subsection (b) will not apply, and the Culture Minister can decide to abort or continue, without a poll.
d(1). If a rival nation finishes a Great Wonder that a Japanatican city is constructing, then the build will be changed to any project that requires more shields than are currently in the shield box. If this is not possible, then any project may be completed, preferably with a minimum of waste. The Culture Minister and the Respective Governor are encouraged to list their contingency preferences in the TCIT.

e. The War Ministry may request a Veto Poll, regardless of the amount of waste, if units from a nation at war with Japanatica is within 2 turns of attacking that city. However, in such an instance, if the Veto Poll passes, the War Ministry may only order a Unit build that can be built within 1 turn (including shields already committed) that can attempt to hinder the enemy attack. The Culture Ministry is still responsible for creating the Veto Poll.

Please Vote:
YES, I approve the Article as written
NO, I do not approve
ABSTAIN, I have no opinion

This poll will be open for 72 hours, and is Subject to Section I (1) of the Code of Laws.

Discussion can be found here


----
Ok. The final changes are to separate the "foreign contingencies" from the rest of Section b. Here's how it goes.
Section a: General statement, and establishes the Standard.
Section b: Defines the Veto Poll.
Section c: Sets the powers of the Culture Minister with respect to the Standard
Section d: Sets what to do in case of impossible or very unlikely build.
Section e: Allows for an imminent military emergency.

No actual text changes since this past Thursday. Reorganization only.

Ok, Need Second and Third here.

 

[Ashburnham]

I don't approve of Section E in your proposal, SD3. If there were in fact an "imminent military emergency" on a certain city, we would all be equally concerned, and all equally willing to avert the threat. In that case, the Culture Minister could veto the Wonder without being ordered to do so by the Defense Minister. Also, your use of the word "call" is questionable as well. Is the "call" an actual order? Or is it just a request? If it's simply a request, I see no reason to include Section E as a clause, and if it's an order I would have to contest this because it is an illegal infringement of the Culture Minister's authority by the Defense Ministry. In either case, I think it should be removed, as it is either unecessary or outright illegal.

 

[Sir Donald III]

I'm thinking more along the lines of "request" than "order". Reason being that "The culture Minister is still responsible..."

Then again, if we take Subsection E out, then the rest of this Section says that a build can only be cancelled IF:
A: Any waste is below an "acceptable" standard OR
B: If a Foreign power completes or is forecasted to complete that Wonder before we do.

If we were under imminent attack, and the waste was above what was "acceptable", then cancelling the build for Defnese would have been illegal without Section E's exception. The reason why the War Ministry is referenced in that section is that it's his/her job to assess any Military threat to our Nation, and thus would provide Culture with a report that $Citybuild1 is within direct threat.

It's kind of like it is with Upgrades. War must request upgrades, Domestic signs off on them. But Domestic cannot just approve upgrades without War's request citing DG5JR22 (I think...)

Restart the Clock!

 

[Ashburnham]

A good point, SD3. I just didn't like the implication that it was the MSAV making the decision instead of Culture. Perhaps a little rewording is in order..

e. An emergency Veto Poll may be requested, regardless of the amount of waste, if units from a nation at war with Japanatica are within 2 turns of attacking that city, and if the Culture Ministry also approves of the need. However, in such an instance, if the Veto Poll passes, the War Ministry may only order a Unit build that can be built within 1 turn (including shields already committed) that can attempt to hinder the enemy attack.

..better?

 

[Sir Donald III]

Debated it the past day... don't see any problems with your sugestion, Ash.

How about this:

e. An emergency Veto Poll may be requested, regardless of the amount of waste, if units from a nation at war with Japanatica are within 2 turns of attacking that city, and if the Culture Ministry also approves of the need. In such an instance, if the Veto Poll passes, the War Ministry takes control of the immediate build. However, it may only order a Unit build that can be built within 1 turn (including shields already committed, is allowed to generate waste,) that can attempt to hinder the enemy attack. The queue beyond this returns to the respective Governor.