From great questions...

[Furiey]

Ah - so now you're saying that the Defence Minister (don't think he's/it's called the War Minister/Ministry in the Constitution) can override the Governor's Build Queue in these circumstances, when the Culture Minister can not override the Governor to put the Wonder there in the first place.

Sorry, but no, it is the Governor's responsibility for build queues, and the Governor, not the Defence Minister who should say what the queue is if a Wonder is no longer to be built. Of course in these circumstances it would be an unwise Governor that would not listen to the request of the Defence Minister.

I would also prefer to see what the Wonder Build is to be changed to as part of any stop Wonder poll, requiring the cooperation of all Officials involved in the decision at the time of the poll. In my mind, what the build is to be changed to and the waste involved in doing so is part of the stop build decision.

 

[Ashburnham]

Looks good to me. Poll away.

 

[Cyc]

I was going to say that "I would normally side with Furiey's points above on this issue, but... the MA, Defense Minister, whatever would have achieved the WOTP with his call to Veto". With the WOTP behind him, I didn't see a problem. But then I reread it and Furiey makes the point that the Culture Minister can not override the Governor to put the Wonder there in the first place. Well the Cultural Minister had the WOTP in hand when (and if) the approval poll for the Wonder was passed. But the CM is still not allowed to override the Governor. Hmm. I like it when people make me think. What to do?

With any other Veto Poll, if successful, the build queue is returned to the respective Governor. So that we keep with the norms we have tried so hard to establish (for example, Governors are in charge of build queues), maybe we can change the wording one more time.

As you explained earlier SD3, the MA's call for a Veto Poll is an authoritive request. It's a request that the CM must abide by IF certain conditions are met. Therefore I'm thinking that if the Veto Poll passes and the Wonder is to be changed, then the MA would be allowed to request the unit to be built. In most situation that arise like this there would probably be only one logical unit to choose anyway. So I don't really see a problem having the wording of Section E say that if the Wonder is Vetoed, then the build queue is returned to the respective Governor, AND you could also add that the MA must or can make a formal request (or call) for a specific unit at the time of the poll.

 

[ravensfire]

So long as it's understood that the ultimate control of build queues resides with the Governors, I'm happy. Likewise, this means that a Governor that ignores a valid request by a leader, backed by a poll, exposes themself to a potential CC over the matter. The DP should only have to look at a Governor's post for build queue information, never anywhere else.

-- Ravensfire

 

[blackheart]

So long as it's understood that the ultimate control of build queues resides with the Governors, I'm happy. Likewise, this means that a Governor that ignores a valid request by a leader, backed by a poll, exposes themself to a potential CC over the matter. The DP should only have to look at a Governor's post for build queue information, never anywhere else.

-- Ravensfire

Ravensfire is 100% correct. Governor's are also submissive to the WOTP. If they fail to carry it out, it's chop chop. Having all build ques in one place makes it a lot easier for the DP.

 

[Provolution]

I think Ravensfire and Blacjheart hit the nail 100 % here, Governors are applicable to the WOTP, but I really have little problems with cooperation in general regarding buildqueues.
So far these had good consensus. If a crisis should emerge, the polls will decide.

 

[blackheart]

I think Ravensfire and Blacjheart hit the nail 100 % here, Governors are applicable to the WOTP, but I really have little problems with cooperation in general regarding buildqueues.
So far these had good consensus. If a crisis should emerge, the polls will decide.

*gasp* We can agree on something!

 

[Sir Donald III]

How about this then:

e: e. An emergency Veto Poll may be requested, regardless of the amount of waste, if units from a nation at war with Japanatica are within 2 turns of attacking that city, and if the Culture Ministry also approves of the need. In such an instance, if the Veto Poll passes, only a military unit may be built in the wonder's place. Such a unit must cost no more than the number of shields already generated plus the number of shields that can be generated in 1 turn. The War Ministry may advise the respective Governor on what unit to build. The Governor would afterwards have no restrictions on the queue past this build.

I was going to make it "The War Minister may advise the respective Governor on what unit to build, with a preference towards blunting the attack if at all possible," but if the WM doesn't do that anyway, he'd probably be called on the carpet for incompetence.

This would also eliminate a contradiction with Section (b), since that implies the BQ is returned to the Governor. (Implying that Culture has it for the duration of the Wonder Build.)

 

[blackheart]

I think you should reword on which unit can be built. It ties our hands if we ever need an expensive unit.

 

[Black_Hole]

We dont need the military advisor or cultural advisor having this "veto poll"
they can post a poll as a citizen , but not as a minister. if they dont want something they can start a discussion/poll on it, but it shouldnt be within their power to post a veto poll, because ministers are allowed to interperet polls and discussions their way, so the military minister could interperet the poll in his way instead of having the governor do it

 

[Sir Donald III]

Blackheart: That is the reason for my strict condition there. If a unit is neded for the defense of the city, it must be able to be created before the city falls under attack. There may not be enough time to build an expensive unit.

Now, granted, we can cash rush a unit once the build is taken off of Wonder. Actually... I've probably worded Section E in a way that would allow for such a Cash Rush:

Such a unit must cost no more than the number of shields already generated plus the number of shields that can be generated in 1 turn.

While my initial intent was via actual production w/o Rushing, a crafty PD could interpret this as meaning generated "in any way possible" (including Rushes). However, depending on Rushes adds another line to be signed. That of the Domestic Minister.

Short form of that is, if you think I should allow specifically (i.e. stated in the section as opposed to implied) for Waste, Natural Production, and Rushes, then I'll rewrite the Section as such. Of course, if I do, I would have to add the caveat that "rushes may only be considered with approval of the Domestic Minister."


Black Hole: Section B says that the Veto Poll MUST have a Majority of "Stop Build" votes for the build to be stopped. Otherwise, the build continues. There is no room for misinterpretation there.

Section C delegates a power to post the relevant Poll To the Culture Ministry (meaning the Minister or the Deputy). Others may initiate the discussion, (code leaves this blank,) but the Culture Ministry by this Code would have defacto jurisdiction (Governor would still post the queue, but only Culture would have the Power to switch off,) as long as the build is a wonder. Once it is not a Wonder, i.e. the Veto Poll "passes", full control returns to the Governor, as per Section B.

Furthermore, Section C gives the CM the power to determine a Standard of "Acceptable Waste" when the Wonder Build Starts, which cannot be changed. Now, this does not apply to a "military emergency" for obvious reasons.


Perhaps a review of the Code as drafted to date is in order:

a. A Wonder or Small Wonder build is Vetoable by the voting populace, ONLY IF the city building it loses no more than an "acceptable" number of shields or turns of production by switching to a different Unit, Improvement, or Wonder, and by a Majority of "Stop Building" Votes in a Veto Poll.

b. A "Veto Poll" will be set up for 48 Hours and have this format:
Should we continue to build $WONDER0 in $CITY1 ?
Continue Building
Stop Building
Abstain.
If a majority of the Citizens vote to "Stop Building", the city's build queue is returned to its respective Governor. Otherwise, the Wonder build still stands.

c. The Culture Ministry is responsible for setting the "Acceptable" Standard referenced in section (a) and posting the Veto Poll.
c(1). The Culture Ministry will specify the Standard for any new Wonder and Small Wonder Builds in the Instruction Thread for the Turnchat immediately following the start of the build.
c(2). If no Standard is specified by the Culture Ministry by the beginning of that said subsequent Turnchat, then the Standard is assumed to be 1 Turn's worth of the building city's Production after Corruption.

d. If an investigation of a foreign city reveals that that city would build a Great Wonder before the Japanatican City in contention for that Great Wonder, then the "Standard" in subsection (a) and the "Veto Poll" in subsection (b) will not apply, and the Culture Minister can decide to abort or continue, without a poll.
d(1). If a rival nation finishes a Great Wonder that a Japanatican city is constructing, then the build will be changed to any project that requires more shields than are currently in the shield box. If this is not possible, then any project may be completed, preferably with a minimum of waste. The Culture Minister and the Respective Governor are encouraged to list their contingency preferences in the TCIT.

e. An emergency Veto Poll may be requested, regardless of the amount of waste, if units from a nation at war with Japanatica are within 2 turns of attacking that city, and if the Culture Ministry also approves of the need. In such an instance, if the Veto Poll passes, only a military unit may be built in the wonder's place. Such a unit must cost no more than the number of shields already generated plus the number of shields that can be generated in 1 turn. The War Ministry may advise the respective Governor on what unit to build. The Governor would afterwards have no restrictions on the queue past this build.

 

[Cyc]

Works for me. I'll second it.

The Governor's protected, the Cultural Minister's protected, and the Military Advisor's taken care of.

How many different ways did we say Military Advisor in this thread?

 

[Furiey]

How many different ways did we say Military Advisor in this thread?

Please can we stick with the titles for the Ministers that are already in the Constitution. Adding more here will only build in opportunities for problems in the future.

 

[ravensfire]

Honestly - too complicated. I understand the reasoning, but disagree with it. We're over-thinking ourselves on this.

How about:
"Once a Wonder or Small Wonder project is approved, that project may not be cancelled except for an emergency. If the Minister of Culture determines that there is an emergency, they may post a veto poll, explaining the emergency. The construction of the Wonder or Small Wonder will be cancelled if a majority of citizens voting support the veto. All resources used thus far for the project must be used to alleviate the emergency."

Yes - there is a lot of vagueness - that's intentional. What's an emergency? Cultural pressure counts, as does military pressure and even another civ getting close to completing the project. We shouldn't define what an emergency is, but I'm pretty sure that we'll all know it when we see it.

I think this give us a great deal more flexibility, is much more readable (no offense - but READ the main proposal - way too much in there) and remains within the concept of our laws - define the what, not the how.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Sir Donald III]

Ravensfire, are you refering to only Section E, or the whole proposal?

If you mean the Whole Proposal, then it takes away the ability for a citizen to ask for a redirect for "any" reason. Not necessarily a bad thing to drop, but still please consider that.

Another thing is that if another Nation completes the Wonder, then, assuming the Chat is stopped for the Veto Poll, what if the veto Poll fails? What do we do then?

And how do you "alleviate" another Nation building the Wonder faster than us? Divert the construction tho a Cruise Missile or a Tactical Nuke to strike the City?

Also, since this is a Code, and not an Article, I think that it is required to define the format of the Veto Poll. That way, the issue of "interpretation" is taken off the table.

Perhaps this:

a. Once a Wonder or Small Wonder project is approved, that project may not be cancelled except in either an emergency or, in the case of a Great Wonder, if another Nation completes the Wonder or, in the opinion of the Culture Ministry, would complete the Wonder before the city would.

b. If such a situation arrises, the Culture Ministry may post a Veto Poll after a period of discussion.
b(1). A "Veto Poll" will be set up for 48 Hours and have this format:

Should we continue to build $WONDER0 in $CITY1 ?
Continue Building
Stop Building
Abstain.

The Culture Ministry will give the reason why the Veto Poll was proposed in the initial post. If a majority of the Citizens vote to "Stop Building", the city's build queue is returned to its respective Governor. Otherwise, the Wonder build still stands.
b(2). If the reason for a Successful Veto Poll is an imminent Military or Cultural attack on the city, then the Governor is obliged to change the build to something to address the emergency if at all possible.

c. If a rival nation finishes a Great Wonder that a Japanatican city is constructing, then the Veto Poll may be bypassed and the build will be changed to any project, preferably with a minimum of waste. The Culture Minister and the Respective Governor are encouraged to list their contingency preferences in the TCIT.

 

[ravensfire]

Ravensfire, are you refering to only Section E, or the whole proposal?

If you mean the Whole Proposal, then it takes away the ability for a citizen to ask for a redirect for "any" reason. Not necessarily a bad thing to drop, but still please consider that.

Another thing is that if another Nation completes the Wonder, then, assuming the Chat is stopped for the Veto Poll, what if the veto Poll fails? What do we do then?

And how do you "alleviate" another Nation building the Wonder faster than us? Divert the construction tho a Cruise Missile or a Tactical Nuke to strike the City?

Also, since this is a Code, and not an Article, I think that it is required to define the format of the Veto Poll. That way, the issue of "interpretation" is taken off the table.

Yup - the entire proposal.

To address your concerns:

1. Yeah - I did remove the ability for a citizen to ask for a redirect. We don't need continual polls/discussions on these matters. Discretion is given to the Minister of Culture to determine if an emergency exists. I deliberately left the description of emergency missing - it's their job to prove/demonstrate that there is a bonafide reason to change a wonder build. Citizens can request of the MoC to declare an emergency, but it's at the MoC's discretion.

2. If another Civ actually COMPLETES the wonder - There is no veto poll - it's vetoed! Common sense needs to apply to something like that. There is no veto poll - other options are considered, discussed and implemented as directed.

3. Alleviating another Civ building the wonder faster - If we discover that scenario, that's pretty clearly an emergency. The options at that point are many, and should not, and must not, be part of our ruleset. Let the people, and the leaders, determine the best approach. Improve our city, damage theirs, move builds around, change to something else, even a building or a unit - all of these will alleviate the situation. There is no requirement that the alleviation means we do, in fact, get the wonder. Sometimes we won't, but we still alleviate the problem of producing a wonder we won't get by building an improvment, or a unit for defense/offense. Likewise, shifting another cities production to a tac missile is a means of alleviating the problem. The proposal doesn't limit what we do, and doesn't care. It gives flexibility to the leaders, and the people, to find and present the best solution, whatever that might be, to the people.

There are some things that we need to be specific on - elections primarily come to mind - because they have such a dramatic impact on the DG process. This isn't an area where we need to be so specific. The proposal come, in part, from a desire to limit how often we can change wonder builds, moving them from city to city at the latest whim that strikes. Both proposals do that, I feel that a simpler, clearer approach is better.

I guess the difference is trust. I trust that the leaders, and the people, will act in a manner respectful of the WotP, in an open discussion, and come to a viable decision, without restrictions on how or what they can discuss. The only thing leaders cannot do is cancel/change a Wonder build without a poll. The other proposal does limit the leaders, and directs explicitly a great deal of their behavior.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Ashburnham]

Well, dang. Ravansfire's pretty damn persuasive. However, SD3 does have a point. This is going to go to the Code of Laws, not the Constitution. Constitutions are supposed to be vague to be able to stay relevent over a large variety of issues. Laws are not, they are supposed to define how exactly a nation is supposed to act. I guess it all comes down to how we'd like to have our Code of Laws written. But, in closing, ravansfire brings up some pretty good points.