From King to Emperor - ouch

[Victoria]

He also has alot of science and is able to get to crossbows by the time I can get the horses out.

I had a couple of goes. The first time I really did not have a lot of trouble from him but did refuse his envoy. The second time I played as I normally would without building the slingers first and he attacked quite early but did that annoying thing of sitting within your borders while he started to bring up more troops. In this situation I have met no-one else so declaring war is not such an issue.
Below is the layout after the second battle, I did not even get to archers but without knowing exactly what you did... what I did that may be different is...
I built a builder first and got the quarry and 22 mines built by using gold. This with craftsmanship then allows cheaper faster troop building.
As soon as I saw him coming I changed to warrior and tyhis may be your main issue. Slingers are no good before archers and using warriors is always a safer start
I did not continue to the game to xbow but you are in a fairly good situation. Expanding north west and north makes sense and that does cause issues with him. Because it is Hungary I would probably take outy Alcazar and I normally do not attack CS.
Some key things with combat you may not be doing also is defending rather than attacking, within your own territory fortify heal is often stronger than attack with warriors. Using the river to your advantage, declaring rather than waiting (first attack advantage), these things all help.
If you wanted me to play to T50+ giving a blow by blow account I can. It is interesting the additional use of xbows after the patch is making things more fun but it is so situational it is hard to describe.
I went straight to craftsmanship and went Mining, Pottery and was 4 turns from writing when I changed for archery so it was not like I was acting like I knew what was coming, I just did my normal approach until circumstances changed.

 

[kb27787]

Apologies, he had two/three archers, hence the double shot. I have been dealing with driver crashes today so I was distracted when I wrote that.

He also has alot of science and is able to get to crossbows by the time I can get the horses out.

The problem is your tech... you went mining first when really you needed to go animal husbandry.

Still, it is exactly as I suspected... you probably focused too much on warriors/slingers and forgot about builders and monuments.
When you meet AI, never ever invite them to your nearest city on deity (on emperor I think its fine). Anyhow if they don't know your city's location they cannot attack. As far as I know Matthias never even came close to discovering my capital before I was able to forward settler him.


In the save though by the time I finish horseback riding, I have a few archers out and surely that should be enough to win against emperor AI?

You need to beeline the correct policy cards/tech. Actually this is a great start since you get 2 CS envoys for production to units and buildings. I opened monument because it is emperor, and you want military tradition. I also got religious settlements with God-king card! (emperor AI must really suck at faith to not grab that).

You need at least two instances of horses and so I've settled the otherwise crappy coastal location with my free settler just to settle on the horses.

Try playing from my save--I think you should be able to win. Military tradition card complete, Hetairoi and Magnus already in place. Builders ready for the chop once established. Trade route already on the way straight into his empire. A pool of horses ready to be used. Good culture generation so far.

 

[Tuvok694]

If king to emperor is "ouch" then what is emperor to immortal? After many months of playing I have improved on level emperor. Today I was feeling lucky and started one game on level immortal. As Russia, one of the strongest Civs. I meet Tamar in turn 4, I build scout, builder, slinger. In turn 14 Tamar attacks me with 5 warriors and 2 slingers. With some combat luck I manage to keep my capital for some more rounds, then from the other side barbarians approach witth 3 warriors and 2 slingers. Only reason I am still alive is that rule "one unit per tile". I quit the game because it is no fun at all.
What did I learn: For me personally, the difficulty scale ENDS at level emperor, it's the highest level I can play on with my obviously limited capabilities. I haven't got the slightest clue how those civ-youtubers win easily on level deity, although I watch a lot of their videos.

 

[Victoria]

What did I learn: For me personally, the difficulty scale ENDS at level emperor,

This patch has altered things a bit.
Barbs have become aggressive again, xbows are the flavour of the month for the AI and the AI seems to sometimes be a bit closer.
Before this patch they had introduced a change where the AI warriors could not be baited so easily by your own troops when next to your city. But they had made barbs easier and the enemy rarely attacked early.
This has made the game more challenging on all levels due to this combo but some of the skill on higher levels is about combat, diplomacy and early care with the enemy.
T14 attacks are rare and when they come they are challenging but I would not give up due to that.

A comment on your build order. Scout-builder-slinger is you building 2 weak troops early and I suspect you sent your scout off in a straight line. I will build a scout but circle my city with it to understand what is close, I prefer it to a slinger which is there primarily to get an archery eureka I find unnecessary. The moment I am aware of a near civ I will be building warriors because they are just so much stronger on the defence.

One of the pleasures of this game is the huge variety of build order and many higher players slinger primarily for early aggression offensively. Yes archers are great on defence but slingers are pants. The builder is about efficiency, more production early and getting the 50% troop build card which together means if you are attacked you can start churning out the defence fast. I am an opportunistic player so will start builder or scout- builder in the hope of nothing close and it has bitten me but is rare. They key is to be prepared to swap and be on guard, that scout does not go off until I am happy as it will be able to mislead at least 1 enemy warrior which leaves 4 against my 2 which defensively is fine.

 

[MrRadar]

I meet Tamar in turn 4, I build scout, builder, slinger.

That's your main problem right there. You meet an aggressive neighbour very early and continue to build junk, sorry for the word. React immediately, switch to warriors at the first sight of trouble. In fact, on higher difficulties warrior first is highly recommended in most cases - it will help to control barbs if you find no close neighbours. Only when you know your close surroundings and can confirm you're safe, you can allow such luxuries as early settlers, builders and scouts
When FXS fixed barb camps I made only one change in my initial play - I now usually start with a warrior. Works very well.
If you find close neighbours, push out a few warriors first, and only then slingers, or include an odd slinger in between warriors: warrior, warrior, slinger, warrior, warrior, slinger, slinger. Or so. Replace lost warriors, it is always safer to have more troops who can take a hit. You'll get that archery eureka, if it comes to a fight, don't worry.

The moment I am aware of a near civ I will be building warriors because they are just so much stronger on the defence.

Hear, hear!

 

[kb27787]

If king to emperor is "ouch" then what is emperor to immortal? After many months of playing I have improved on level emperor. Today I was feeling lucky and started one game on level immortal. As Russia, one of the strongest Civs. I meet Tamar in turn 4, I build scout, builder, slinger. In turn 14 Tamar attacks me with 5 warriors and 2 slingers. With some combat luck I manage to keep my capital for some more rounds, then from the other side barbarians approach witth 3 warriors and 2 slingers. Only reason I am still alive is that rule "one unit per tile". I quit the game because it is no fun at all.
What did I learn: For me personally, the difficulty scale ENDS at level emperor, it's the highest level I can play on with my obviously limited capabilities. I haven't got the slightest clue how those civ-youtubers win easily on level deity, although I watch a lot of their videos.

Post the save? I do agree that many youtubers only show videos with "cooked" starts (such that their scout always finds something useful). I even remember Potatomcwhiskey opening with 3 scouts.

Personally, I am not a big fan of scout first. For these reasons:

1) On deity, you will not get many CS first-meets and huts; AIs start with extra units and they will meet even CSs very close to your starting spot first. By the time your scout is out most likely the majority of stuff you could have taken was already claimed (either by the AI, or by your starting warrior).

2) If you don't meet civs, they can't march to your lands and kill you. Very important as even far-off AIs have been known march from 20+ tiles away just to fight you. So why bother to meet other civs early? You can't afford the 25 gold too many times, and it is quite unlikely you will reach 24 points for golden age anyway. Save those era points for later!

3) If you need a decoy, a slinger is only 20 gold more expensive AND can be upgraded to a powerful unit later. It by all means is superior to the scout.

4) If you want to be risky, but to be rewarded if your gamble works, open monument first. A scout is a risky choice with UNCERTAIN payoff. A monument at least has a guaranteed payoff of culture and border expansion.

You NEED to beeline animal husbandry/archery. It's always been this way since vanilla.

 

[Loderingo]

If king to emperor is "ouch" then what is emperor to immortal? After many months of playing I have improved on level emperor. Today I was feeling lucky and started one game on level immortal. As Russia, one of the strongest Civs. I meet Tamar in turn 4, I build scout, builder, slinger. In turn 14 Tamar attacks me with 5 warriors and 2 slingers. With some combat luck I manage to keep my capital for some more rounds, then from the other side barbarians approach witth 3 warriors and 2 slingers. Only reason I am still alive is that rule "one unit per tile". I quit the game because it is no fun at all.
What did I learn: For me personally, the difficulty scale ENDS at level emperor, it's the highest level I can play on with my obviously limited capabilities. I haven't got the slightest clue how those civ-youtubers win easily on level deity, although I watch a lot of their videos.

Don't give up!

So many players give up on higher levels because they get demoralised at being behind the AI. You don't need to catch up until at least the end of Mediaevel.

If nothing else, it is worth playing the game out as a learning experience.

The wiki is a good source of tips for specific civs:

https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Russian_(Civ6)

 

[Victoria]

3) If you need a decoy, a slinger is only 20 gold more expensive AND can be upgraded to a powerful unit later. It by all means is superior to the scout.

And so the argument goes on.
The scout is faster and more adjustable than a slinger but more importantly has a ZOC. It has a different promotion tree and when played right a lvl 3 skirmishers is a frightening thing. The +1 MP for scouting around your base makes it faster to see more and have you ever had a slinger running away and running out of MP to get on that hill? The scout does not have that issue.
Each civ you meet = +1 era, last thing I want on deity is to be in the dark. Discovering natural wonders also.

Both have their values but you invalidate your argument by saying “by all means superior” it’s just rubbish and shows poor judgement.

 

[kb27787]

The problem is your tech... you went mining first when really you needed to go animal husbandry.

Still, it is exactly as I suspected... you probably focused too much on warriors/slingers and forgot about builders and monuments.
When you meet AI, never ever invite them to your nearest city on deity (on emperor I think its fine). Anyhow if they don't know your city's location they cannot attack. As far as I know Matthias never even came close to discovering my capital before I was able to forward settler him.


In the save though by the time I finish horseback riding, I have a few archers out and surely that should be enough to win against emperor AI?

You need to beeline the correct policy cards/tech. Actually this is a great start since you get 2 CS envoys for production to units and buildings. I opened monument because it is emperor, and you want military tradition. I also got religious settlements with God-king card! (emperor AI must really suck at faith to not grab that).

You need at least two instances of horses and so I've settled the otherwise crappy coastal location with my free settler just to settle on the horses.

Try playing from my save--I think you should be able to win. Military tradition card complete, Hetairoi and Magnus already in place. Builders ready for the chop once established. Trade route already on the way straight into his empire. A pool of horses ready to be used. Good culture generation so far.

Been a while since I've played Alex domination so I'm sure someone with better scouting could've won much earlier... longest part was the pathing to Khmer which had tons of rough terrain to cross.

Don't bother with archer/warrior rush. Just chop out Hetairoi and don't look back (don't build barracks, just slot strategos and fling your horses at the AI). If you have spare gold, buy a catapult or two, but once you have +7 CS against districts promotion, hetairoi adjacent to GG can hit through walls easily (36+10+7 = ~53 CS in total)

 

[i_imperator]

@Victoria @kb27787 Thanks very much for the advice, I played the save again this morning and I followed the tips you provided and I successfully captured Hungary's capital after he attacked me. I used the river defense in my second city to wear down Matthias's army and the City State. I then finished my Tech and was able to pump out Hetairoi and took two of his cities (one being his cap). He has two cities left. Matthias's got Hypathia who is in that city with the encampment.

Thanks for the help

 

[Victoria]

Thanks for the help

So just to understand, it was how to defend that was the issue?
Also has it upped your game and you feel more confident?
I ask because it is nice to understand what advice helps and we often forget some of the basics like defence tactics.

 

[i_imperator]

So just to understand, it was how to defend that was the issue?
Also has it upped your game and you feel more confident?
I ask because it is nice to understand what advice helps and we often forget some of the basics like defence tactics.

Yes definitely, I tend to panic and rush my moves when the AI rushes like that. On my second attempt, It was much easier to defend against him.

I consider my early game to be the weakest. I have trouble making the right decisions, Which openers to go for, which districts to build, when to stop making units. I guess that comes with experience though. The barbs can be a nuisance at times too.

 

[kb27787]

And so the argument goes on.
The scout is faster and more adjustable than a slinger but more importantly has a ZOC. It has a different promotion tree and when played right a lvl 3 skirmishers is a frightening thing. The +1 MP for scouting around your base makes it faster to see more and have you ever had a slinger running away and running out of MP to get on that hill? The scout does not have that issue.
Each civ you meet = +1 era, last thing I want on deity is to be in the dark. Discovering natural wonders also.

Both have their values but you invalidate your argument by saying “by all means superior” it’s just rubbish and shows poor judgement.

As a unit each has their characteristics. But as opening build options I find the slinger to be better in the vast, vast majority of cases (yes, by all means is hyperbole on my part)

What's wrong with a dark age? Unless your plan is to conquer extensively that early (in which case wouldn't you want that extra archer?) A heroic medieval is much better than a classical golden age. I am always glad when I get classical dark age, but that's not always possible due to huts and camps and AIs meeting me with their scouts even when I have no scouts of my own.

Lvl3 skirmishers... It is one less range than a crossbow and is 60 range CS. It still loses to a lvl2 (+12 against land) crouching tiger at 62 CS with the same range and I don't recall anyone saying those were OP... Most ppl would take doubleshot crossbows over either due to extra range.

I'll admit if you get rangers (invisible) then those are strong but in domination runs you must be doing something wrong if the game is not yet over.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Interesting write-up with loads of great tips for emperor players like myself, however I've been struggling with war. I tried to do your strategy with Alexander on Pangaea, and I have Hungary next to me who always seems to rush and captures one of my cities. I'm not sure what i've done wrong, I built 3 archers ASAP before expanding and he was able to two shot them straight away as I was teching HBR. Ill attach two saves the 4000BC one and the Turn where he captured my city.

Warriors are more important because you can up the garrison strength. if he surrounds your city, you die anyways because the AI just brute forces it. I know the great debate of warrior vs slinger, but the correct answer is wall.

Stone starts are best starts. Also the AI is nasty with those rushes now.

 

[LMT]

Thanks to all of the posters here. I've learned a lot!

I have about 950 hours on Civ 6--much, much less than the experienced players here. But to the OP, I seem to find the jump from Emperor to Immortal to be more significant than the jump from King to Emperor. Not sure why and I don't think most do.

I can usually win on Emperor, win a little more than 50% of the time on Immortal, and much less than that on Deity. My biggest issue is that I'm addicted to religion. I hate not getting one and there's just too big of an opportunity cost in getting one on Deity (if I do even get one). Much easier to do with less cost on Immortal.

Lately, my capital opener has been roughly scout>scout/settler>holy site>settler>slinger. Of course, this changes depending on how close my neighbors are. I've been taking Religious Settlements pantheon almost exclusively since it came with a settler. I know there are probably others that provide more long-term benefits (like Goddess of the Harvest), but I just can't resist the free settler!

Anyway, the main thing I've learned since Civ 6 came out is expand...early and often. It took me awhile to get the hang of playing wide since playing tall was a great strategy in Civ 5. I'm still not great, but I found a level where I have fun and try out new strategies with different leader.

 

[Horizons]

Well ... I think Emperor is now impossible for me to beat post-patch without a very favourable starting location. Barbarian spam, or else an AI that totally overwhelms you on all sides. And since it gets a free settler, it is going to be spamming you with crossbowmen in 700BC before you've had a chance to build anything better than warriors and archers.

So. Much. Pain. And. Frustration. I think I'm done

 

[aguliondew]

Well ... I think Emperor is now impossible for me to beat post-patch without a very favourable starting location. Barbarian spam, or else an AI that totally overwhelms you on all sides. And since it gets a free settler, it is going to be spamming you with crossbowmen in 700BC before you've had a chance to build anything better than warriors and archers.

So. Much. Pain. And. Frustration. I think I'm done

Well you first warrior is suppose to deal with any early barbarian camp you see. If a scout get back to a camp then you have barbarian issue. That has happen to me when I did not pull back my warrior after I seen the second scout. Yea just focus on dealing with scout/barbarian camps before they start spawn 3 warrior, 3 horseman, esc. The AI is aggressive if your capital is to close or you have to few military units. You can save gold to levy a city state units or build more units, if you notice a that you and a nearby civ will have to compete for territory.

 

[Victoria]

You have a few turns to get some on army units out but then you should get some army units. How to use these units has been helpful to someone else. When defending use the terrain and fortify heal. Unless the enemy is dry close the your city they will attack your units and this wears them out while you heal.

 

[Deadly Dog]

If king to emperor is "ouch" then what is emperor to immortal? After many months of playing I have improved on level emperor. Today I was feeling lucky and started one game on level immortal. As Russia, one of the strongest Civs. I meet Tamar in turn 4, I build scout, builder, slinger. In turn 14 Tamar attacks me with 5 warriors and 2 slingers. With some combat luck I manage to keep my capital for some more rounds, then from the other side barbarians approach witth 3 warriors and 2 slingers. Only reason I am still alive is that rule "one unit per tile". I quit the game because it is no fun at all.
What did I learn: For me personally, the difficulty scale ENDS at level emperor, it's the highest level I can play on with my obviously limited capabilities. I haven't got the slightest clue how those civ-youtubers win easily on level deity, although I watch a lot of their videos.

Much the same, I've mostly been a career emperor player since Civ5. Late in R+F I bumped myself up to immortal, even won a single deity game, content that I could follow civfanatics' advice to compete in the early game, switch to a more roleplay style mid game and still be challenged to catch the AI. Worked great with a lot of the GS civs, in that immortal proved challenging yet beatable and beatable by playing into a civ's uniques rather than ignoring them or working around them.

Now I find many early games a struggle on immortal just from early barbs or aggressive AI. Depends a lot on the map though, and of course the civ I'm playing, so I find I'm finally adopting the "warrior first" advice and delaying scout production, which used to be the first build in 95% of my games.

There's always exceptions, but now my games are becoming somewhat standardized until I get a second city and a pantheon. I don't mind since the cause of this seems to be a much better AI militarily; the payoff is not getting bored later in the game when my "snowball" of a civ is big enough to roll along on its own.

 

[tetley]

I'm a civ6 noob still on King right now, but I want to develop good habits that will work up higher. Currently I'm on my third civ6 game, and spanking king pretty solidly (courtesy of two megacolossal eruptions, most likely).

Why are early scouts so bad? You get that double recon xp bonus policy card, and when they get an early level 4, they get +20 strength which is quite substantial. My twin scouts are the stars of the show up until they get Ranger. No?