Future era Ideas

[mortalmadman]

Right now if your current civ wanes, you lose. By that definition victory is very slimly defined. Here is a synopsis of how I think civs should develop.

1) Assume that civs that have a steady rise to power will eventual fall. Civ 4 would measure your relative rise in power and plot about when and how you fall. FAlling would involve the seperation of states, probably to where they were before you conquered them. As states split off, you could choose to take control of the ancestor of your success rather than stay with the failing government. This also determines when GA are and gives you bonuses accordingly.
2) If the rise to power is veyr very rapi,d its assumed to be the result of a few men or a few heirs, thus the fractioning is pretty immediate. Now though, you've planted the seed of your culture and made a name in history.
3) If you were destroyed, assume you will eventually re-emerge.

Thus part of accumulating a high score was being the seed of many civs that form from the fall of your empire.

Awsome and well exsplained idea. Like it. Plus start another fourm to talk about peace endings. Plus we aren't showing our human nature when we play civ. But when it's online, humanity is on a whole other level. Some feel afrade to make another mad by breaking alliences and some feel mad when someone dose that to them. Online always bring ENTIRE new exstordany edges to a old game.

 

[sir_schwick]

I can just see that now....

Come hither my children and heed my words.... I'm packing!

Christ, it's Christ! RUN!


A judgement Day option would be hilarious.

Better yet, how about a "find out everything you think is real isn't" ending?

Computer: Wake up Ceaser.
Ceaser: Wha?
Computer: The matrix has you Ceaser....
Follow the white spearman.
-blip-
Ceaser:

That would finally explain this:

Once again, very nice Yuri.

For a diplomatic(unite behind me) victory, you discover your alter-ego has been running the other civs you have been warring with(Fight Club ending, you'll have to do the writing).

 

[BasketCase]

I totaly agree. I hate all the movies that just put down some werid nonscince not even close laws without thing. In terminator he said that he couldn't bring back electronics like way advanced guns. What about THE terminator.

Okay, I gotta call you on this. You do NOT mess with the Terminator movies and get away with it!

Here's how THE Terminator was able to go through the time machine in the first movie: as Kyle Reese tells the police while he's being questioned, there's "something about the field generated by a living organism".

The Terminator is a cyborg within a shell of living human tissue. This tissue generates the "field" Kyle was talking about. The field encases the cyborg in a bubble, and allows it to go back in time and shoot people and just generally mess stuff up.

 

[BasketCase]

If you went back in time and killed your Grandfather, you would cease to exist in a future where you could have traveled back in time therefor you could have never traveled back in time in the first place. Time can neither be stopped nor reversed.

Here's a crazy question that should make somebody's brain explode.....

How is there a paradox here? Once you do go back in time and kill your grandfather, how does the universe "know" you're supposed to go poof??? You're already STANDING there, in the living room, gun smoking in your hand, you granddaddy's corpse bleeding on the floor. Thermodynamic law says that the matter and energy of which you are made can't simply be deleted.

We perceive time as linear, moving forwards at a constant rate. Doesn't mean time actually works that way. Imagine hopping in your car in Los Angeles and driving up the California coast. You'll pass through San Luis Obispo, then San Francisco, before you reach the state's northern border. But if you turn around and drive south again, you'll pass through San Francisco BEFORE you reach San Luis Obispo! The sequence of events appears different to you, simply depending on which direction you're going. But the truth is that San Luis Obispo and San Francisco were really constants, that existed throughout your drive, staying in the same place while you moved.

Okay, I'm done. I'm listening for popping sounds now.............

 

[Alafin]

Well, I prefer the idea of generic religions in CivIV. I also find the idea of an amalgmed "Unity" religion unrealistic. Why are there various buildings that must be constructed for it to work? I wouldn't be opposed to a "Religious Victory," so long as it was the dominance of your state religion, not everyone's (who'd be declared the winner?)

As for the "Divine Messanger" argument, you seem to have misinterpreted it. The Divine Messanger who converts everyone to one religion is supporting the existing religion, not a new one or a unification of existing ones.

You seem to have misunderstood my argument. I am not suggesting that a "Unity" religion would be an amalgamation of bits and pieces from other religions; I'm saying that it would have to be a full-blown divine revelation on the order of those that began Christianity, Islam & Buddhism (IMHO). All historical religions speak of the return of their Prophet at a future point in time. Christianity speaks of the return of Christ; ironically, so does Islam; Buddhism prophecies the coming of the Great Buddha; while Zoroastrianism, for all intents and purposes a dead religion, talks of the coming of the Shah Bahram in the time of the Arab (ie,Islam). What I am suggesting is that all these religions are talking about the same Person, even if it doesn't appear that they are.

As for the buildings, I was just brainstorming an idea for something to replace the space ship as a goal to construct. It could really be any number of things. It could even be a joint project of all civs, working cooperatively toward its creation. Then "victory" points would be awarded in proportion to the contribution your civ made to the collective project; and the winner would be the civ with the highest civ point total.

Alafin Bahahotep

 

[sir_schwick]

So does that mean when that 'divine messenger' comes back, he/she/it will 'rehabilitate' the unbeliever?

 

[Yuri2356]

Once again, very nice Yuri.

For a diplomatic(unite behind me) victory, you discover your alter-ego has been running the other civs you have been warring with(Fight Club ending, you'll have to do the writing).

Well schwick, I'm affraid I've never seen fight club so I can't type that one up. But I do have ither joke endings:
The "Legitimate buissniman" Victory
Mao: Ghandi, I understand. You built the UN and had MPPs to protect you, you didn't need a friend like me. But now you come here, on the day of my daughters wedding, and ask me to do war with this "Montezuma."
Ghandi: I ask only for justice.
Mao: Thas isn't justice, you Infantry's still alive. You come here and say 'Don Mao, give me justice,' but you lack the respect of a friend. You don't even call me Godfather anymore.
Ghandi: Please, Godfather, grant me this request.
Mao: I shall see what I can do.
Ghandi: Bless you godfather.

*the next morning*

Montezuma: *yawn* what a night.
*looks down to see the turret of an MA laying on the oil-smothered bed*
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

[Elgalad]

ROTFLMAO!



-E

 

[Alafin]

So does that mean when that 'divine messenger' comes back, he/she/it will 'rehabilitate' the unbeliever?

Probably not in the sense that YOU mean it. (ie: rehabilitate being code for brainwash).

More like in the sense of "breathe new life into". (divine CPR?)

Alafin Bahahotep

PS: I have seen Fight Club and I thought it was a great movie!
"The First rule of Fight Club is: There is no Fight Club.
The Second rule of Fight Club is: There is no Fight Club!"

 

[sir_schwick]

Actually i meant 'rehabilitate' in the way it is in my signature: Beaten the asses of.

 

[mortalmadman]

Here's a crazy question that should make somebody's brain explode.....

How is there a paradox here? Once you do go back in time and kill your grandfather, how does the universe "know" you're supposed to go poof??? You're already STANDING there, in the living room, gun smoking in your hand, you granddaddy's corpse bleeding on the floor. Thermodynamic law says that the matter and energy of which you are made can't simply be deleted.

We perceive time as linear, moving forwards at a constant rate. Doesn't mean time actually works that way. Imagine hopping in your car in Los Angeles and driving up the California coast. You'll pass through San Luis Obispo, then San Francisco, before you reach the state's northern border. But if you turn around and drive south again, you'll pass through San Francisco BEFORE you reach San Luis Obispo! The sequence of events appears different to you, simply depending on which direction you're going. But the truth is that San Luis Obispo and San Francisco were really constants, that existed throughout your drive, staying in the same place while you moved.

Okay, I'm done. I'm listening for popping sounds now.............

1st let me talk 1 more thing about the terminator. Nice argument, but I still say the other way but now I understand you're argument.

But on the time machine thing. When you said matter can't jus be delted that is true unless of course through... I forgot But I wasen't sure in the first place so don't argue with that. but anyways. When you said matter can't just be delted that is true. But matter just dosen't "appear" on you when you grow. You eat food and produce more to the body, bigger bones, whatever. I don't know Biology. But I do know it dosen't come from nowhere. So if you killed your grandpa, then that food and that sperm and all the other essiantals wouldn't of gone to you being born. So it would be in the super market for another kid. But ignore that and lets think logicly

Lets say you do kill your grandpa and you're still there. Then that means you came from nowhere and just crossed alternate universes. But the thing is when you go back in time, you don't go to an alternate univerous. You go to the same 1. But you changed it so you wouldn't exsist and that means the univours where you exsist, dosen't exsist. I think that should help explain it. That was alot

important If this gets deleted then I'll start 1 for this, and 1 for future talk. I'll end this argument with a finnal word when new info and counter args. is over.

 

[Yuri2356]

Speaking of time travell, why not have it so that after building a time machine, Every Civ on earth goea back in time and give all of their technology to their ancestors. At the end of each 6000 year period, they repeat the process untill they finally trancend Human form. It could be know as: "The Time Loop Victory"

Science advisor: Sire our scientists argee, we have attained unto a new-
You: Age?
Science advisor: Why yes, how did you know.
You: I have the strangest feeling I've done this before....
Science Advisor: Ya, talk about Deja-vu.
*TIMPORTALEFFECTAMAJIG*
You: What the?
Future you: Hia!
You: What the, who are you?
Future you: I'm you from the future!
Both at once: But how the F*** could you-
You: How'd you do that?
Future you: I'm you from the future, so I remeber exactly how this happened. I know exactly how you'll react.
You: Ok, this is some freeky stuff man.
Future you: I know, that's what I said when I was you in the past, which is your present, which is right now.
You: Wait a second, but if I'm you, and you're me, then what about.....
Future you: OH CRAP!!!!

 

[sir_schwick]

1st let me talk 1 more thing about the terminator. Nice argument, but I still say the other way but now I understand you're argument.

But on the time machine thing. When you said matter can't jus be delted that is true unless of course through... I forgot But I wasen't sure in the first place so don't argue with that. but anyways. When you said matter can't just be delted that is true. But matter just dosen't "appear" on you when you grow. You eat food and produce more to the body, bigger bones, whatever. I don't know Biology. But I do know it dosen't come from nowhere. So if you killed your grandpa, then that food and that sperm and all the other essiantals wouldn't of gone to you being born. So it would be in the super market for another kid. But ignore that and lets think logicly

Lets say you do kill your grandpa and you're still there. Then that means you came from nowhere and just crossed alternate universes. But the thing is when you go back in time, you don't go to an alternate univerous. You go to the same 1. But you changed it so you wouldn't exsist and that means the univours where you exsist, dosen't exsist. I think that should help explain it. That was alot

important If this gets deleted then I'll start 1 for this, and 1 for future talk. I'll end this argument with a finnal word when new info and counter args. is over.

All that means is that if you go back into the future, the you that would have been born will not exist. The you that jumped will, because you do exist. This also means the future will look different, one because someone else or no one will be piloting that time machine. The point is that once you jump you can never come back to where you started. So if a leader wanted to change the present through the past, they would have to come along as well, sinc ehtey would never feel the effect.

 

[Elgalad]

One can only travel to an alternate past, never to their own. It's obvious that you cannot affect the past of the reality you inhabit, else, your reality as you know it would not exist in the first place. But any actions in an alternate universe, past, present, or future do not pose any conflicts to your original reality and therefore are perfectly possible. If there are infinite universes existing all parallel to each other, then the moment a 'time travel' machine moved someone forward or backwards through time, it would also do so sideways into a reality which the traveller has already affected.

 

[Yuri2356]

Either that or it's simply a thing of infinate causality. That any incidence of time travell that has ever happened is already a part of the timeline, making things like the gradfather paradox impossible. The fact that you exist would meen that your grandfather would survive any attempt on his life made by a time traveler, this creates a lot of confusion when it comes to cause/effect and continuity. Your grandfather may even have told you a story about how a man in strange clothing tried to kill him once, but he managed shoot the man and save himself. Later on in life, you happen to travel back in time, and remembering your grandfather's story, you decide to ensure that he survives. So you enter his house with a gun, he mistakes you for a robber, and then BLAM. It turns out that your grandfather actually killed you.

 

[mortalmadman]

Nice points but I guess it all goes back to the movie time machine "what if?". I don't belive that it just won't happin. But this is just turning into a loop. I've said my opionion and got most of my opionions down except time loops. What happins, dose the univerous go on or loop with U? Dose the univerous self destruct? I'm leaning on self destruct. I just think that the univerous can self destruct. But if you're theory is true then that means that tere is no paroell univerouses because there's (or atleast 1 noticable diffrent) 1 that could let that. But my last sentance on this (should be)

The univerous can self destruct. Do you have any proof it can't? An aurgument? Just because it's where everything in the univours is dosen't mean it's specail in a scientific term. Probably in a religous way but where not gonna explain this in a religous way. We are deluted to think were specail when it's just mind tricks. Maybe u have 2 accept the thought that maybe were just a bunch of matter put together to make a livin thing. The univous may not be a "matrix" of perfection. if we lived in the matrix witch I think is scientificly sound, but not belivable persay. The univerous exsist, and that may be a variable.

 

[Yuri2356]

The Flawless Causality Idea doesn't deny the existance of paralell Universes, It just says that Time Travell can't alter the Future. Alternate Realities would still exist to represent every possible universe.

 

[NP300]

Alafin,

Are you Bahai? Because what you say sounds like it.

Anyway, you are mistaken about new religions being "upgrades" of previous religions. Christianity in fact, though it may offend Christians, is a denial of Judaism. Thus, Jehovah orders his followers to slaughter his enemies. On the other hand Jesus preaches turning the other cheek. One can see time and time again, in both the gospels and the Talmud, how Jesus and the Pharisees were at each other's throats, the one contradicting the other. It is quite clear that the New Testament and the Old Testament contradict each other on fundamental issues.

Also, it is true that Islam recognizes Jesus as a prophet and also recognizes Moses. But to say that Islam is un upgrade of Christianity or Judaism is likewise mistaken.

A lot of the same also applies regarding Buddhism versus Hinduism.

Also it all goes back to the point raised by mewtarthio. Even if such a religion were created what about those who refused to join such a one-world-religion? I know that personally I would refuse to join such a religion because I oppose such one-world notions.

In fact such notions strike me as boring. How boring would the world be if there were only one religion? Wouldn't a one world government or one world religion be the ultimate dictatorship? It would have absolute power and would surely abuse it. Where would dissidents escape to? It even seems to me that a one-world religion/government would stop human evolution and even undo it by ending the evolutionary struggle between humans.

So, what about those who would refuse to join such a religion? And what about atheists, agnostics and the like? Personally I believe a lot of these "revelations" you refer to were just inventions by man. Then you're just right back where you started. Christianity and Islam both claimed to be the ultimate religion. Why not just let the people of different religions have their own beliefs an dnot try to force them to come to an agreement?

My question to you is, would you want a game where Buddhism could become the dominant world religion? I assume you want one where the whole world embraces Christianity, or maybe Islam. Interestingly, both of these religions are at their core religions of brotherly love and international peace, yet even the most cursory review of history will bring to the surface innumerable instances where the religious beliefs of their adherents have been used to justify the most abominable treatment of the believer's fellow human beings (think: slavery in the Southern US justified by slavery in the bible & racism in general around the idea that the black or brown skin of black or brown skinned people was the result of the mark of Cain. Think also of the mentality of the Islamic purist suicide-bombers/terrorists pursuing their campaign of a world run according to Muslim law (aka. shari'a) and the maltreatment that would befall the people of the West should such a plan succeed.)

 

[NP300]

All historical religions speak of the return of their Prophet at a future point in time. Christianity speaks of the return of Christ; ironically, so does Islam; Buddhism prophecies the coming of the Great Buddha; while Zoroastrianism, for all intents and purposes a dead religion, talks of the coming of the Shah Bahram in the time of the Arab (ie,Islam). What I am suggesting is that all these religions are talking about the same Person, even if it doesn't appear that they are.


Alafin Bahahotep

Well, of course they do. It gives their followers something to look forward to.

It is quite clear that all these future comings are not what you believe them to be, since they all contradict each other on fundamental issues. If they were all really messengers of the same God, we must wonder what kind of schizophrenic God we have. What kind of God would send one messenger and have him tell humanity "Do X; And doing X is my command for all time", and 1,000 years later tell humanity "Don't do X because X is evil, and this is my command for all time". "Kill because I command you too...Oh no wait a minute, now I don't want you to kill anymore. I changed my mind". No, if they had ALL really been sent by the same God, they wouldn't contradict each other so much.

 

[sir_schwick]

I hate how civilization ends with the modern era and some lame 'future techs'. There should be a future era.

Yeah right, future era. Either mod it in or buy SMAC. Next you will be suggesting the end of the future era is a time machine which allows you to kill your grandfather.

NOOOBody expects me to go back in time and kill my grandfather. My two methods are wackiness, a lack of casaulity, and future techs. Now wait! My three methods are wackiness, a lack of casaulity, future techs, and easter eggs. Among my methods are.......let me start again.

......
Next you will be suggesting the end of the future era is a time machine which allows you to kill your grandfather.

NOOOBody expects me to go back in time and kill my grandfather. My methods include...oh blast.

Seriously, how did we get into this long-winded discussion of the Grandfather Paradox? I thought we were discussing the merits of a future era for civilzation.

Quick, ban him!

I forgot to get an admin to come along.