Future World Compatibility

[zwei833]

Hello friends! I'm really glad and proud to see you import some element of RER into CBO.

Now in this sub-mod, 2-hander's strength is 28, while Tercio is 25, and 2hander also has many combat bonus promotion. Perhaps this is for balance consideration(which I'm not good at)? However I think 2hander may be a bit overpower.

I also want to explain some design concept of RER here:

In RER, 2hander is considered as an "early renaissance" unit, Tercio and Musketman should be the main military power in Renaissance era -- just like in real history. Players are not encouraged to build an army which is mainly consist of 2handers. Though with slightly lower strength point, Musketman in RER has many advantage compare to 2hander: cheaper, 1-tile range attack, and doesn't require iron. And in RER the Tercio which appears in late renaissance era(unlike in CBO, in which Tercio appear in early renaissance era) also has great advantage compare to 2hander. Also, the iron requirement of 2hander is not only for historical accurate consideration but also an intended factor to discourage players to build a big 2hander army.

Generally speaking, the RER design is: in medieval era, pikeman and X-bowman are weaker than Longswordsman, while in renaissance era, Tercio(as an upgrade of pikeman) and Musketman(as an upgrade of X-bowman) are more powerful than 2-handed swordsman.

All these factors force RER players to face a military transformation in renaissance era. And if the player have a powerful army mainly consist of Longswordsman in medieval era, his transformation may be more painful. Just like in real history, the renaissance warfare is a great breaktrough and transformation, the "civilian" pikeman and musketman play a more important role than the "noble" knights and dismounted-knights in the renaissance warfare.

These are for reference only, of course. As I'm not good at game balance which is very important in the "Community Balance Overhaul", and the general design of the units in CBO is quite different to RER.




P.S.1: A little bug, now Longswordsman obsolete at Gunpowder but upgrade to 2hander. And the UUs which replace pikeman, Longswordsman, Tercio, Musketman also need to adjust their upgrade and obsolete.

P.S.2: Since there are two sub-mod in the thread: Future World Compatibility and EE Compatibility, modify the title of the current thread might make sense.

 

[thunderbird_14]

Snop

P.S.2: Since there are two sub-mod in the thread: Future World Compatibility and EE Compatibility, modify the title of the current thread might make sense.

Nice assessment

Regarding PS2, the author of the thread has been not active lately but it's still not a year so I don't know if it's quite rude to ask moderators about it.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

The Carrack is now stuck with the Cannot End Turn on Ocean Tile and isn't an upgrade to the Caravel.

The Tech Tree looks better now. We'll need to move a lot of the Tech Bonuses to Specialists and UI.

I think the Drydock, Cloth Mill and the Gunsmith are too expansive for the %modifier they provide. They should be at 500 like the Windmill.

 

[von_Wurttemburg]

Oh great! this project is still alive

Cheer for the new update!


P.S. Is this a new forum? I never seen it before.

 

[pandasnail]

I don't really know why, but somehow the Cossack is replacing the Cavalry again. It looks like all you did was organize my edits, but something seems to have gone wrong. Perhaps unit class replacing needs its own row for some reason? Idk.

Anyway, here are the Civpedia updates, basically the same as Gazebo (or Firaxis) already wrote them

UPDATE Language_en_US
SET Text = 'Only the Russians may build it. This Unit has a combat bonus when fighting enemies that have already taken damage, and is stronger than the Uhlan, which it replaces.'
WHERE Tag = 'TXT_KEY_UNIT_HELP_COSSACK';

UPDATE Language_en_US
SET Text = 'The Cossack is the Russian unique unit, replacing the Uhlan. They are stronger than the Uhlan, and can also move after attacking. They get a combat bonus when battling damaged units. This makes Cossacks exceptionally strong at counter attacking, let the enemy chew up the front line peasants, then tear the weakened foe apart with a Cossack charge!'
WHERE Tag = 'TXT_KEY_UNIT_RUSSIAN_COSSACK_STRATEGY';

The Carrack is now stuck with the Cannot End Turn on Ocean Tile and isn't an upgrade to the Caravel.

So this is how I like it personally, two distinct units overlapping instead of a one column upgrade. I've played with it a couple times, and even the AI seems to get it well enough. They do need to be balanced if they aren't currently tho, perhaps the Carrack could get more CS or movement? Or maybe you're right, and it doesn't work. But I have enjoyed it so far.


As to the Twohander, thanks for the input Zwei! As you say tho, it doesn't really fit CBO to have a resource unit be weaker than same era resource free units, even with the interesting historical information and perspective you provided. If Xony did want to, I guess the way would be to make longswordsmen and uniques better, so that in Med they dominate almost as much as Knights. I prefer some version of the current implementation tho tbh.

Also, like the Longswordsman, the Knight needs its obsolete tech changed on account of the Lancer move.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Also note that Ulhans start with Formation 1.

I think 2Handers having a +50% vs Tercio seems a bit too high.

I'd like to see some suggestions for the Cloth Mill. Should the Manor give 25% to GPP like the Garden.

 

[von_Wurttemburg]

Actually, after I played a few games I found it the current situation of Two-hander is the best, which get the balance between history and gameplay: Two-hander is stronger than Tercio, which make it a useful unit, while the iron requirement can restrict its overuse. The combat stength or bonus may need a bit adjustment though.

And could you please also import the flag icon and SV icon of Landsknechte from RER mod? Now the flag and SV icon of Two-hander and Landsknechte looks the same.

I'm also thinking of importing other units(especially cavalry units) from RER and EE, is that possible?

Thanks Xony and all modders!

 

[pandasnail]

Also note that Ulhans start with Formation 1.

I really thought I had looked for that too, guess not. I'll make a new line for the Cossack soon.

I think 2Handers having a +50% vs Tercio seems a bit too high.

Maybe, but remember that Tercios get such a benefit against Knights, that they're the most powerful thing going for awhile, and a counter is nice. And 2handers are an Iron unit and should be strong. Could be less CS with that bonus tho maybe. Does it stay on upgrade? I even intentionally looked last game, and now I forget.

Actually, after I played a few games I found it the current situation of Two-hander is the best, which get the balance between history and gameplay: Two-hander is stronger than Tercio, which make it a useful unit, while the iron requirement can restrict its overuse. The combat stength or bonus may need a bit adjustment though.

It definitely works for the human the way it is. I've just seen less Cannons in my opponents than I'm used to in my 2.5 games with this mod, other than from Sweden. But I've also seen few offensives and its not like 2.5 is 1000.

 

[von_Wurttemburg]

Just a reminder: the musketman upgrade is buggy, it upgrades to Gatling Gun rather than Light Infantry.

 

[pandasnail]

Just a reminder: the musketman upgrade is buggy, it upgrades to Gatling Gun rather than Light Infantry.

That's another one where I prefer the overlapping distinctiveness of the two units vs a real quick upgrade myself. Light Infantry has one range, but has higher CS.

 

[Xony]

Yay new update! So on the Cossack, I forgot to make a civpedia update, which if you follow the github for main mod is kinda ironic. Not at the modbuddy stuff right now, but I'll make one tomorrow.

I have a Minuteman change finished too if you're interested, except I haven't watched the AI use it in Autoplay yet; it seems those 'AI types' are more complicated for foot melee.

Yeah, probably you should and then if you do update FW come back to this thread.

Yes, I'm interested in the changes. How does one do Autoplays again?

I'll make the new thread with the next version.

So the only change I have to make with the ships is to lower the strength of galls slightly until we have a better idea I guess?

I like the normal upgrade too, I'm aware my proposition is goofy, I just worry for the AI. I might even be overthinking it. I just love Cannons is what it comes to. Even Frigates I believe can overlap before Line Infantry, don't have the tech tree in front of me, tho Frigates are worse when they aren't the first ocean going ranged, so not as important. Your idea of removing the Iron probably is better tho, if something does need to be done.

I'm not too sure about the AI, too. I'll try the no iron one for now, if it doesn't work out we can change it.

Thanks for the update, Xony. Anyway, study hard for your exams

No problem and thank you

Edit: Didn't see the next page for some reason. Gonna go read it now

 

[Xony]

Thank you zwei833 for the insights and allowing other modders like me to use parts of your mod. It's really awesome. Seems like there is a lot to consider with the place of the 2handers in regard to other units. Maybe letting it as it is with some CS/bonus adjustments is the way to go and looking into the ai flavors to see if we can direct the ai in the right way with choosing between iron units.

I'll try to find all the upgrade paths I forgot to change and see if i can import the Landsknecht icons from RER.

I'll lower the building costs that phantomaxl1207 suggested. I need some more input from other players regarding the Tech bonus shifts before I'm comfortable doing them.

 

[pandasnail]

Yes, I'm interested in the changes.

Okay, they are at the bottom of the post, top line gives Cossack Formation 1, everything after is Minuteman stuff. Gazebo gives them Accuracy 1, I replaced with Drill I. (I don't really get it, but the part where my edits say Barrage is right, even tho they have Accuracy) Like I said before, I haven't actually watched the AI play a game with the change. I've gone into autoplay enough to make sure AI understands melee unit is a melee unit, but not that they build perfect formations and stuff. I've copied the AI Types from Gazebo's Guerilla, a unit I believe he invented. So it should be right.

How does one do Autoplays again?

Through the same SDK stuff as ModBuddy, click Firetuner. Well, you open a file as normal. Then open the firetuner, and you can see all sorts of info about the game. One of the tabs lets you autoplay thru a set of number of turns to watch the AI.

I'll make the new thread with the next version.

So the only change I have to make with the ships is to lower the strength of galls slightly until we have a better idea I guess?

Yeah, exactly. Galleass is now 20 RCS, Frigate 30, so lower Galleon somewhat from current 28.

In today's new version, Gazebo significantly increased the Walls line of buildings. Bastion is now much worse than the Castle. Thing is, cities would become really really strong with Bastions now, esp if you improve them to fit in. Might be worth trying to have to do some other stuff as well instead, tho coming up with ideas for buildings isn't my strong point.

As for Specialists and all that, phantom's suggestions are probably fine. Idk. The data for the regular CBO is currently all correct on the Wiki, if you wanna look at it.

INSERT INTO Unit_FreePromotions (UnitType, PromotionType) SELECT 'UNIT_RUSSIAN_COSSACK' , 'PROMOTION_FORMATION_1';


UPDATE Units SET CombatClass = 'UNITCOMBAT_GUN' WHERE Type = 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN';

UPDATE Units SET Range = '0' WHERE Type = 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN';

UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = '0' WHERE Type = 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN';

UPDATE Units SET Class = 'UNITCLASS_EE_LINE_INFANTRY' WHERE Type = 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN';

UPDATE Civilization_UnitClassOverrides Set UnitClassType = 'UNITCLASS_EE_LINE_INFANTRY' WHERE UnitType = 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN';

UPDATE Units SET PrereqTech = 'TECH_EE_FLINTLOCK' WHERE Type = 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN';

UPDATE Units SET Combat = '30' WHERE Type = 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN';

DELETE FROM Unit_AITypes WHERE UnitType = 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN';

UPDATE Units SET DefaultUnitAI = 'UNITAI_DEFENSE' WHERE Type = 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN';

INSERT INTO Unit_AITypes (UnitType, UnitAIType) SELECT 'UNIT_MUSKETMAN', 'UNITAI_FAST_ATTACK';

INSERT INTO Unit_AITypes (UnitType, UnitAIType) SELECT 'UNIT_MUSKETMAN', 'UNITAI_ATTACK';

UPDATE Units SET GoodyHutUpgradeUnitClass = 'UNITCLASS_RIFLEMAN' WHERE Type = 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN';

UPDATE Unit_ClassUpgrades SET UnitClassType = 'UNITCLASS_RIFLEMAN' WHERE UnitType = 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN';

DELETE From Unit_FreePromotions WHERE UnitType = 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN' AND PromotionType = 'PROMOTION_NAVAL_MISFIRE';

DELETE From Unit_FreePromotions WHERE UnitType = 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN' AND PromotionType = 'PROMOTION_ONLY_DEFENSIVE';

DELETE From Unit_FreePromotions WHERE UnitType = 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN' AND PromotionType = 'PROMOTION_BARRAGE_1';

INSERT INTO Unit_FreePromotions (UnitType, PromotionType) SELECT 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN', 'PROMOTION_DRILL_1';

UPDATE Units SET ObsoleteTech = 'TECH_REPLACEABLE_PARTS' WHERE Type = 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN';

UPDATE Units SET Cost = '300' WHERE Type = 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN';

UPDATE Units SET FaithCost = '375' WHERE Type = 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN';

 

[zwei833]

Updated to v.3 2016/8/9
- fix DLC dependency issue
- new unit icon for Free Company
- Technology Large Weapons renamed to Large Cold Arms
- Rewrite part of unit codes, which would greatly improve new civilization mods' compatibility. Credit to Chrisy15, who rewrite the code


Direct Download | Steam Subscribe

RER update to V.3, no big changes, but please check the re-written code by Chrisy15, which may help you fixing the UU upgrade/obsolete issue much easier.

 

[pandasnail]

And the civpedia stuff for Minutemen. Pretty generic,, but nothing is false.

UPDATE Language_en_US
SET Text = 'The Minuteman is the American unique unit, replacing the Line Infantry. The Minuteman can move through difficult terrain without penalty.'
WHERE Tag = 'TXT_KEY_UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN_STRATEGY';

UPDATE Language_en_US
SET Text = 'Only the Americans may build it. This Unit may move through rough ground as though it were flat, unlike the Line Infantry which it replaces.'
WHERE Tag = 'TXT_KEY_UNIT_HELP_MINUTEMAN';

 

[Xony]

That's another one where I prefer the overlapping distinctiveness of the two units vs a real quick upgrade myself. Light Infantry has one range, but has higher CS.

Yeah, the Musketmen is distinctive to the Light Infantry instead of a straightup upgrade, so they are supposed to be existing at the same time and both upgrading to Gatling gun later.

Does it work with the Minuteman DefaultUnitAi on Defensive when there is no corresponding line under Unit_AITypes?

Thank you for the headsup with Chrisy15s code, zwei833. Will take a look.

 

[pandasnail]

Yeah, the Musketmen is distinctive to the Light Infantry instead of a straightup upgrade, so they are supposed to be existing at the same time and both upgrading to Gatling gun later.

Does it work with the Minuteman DefaultUnitAi on Defensive when there is no corresponding line under Unit_AITypes?

So apparently, I forgot to change Musketman to Minuteman into two formulas, should be this. Sorry!

INSERT INTO Unit_AITypes (UnitType, UnitAIType) SELECT 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN', 'UNITAI_FAST_ATTACK';

INSERT INTO Unit_AITypes (UnitType, UnitAIType) SELECT 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN', 'UNITAI_ATTACK';


As to your question, I think? I'm sorta confused by these AI types, but I've done it the same way Gazebo has it for the units he's changed or created. Maybe it should be insert, not update, since, I already deleted the others, is that you are saying? That would be for Minuteman

INSERT INTO Unit_AITypes = 'UNITAI_DEFENSE' WHERE Type = 'UNIT_AMERICAN_MINUTEMAN';

and for Cossack

INSERT INTO Unit_AITypes = 'UNITAI_FAST_ATTACK' WHERE Type = 'UNIT_RUSSIAN_COSSACK';

 

[pandasnail]

Yeah, looking at how Gazebo moved Cossack from Melee to Ranged again, I think all the AI should be the Inserts not the the updates, so the ones in the my last post. Sorry sorry sorry. That should be the end of editing the two units tho, unless balance changes are required.

 

[Xony]

No problem. It sometimes gets quite confusing with the different commands. I changed them in the new mod version, hope I didn't made an error myself

 

[riyanme]

RER update to V.3, no big changes, but please check the re-written code by Chrisy15, which may help you fixing the UU upgrade/obsolete issue much easier.

is this fully compatible with complete VOX and EE?