FXS needs to put out a new roadmap - direction of the game is unclear

[Xandinho]

In Exploration, I actually find the Economic victory path to be much more engaging than science (place specialists) and culture (micro manage missionaries and click an action button).

I know there are issues with the treasure fleets with map generation especially; but it’s obvious that more of the budget/energy went into its development than other paths in Exploration.

Indeed, I think legacy paths should involve more than just “unlock technology/civic X,” “build Y,” or “send missionaries to convert Z and gain a relic.” That’s the problem with scripting.
I like the science path during the Exploration era, but it’s far too easy. The culture path is by far the least engaging for me, since not only is it overly easy, but also uninspiring, as it involves almost no real strategy—just sending missionaries to certain places to obtain relics from their conversions, then building temples to house them, and that’s it.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Indeed, I think legacy paths should involve more than just “unlock technology/civic X,” “build Y,” or “send missionaries to convert Z and gain a relic.” That’s the problem with scripting.
I like the science path during the Exploration era, but it’s far too easy. The culture path is by far the least engaging for me, since not only is it overly easy, but also uninspiring, as it involves almost no real strategy—just sending missionaries to certain places to obtain relics from their conversions, then building temples to house them, and that’s it.

The worst part of religion (which to be fair was fixed somewhat) is finding a city that applies to your relics. I usually don't bother with those and pick the city state one or one of the other more mundane ones.

 

[agamemnon_of_the-bronze_]

To piggy back on this briefly, the Exploration age is hampered by the distant lands railroad. An alternative would be to provide all civs a way to achieve the legacy paths without engaging in the distant lands mechanic (similar to Tokshana), but to provide additional bonuses for players who choose to engage. For example, perhaps the Non Sufficit Orbis legacy path should still reward for homeland settlements and conquest, but could provide modifiers for civs who choose to engage in distant lands conquering and warfare (2x modifier). Additionally, the treasure resources could be exploited on your homelands via conquering/pillaging, or taxing existing trade routes by settling in key locations, while also maintaining the ability to provide larger benefits to the player willing to take the risk and settle overseas.

Right now, it feels as if the Exploration and Modern (to a lesser extent) legacy paths are like a tutorial system - "Please interact with this new feature, distant lands" which feels like a gamey railroad.

if i am playing a land power, i should not have to interact with the distant lands feature at all. civs like China, Russia and the Ottomans have no business expanding overseas. they should be incentivized to expand to their immediate periphery.

 

[Krikkit1]

if i am playing a land power, i should not have to interact with the distant lands feature at all. civs like China, Russia and the Ottomans have no business expanding overseas. they should be incentivized to expand to their immediate periphery.

Except they are. They get higher Settlement Limits in Exploration and territory is it’s own reward. (also the Science and Religion Legacies have nothing to do with Distant Lands)

That said, you should be able to get the Treasure Convoys for the Economic Legacy with some diplomacy with Distant Land Civs.

And Science Legacy and Religion need Massive improvements.

 

[Gorbles]

In Exploration, I actually find the Economic victory path to be much more engaging than science (place specialists) and culture (micro manage missionaries and click an action button).

I know there are issues with the treasure fleets with map generation especially; but it’s obvious that more of the budget/energy went into its development than other paths in Exploration.

I think it helps that it's had the Treasure Fleet / resource generation pass since release. I don't think the other Exploration victory paths have had something that targets their function quite as much? If at all? But I could've forgotten.

 

[Krikkit1]

I think it helps that it's had the Treasure Fleet / resource generation pass since release. I don't think the other Exploration victory paths have had something that targets their function quite as much? If at all? But I could've forgotten.

There was the new set of beliefs for Religion (although that was more about allowing 10+ player games)

But religion does need more work (and they have said it is a thing they are looking at)

 

[Krajzen]

By the way, does anybody have any ideas for exploration era non-eurocentric (aka non treasure fleets) goals that would fit the historical period?

Personally I'd say exploration era should instead focus on one of the following goals, or all three of them at once:
1) Reaching industrial revolution and capitalism via doing XYZ economic actions and accumulating ABC advances; one of the ways to do so may be damn treasure fleets or whatever to simulate oversea colonialism, but please don't make it the only option. Besides that (or instead of that) you should also achieve certain milestones in city/economy development, trade routes, production, agriculture etc.
2) Reaching scientific revolution via doing XYZ scientific/cultural/religious actions and reforms needed to blabla establish proper scientific method. Building universities and academies, sponsoring great scientists, exploring the world, reforming religion (whatever that means) to be more acommodating to scientific innovation etc.
3) Building strong institutional/bureaucratic state capable of doing the entire industrial capitalist business - that part is the hardest for me to envision given the current mechanics of the game. Maybe something about passing the reforms that inevitably force you to fight powerful rebellious interest groups? Especially landowners, the enemy of every state modernization effort ever Alternate idea: the need to accumulate prestige of a powerful empire via doing certain diplomatic actions or just being big and mighty.

Those goals should put players against each other - that'd be the best achieved under point 1) with fight over trade routes or monopolies or whatnot and 3) with the competition to be the most prestigious imperial court, 2) would be more about passive competition.

 

[stealth_nsk]

By the way, does anybody have any ideas for exploration era non-eurocentric (aka non treasure fleets) goals that would fit the historical period?

I think it would be interesting to focus economic victory on far away resources, which could be aquired both by settlement and trade.

From gameplay perspective, the exploration age should still be about expanding and exploring.

 

[Lebo44]

By the way, does anybody have any ideas for exploration era non-eurocentric (aka non treasure fleets) goals that would fit the historical period?

Likely something centered around charting and uncovering the world. So maybe exploring the map, discovering and conquering Natural Wonders and new resources, engaging with independent powers, being first/second to discover techs/masteries related to exploration etc.

 

[queenpea]

What if we could score points by stock piling gold? With the right interface (for example slotted luxury resources could generate gpt, etc), the concept of a royal vault could be gamified.

Could be fun to role play Mansa Musa!

 

[Lebo44]

What if we could score points by stock piling gold? With the right interface (for example slotted luxury resources could generate gpt, etc), the concept of a royal vault could be gamified.

Could be fun to role play Mansa Musa!

Very interesting idea but more related to Economic or Cultural Path. To make it more interesting I would see a Throne Room back where you could use all that gold to decorate it extravagantly. The most lavish palace wins!

 

[socratic]

By the way, does anybody have any ideas for exploration era non-eurocentric (aka non treasure fleets) goals that would fit the historical period?

Personally I'd say exploration era should instead focus on one of the following goals, or all three of them at once:
1) Reaching industrial revolution and capitalism via doing XYZ economic actions and accumulating ABC advances; one of the ways to do so may be damn treasure fleets or whatever to simulate oversea colonialism, but please don't make it the only option. Besides that (or instead of that) you should also achieve certain milestones in city/economy development, trade routes, production, agriculture etc.
2) Reaching scientific revolution via doing XYZ scientific/cultural/religious actions and reforms needed to blabla establish proper scientific method. Building universities and academies, sponsoring great scientists, exploring the world, reforming religion (whatever that means) to be more acommodating to scientific innovation etc.
3) Building strong institutional/bureaucratic state capable of doing the entire industrial capitalist business - that part is the hardest for me to envision given the current mechanics of the game. Maybe something about passing the reforms that inevitably force you to fight powerful rebellious interest groups? Especially landowners, the enemy of every state modernization effort ever Alternate idea: the need to accumulate prestige of a powerful empire via doing certain diplomatic actions or just being big and mighty.

Those goals should put players against each other - that'd be the best achieved under point 1) with fight over trade routes or monopolies or whatnot and 3) with the competition to be the most prestigious imperial court, 2) would be more about passive competition.

The time period Exploration takes place in has a lot of cultural golden ages, think the Islamic Golden Age, the Japanese Heian Period, and the Renaissance. Maybe an alternate cultural legacy path focusing on internal development instead of expansion. It could be centered around getting Great Works, making use of Traditions, and optimizing your cities for high culture.

 

[queenpea]

Very interesting idea but more related to Economic or Cultural Path. To make it more interesting I would see a Throne Room back where you could use all that gold to decorate it extravagantly. The most lavish palace wins!

Oh I thought that’s what we were talking about — alternative to treasure fleets.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

As far as Economics goes you could maybe form a specific Guild in the Exploration Age, maybe resource based, and then your Guild could progress into a Corporation in the Modern Age.
Corporations might be too similar to the idea of slotting resources into factories, but maybe they could rework that and make the railroad connections as an alternate victory condition?

 

[Kenshiro70]

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Based on the thoughtful discourse here, I've added a section in my post-mortem on the importance of a roadmap (copied below plus deep link).

Thanks to everyone here for the wonderful discussions which helped inspire that update. I appreciate you.

The Thought Leadership land rush​

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A roadmap does something even more important than just setting out a vision and listing features. Done well, it establishes the developer and game as a thought leader. It's akin to staking prospecting claims in a gold rush. if you're the first to establish a compelling vision for a particular gameplay area or mechanic and are then able to execute, you'll be seen as the innovator in that area. Even if someone else does the same thing 20% better, it won't matter - they'll be seen as the follower.

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Those thought leadership claims aren't forever; they reset about every five to ten years. Interestingly enough, with both Humankind and Millennia failing to stick the landing, the window for establishing thought leadership in the "stone age to space age" 4X space was wide open.

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Note the use of the past tense in that statement. That's because the Ara: History Untold 2.0 update (link) just staked out thought leadership claims for a significant portion of the landscape. Oxide Games (and Stardock) are attempting to "run the table" and make Firaxis play by Oxide's rules. And so far they are succeeding -- Ara 2.0 is making a compelling case for establishing the definition and rules for what a next-gen "stone age to space age" 4X should be.

And Firaxis? Firaxis hasn't even shown up to compete. They are in danger of forfeiting thought leadership in the genre that they created.

 

[Siptah]

[/float]Note the use of the past tense in that statement. That's because the Ara: History Untold 2.0 update (link) just staked out thought leadership claims for a significant portion of the landscape. Oxide Games (and Stardock) are attempting to "run the table" and make Firaxis play by Oxide's rules. And so far they are succeeding -- Ara 2.0 is making a compelling case for establishing the definition and rules for what a next-gen "stone age to space age" 4X should be.

Is Oxide doing that? Yes, their 2.0 massively improved the player numbers in the first week after release.
But how many people are registering what happens to Ara? Gamalytic shows less than 50k owners. Similarly, the massive improvement of concurrent players is from a very low base. PlayTracker now estimates that 5k players are playing Ara these days (with a huge error margin).

So, as long as Ara stays super-niche, I don't think they are making anyone play by their rules. The game (also due to very suboptimal marketing) was a mere footnote at release, and this hasn't changed yet.

 

[itix]

Civ (and Firaxis) still have an advantage: Civilization is an established and well-known franchise. It is still a leader, but it could lose its crown to Paradox/EUV. Not because Civ players would switch to EUV, but because EUV has a chance to become the next best seller in the strategy genre. Paradox is marketing EUV aggressively; they have onboarded youtubers and push their ads everywhere.

 

[Krajzen]

The time period Exploration takes place in has a lot of cultural golden ages, think the Islamic Golden Age, the Japanese Heian Period, and the Renaissance. Maybe an alternate cultural legacy path focusing on internal development instead of expansion. It could be centered around getting Great Works, making use of Traditions, and optimizing your cities for high culture.

Sorry but a personal pet peeve: "Golden age" is a meaningless concept without clear definition and obviously ancient and industrial eras also have countless "golden ages" understood as "a vague time of a good economic growth and vaguely defined cultural flowering" (my least favourite is definitely "islamic golden age" where the concept is stretched to its absurdity by the "good century" apparently being "literally everything across Muslim countries for 500 years is great and then at an arbitrary moment literally everything becomes worse in all Muslim countries for next 700 years") (bonus points for "Mongols ending islamic science" while it only became really stagnant by 1600)

...so I don't see the reason why exploration age must be the "good times for culture era", unlike the famously bad times of cultural stagnation such as ancient Greece, ancient Rome, ancient India, ancient China or 19th century Britain and France

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

...so I don't see the reason why exploration age must be the "good times for culture era", unlike the famously bad times of cultural stagnation such as ancient Greece, ancient Rome, ancient India, ancient China or 19th century Britain and France

I definitely understand their intent, but I do agree that using the term "Golden Age" isn't probably the best term for it.
Perhaps having an alternative path centered around "Humanism" is more appropriate as the opposite of founding a religion and requiring relics?

 

[Krikkit1]

I definitely understand their intent, but I do agree that using the term "Golden Age" isn't probably the best term for it.
Perhaps having an alternative path centered around "Humanism" is more appropriate as the opposite of founding a religion and requiring relics?

It would help if more of those adjacency boosters had some penalties.