FYROM dates back at least to years 1539 - 1603 AD

Domen

Domen

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Pretty interesting, it seems that FYROMIAN ethnicity and language date back to the 16th century (at least):

http://historum.com/european-histor...chok-period-68.html#post1810622?postcount=675

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Linguist Hieronymus Megiser comparing various languages (circa year 1603):

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"Introductio in Chaldaicam linguam, Syriacam, atque Armenicam, & decem alias linguas" (circa year 1539):

1932444_832719230087110_1415974354_n.jpg


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Macedonian was regarded as a distinct language from Greek even in Classical times, especially if you were a Greek. However - as was mentioned on the other thread - historical 'Macedonia' (now a province of Greece) and the modern state of Macedonia are not the same. Compare Azerbaijan, which is the name originally given to a region of what is now Iran, but for some reason seems to have migrated to the Caucasus.
 
Obviously Macedonian language listed by Hieronymus Megiser in 1603 was Slavonic, as you can see when reading that line.

So it's not the same language as that which existed in Ancient times. But this language has also been called Macedonian since at least 1603.

However - as was mentioned on the other thread - historical 'Macedonia' (now a province of Greece) and the modern state of Macedonia are not the same.
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Historical province of Macedonia divides into 3 parts - Vardar, Aegean and Pirin (of which Vardar corresponds to modern state of Macedonia):

partition.jpg


But despite the fact that modern state of Macedonia includes only Vardar, many of its citizens are descendants of people from Aegean.

Those Slavic-speaking Macedonians were deported from their native province of Aegean during the 1920s.

Although Aegean part belongs to Greece today, Greeks were not a majority in this region in 1913:

Total population of Aegean in 1913 - 1,052,227 - including:

Slavs - 370,371 (35,2%)
Turks - 274,052 (26,0%)
Greeks - 236,755 (22,5%)
Jews - 68,206 (6,5%)
Vlachs - 44,414 (4,2%)

This changed only as the result of post-1913 population movements (deportation of native local Slavs, immigration of Asian foreigners):

ethnic02.jpg


In total 130,010 native Macedonian Slavs were deported, while at the same time 618,199 Christian colonists from Asia Minor came.

Many of those foreign newcomers to Macedonia from Asia Minor did not even speak Greek, but Turkish or some funny local dialects:

They identified as "Greeks" only because they were Christians - not Muslims. But their language was in many cases not Greek:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanlides

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A CAMP SCHOOL FOR CHILDREN OF REFUGEES AT SALONIKI

The Anatloian "Greeks", exiles for many centuries from their native land, spoke a tongue different from that spoken by the Greek proper. Therefore the first duty of the Greek Government was to teach Anatolian "Greeks" to speak Greek.
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There are also many people with Albanian ancestry among modern Greeks:

Attica used to be populated mostly by Albanian people around year 1830:

This is according to an English book published in 1855 (MDCCCLV):

Albanian_Athens.png


From:

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The largest city of the Aegean region was also not Greek in 1913.

Population of the city of Salonica in 1913 was as follows:

In total - 157,889 inhabitants - including:

Jews - 61,439 (38,9%)
Turks - 45,867 (29,1%)
Greeks - 39,956 (25,3%)
Slavs - 10,627 (6,8%)

And it had been like that since at least around year 1500:

Proportion of Jews, Greeks and Turks:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Saloniki_population_graph.png

Saloniki_population_graph.png
 
Some 500 years living under relative oppression under the Ottomans sure gets people together.
 
Flying Pig said:
Compare Azerbaijan, which is the name originally given to a region of what is now Iran, but for some reason seems to have migrated to the Caucasus.
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It is more accurate to say Azerbaijan expanded into the Caucasus. Iran still has a region named Azerbaijan where the same people live as in the likewise named country. Unless I am missing something.
 
Ah, that may be right - my understanding was that the Caucasus state was named because people thought 'Azerbaijan' was somewhere in that area but got it slightly wrong, or out of irredentism.
 
How close is modern Macedonian to Bulgarian (or is there something closer)? Interesting to see that there might have been a distinct identity even back then.

Of course, if there was a perceived identity back then, it shows how stupid the term "FYROM" is. A "former Yugoslav Republic" that predates Yugoslavia would be interesting indeed. ;)
 
Louis XXIV said:
How close is modern Macedonian to Bulgarian (or is there something closer)? Interesting to see that there might have been a distinct identity even back then.
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I used to think of Macedonian as a Serbo-Croatian dialect, but it is also mutually intelligible with Bulgarian as well as Serbo-Croatian. I understand it and Bulgarians I know understand it too. While Serbo-Croatian and Bulgarian are similar but still distinct languages, Macedonian is somewhere in the middle.
 
Serbo-Croatian is spoken by Croats, Serbs, Montenegrins and Bosnians. Yet they don't get along very well.

Apparently the same language does not always mean the same national identity.

In case of Croats, Serbs and Bosnians there are mostly religious differences (Catholic, Orthodox, Muslim).

But Serbs and Montenegrins are both mostly Orthodox. What seems to separate them is history.

The F in this case stands for "future"
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This would be nice. I think resurrecting Yugoslavia is not a bad idea. It would be good for local economies.

But Bulgaria also needs to be included. They are not going to let Serbia "annex" Macedonia again.

I used to think of Macedonian as a Serbo-Croatian dialect, but it is also mutually intelligible with Bulgarian as well as Serbo-Croatian.
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So it seems to be something intermediary, which is not surprising because Macedonia is located between Serbia and Bulgaria...

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BTW - Polish heavy folk band, Percival Schuttenbach, composed an album with folk songs of South Slavic nations, you can find a playlist here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRArd1ncE30&list=PLx6XHEs_em-DDtdt8vBzD2QLqbS3c6TiN&index=1

At least one folk song from each South Slavic country is included in this album. Some countries are represented by more than one.

They are singing in native languages of these countries (and to be honest, I can't understand anything but I can't also spot differences).
 
I hope you realise that the only thing that kept Yugoslavia upfront was that it was ruled by one charismatic Joseph Tito, who promised them neither Soviet Union, neither USA, but Yugoslavia solely.
 
Tolni said:
I hope you realise that the only thing that kept Yugoslavia upfront was that it was ruled by one charismatic Joseph Tito, who promised them neither Soviet Union, neither USA, but Yugoslavia solely.
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Well, it wasn't just Tito and neutrality. The thing that mostly kept Yugoslavia upfront was a steadily growing economy and rising standards of living until the late seventies. 'Ethnic tesions' -or a racial or religious equivalent- exist in most countries but are easily ignored as long as people have work and can reasonably expect to improve their lot in life. It is only when the economy crashes and things go downhill that the nationalists -or their equivalents- come out of the woodwork and mutual scapegoating begins. It might be slightly more likely in a country that is relatively new and composed of different nationalities with diferent histories and traditions, but rising ethnic tension is a symptom and an accelerant for civil war and dissolution. it is not the cause.
 
Yep, the peoples of the Ottoman Empire were mixed to a degree that modern nationalists and their nation-states will never dare admit. Interesting stuff.
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even if one must avoid Makedonia to the fullest possible extent possible , would that be because the "Great Powers" do have a track record of exploiting the differences on racial , etnical and many other -al forms of actions that it ends in a general bloodbath ? Nation thing is a choice , if immigrants to America or Australia can choose to be Americans or Australians how can immigrans or locals not choose to be Ottomans or Turks ?

america and Germany are long trying to have a military base in Trabzon where they can convince the Black Sea people that they are actually Greeks of some sort , just like Incirlik has long been a visible support for the dear seperatists . As if those same Black Sea people are not accused of "genociding" the said Greeks of some sort .
 
youtube is banned in Turkey , can't say whether there is something ı should see .
 
Domen said:
Pretty interesting, it seems that FYROMIAN ethnicity and language date back to the 16th century (at least)
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I don't see how the evidence you give shows this. The linked-to discussion concerns national identity, but it's about the nineteenth century. The books you show are interesting, but they say nothing about "ethnicity" or identity or anything like that; they show only that the Macedonian language existed in the sixteenth century. But these books also cover Latin, Chaldean, Syriac, etc. - languages which, while they may technically have been still living at the time, were no longer associated with particular ethnicities or national identities.
 
they show only that the Macedonian language existed in the sixteenth century. But these books also cover Latin, Chaldean, Syriac, etc. - languages which, while they may technically have been still living at the time, were no longer associated with particular ethnicities
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But language called "Macedonian" by that source from 1603 is a Slavic language.
 
And English is a European language, spoken in Singapore.

EDIT: 'Germanic' was more technical but probably not quite right.
 
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