G-III Kappa

[AutomatedTeller]

1415 is a great date!!

I have found it fairly normal to have times, especially in the industrial age, where you are building no culture, at least on a map like this - once hoover and wall street are done, you have refinining, steel, combustion, mass production, motorized transport and flight with no culture at all!! (which is a statement on the 20th century if you ask me!) - if you take 4 turns out, you can get espionage or battlefield medicine.

On lower levels, you will often still have leo's to build during this time.

Esoth - the 20K victory is not an easy win condition, particularly at Emperor. You will end up with a smaller empire than you normally would.

And there are some very, very good players here. I have learned a lot from my games here

 

[Elear]

My problem with 20k games is that I always forget to expand my empire. I end up with a OCC, and a late date.

 

[Tone]

My problem with 20k games is that I always forget to expand my empire. I end up with a OCC, and a late date.

I tend to build a settler quite early. I'm never quite sure though which is the best order to build the extra worker, the settler, the temple and Colossus. Maybe it's different for each level and maybe also dependant upon what's out there beyond the capital boundaries. I think I prefer them in the order above for Emperor or maybe switch the setller and extra worker around if there's a food bonus for the second city.

 

[azzaman333]

What are the best/most important AA wonders for a 20k run?

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I almost always build the settler before building collossus, except on Sid. On Sid, you can get beaten to collosus even if you start with it :lol!

Most important AA wonders for 20K are the high culture ones:

Collosus - inexpensive, good culture, available right away if you are scientific.
Great Library
Statue of Zeus (trading for ivory as early as possible is important - so much that youi might want to dedicate a galley/settler just to set up a trading port)
Oracle
Pyramids (truly the most important wonder of the game in terms of it's effects unless you have a small island, but boy is it expensive - on an emperor level game, it often doesnt' get built unless by SGL)
Hanging Gardens (not only good culture for small shields, but the happiness is really nice, too!!)

In a game like this, if I got an early SGL, I would use it for pyramids. if I got a 2nd, I would probably save it for the GLib, or maybe ToA.

My build order is usually something like "warrior or curragh (if I have alpha), settler, collosus." I don't usually build the temple till after collossus and sometimes until after oracle - it depends on whether the happiness allows me to save money by turning down the lux slider.

Research is eitehr CB/Mysticism, then up writing, etc... or just straight up writing for the slingshot. If you try byzantium, I might recommend that (or maybe CB for the temple and perhaps a quick SGL) since with 3 move curraghs, you should be able to make contacts for Masonry and the pyramids fast,and if you get CB out there, others will research mysticism for you. Or you go the culture route - either way.

ToA is a priority, but not a vital one - it is expensive. I usually won't build either GW or Lighthouse at all at this level - they don't have good culture, and they will fall in cascades.

After the AA, the drive is for Shakespeare's, maybe stopping off for copernicus on the way - or not - the AI may research astronomy for you - and of course picking up Bach's. After that, it's usually a drive for the IA and rails and factories, with stops at various optionals (like music theory) as needed to get the tech.

The IA sucks for wonders. There are about 11 in the middle ages, and 3 (4 with wall street) in the IA. if you don't have a river, there are 2 (3 with wall street) The big thing is to get through here. if you havent' had a lot of war, go get 'em. You should be ahead in tech, so it's a matter of farming for leaders and hoping the other tech guys (commercial civs you've been cultivating) are able to get at least one of sanitation or espionage for you.

 

[azzaman333]

Hmm... I need to try this on a Pangaea...

 

[Tone]

What are the best/most important AA wonders for a 20k run?

Well others might disagree but the following are my top four. All have good culture:shield cost ratios and have other benefits.
Pyramids: helps your empire grow when you are spending too much time building silly wonders!
Colossus: Financial boost helps research, especially when your empire is small.
SoZ: ACs rock and again it helps (slightly) redress the balance of building too many wonders. Fantastic culture:shield cost ratio.
GLib: On lower levels it's just the high culture that I'm after but on the higher levels it helps you keep up in the tech race. You can spend that spare cash on short-rushing a library, a cathedral and a colosseum instead of funding tech trading activities.
Honourable mention: Hanging Gardens for happiness boost if luxes are thin on the ground.

 

[Tone]

Hmm... I need to try this on a Pangaea...

If you are happy with the tech pace I would agree wholeheartedly.

@AT. Well my top four are in your top six so I guess I wasn't too far out!

 

[sanabas]

I tend to build a settler quite early. I'm never quite sure though which is the best order to build the extra worker, the settler, the temple and Colossus. Maybe it's different for each level and maybe also dependant upon what's out there beyond the capital boundaries. I think I prefer them in the order above for Emperor or maybe switch the setller and extra worker around if there's a food bonus for the second city.

If you're struggling at that level normally, i would go worker, colossus, settler, temple.

If there's an extra food bonus nearby, I would go settler, culture, and use the second city for the workers.

All else being equal, I will usually go worker, worker, temple, settler, colossus

One rule of thumb to use is that you always want to be working your food bonus squares. So if you have 3 cows, you do not want to build a worker or settler, other than an initial worker, unless you are size 4-6. If you only have one cow, you can build workers at size 2. You never want to grow above size 6, until you are ready to jump straight to size 12. The exception to that is when you are above your comfort level, and are building the colossus early to make sure you get it, and have to drop from size 7 or 8 when you build workers, settler. But not going above size 6 means that unless I have 10-12 fully improved squares, and 5 spare workers to join the city, I will usually build a worker in my 20k city at size 6.

What are the best/most important AA wonders for a 20k run?

The only ones that give you much benefit beyond culture are colossus, which makes a huge difference to your research, SoZ if you have ivory, as it lets you go and play with the ancient cav and hopefully get a leader, and great library if you are at a high level. Shakespeare's is the most important one, but it isn't AA. On a lower level without ivory nearby, colossus is important, the rest only really matter according to how much culture they produce.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I don't understand - why not get above size 6, sanabas? You mean, you will produce a worker from your 20K city after building a wonder if you are atsize 7, say, and arent' ready for a jump to 12?

 

[nerovats]

until size 7 your city grows fast, to grow past 7 you need twice the food, thus it might be better to first build 5-6 workers cheap (in tearms of food) then join them again and be a lot sooner at size 12.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

true - but if you build, say, 3 extra workers that way, that's 10 shields (or more, perhaps) + the 1 or 2 you lose for each worker. if your capitol has the only food bonus,then sure.

I (usually) try to set up a 2 or 3 turn worker factory and after size 6, grow the capitol a worker at a time.

 

[sanabas]

I don't understand - why not get above size 6, sanabas? You mean, you will produce a worker from your 20K city after building a wonder if you are atsize 7, say, and arent' ready for a jump to 12?

what Nerovats said. I'll only handbuild 1 wonder + temple at most before I'm size 12. Ideally I'll only build the temple. It takes 20 food to grow each time, up until you go from 6 to 7. It takes 40 to grow each time once you're size 7, with the added problem that if you build a worker or settler and drop back to 6, you will empty the food box, regardless of how much was there. Each worker I build while size 6 or smaller costs me 20 food + 10 shields, can be used to improve tiles, and can be used to add population once I have 10-12 tiles improved. Each worker I build while size 7 or bigger costs me 40 food + 10 shields, letting my city grow to size 12 naturally costs me 40 food per population, and takes a long time. Much better to spend half the food, and use those workers to improve things, as you get to size 12, working 12 fully improved tiles, far, far quicker. And the main factor in how fast you win a 20k game is how fast you can build culture. The only things that effect that from a given start are how fast you get to size 12, working 12 tiles, then getting to size 20, working 20 tiles ASAP, which is why Shakespeare's is so important, and why you want to have 8 workers spare to join the city once you build it, getting your 20 tiles RRed ASAP. The other thing is tech pace, so you have culture available to build, and so you maximise your chances of an SGL.

 

[sanabas]

true - but if you build, say, 3 extra workers that way, that's 10 shields (or more, perhaps) + the 1 or 2 you lose for each worker. if your capitol has the only food bonus,then sure.

I (usually) try to set up a 2 or 3 turn worker factory and after size 6, grow the capitol a worker at a time.

You lose a lot of shields that way. It works fine if your capital is already fully improved. But there's at least 108 (12x9) worker turns of stuff to do to fully improve your capital, and adding workers from your factory is no good if they don't have tiles to work.

 

[azzaman333]

Aarrgghhh, I hate the Aztecs. The bastards declared war on me while I was learning to Bank, and promptly captured or razed at least 7 cities, and was into my core with at least 6 swords. Istanble's 1 archer had no chance, so I quit. I had even got a Ceremonial Burial SGL for Pyramids. Monty is staying out of my next game...

 

[Tone]

Monty is staying out of my next game...

I'd say keep him in and forge an alliance with every other civ asap. Revenge is sweet. Better luck next time.

 

[azzaman333]

I'm keeping him away for now, but I'll get my revenge. I wont forget his sneak attack easily...

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Play with the less aggressive civ settings

I almost never pick agri civs to play against in a high level gauntlet game - they expand way to fast and become too strong. Commercial civs are good, cause they can help with research later on.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

btw - only reason I put Oracle on that list is that it's less expensive than Pyramids. On this level, you can reasonably assume you can get Collosus, Oracle, Glib, SoZ (if you can get ivory) and Hanging Gardens. Pyramids is tough without an SGL, and ToA is tough, as well as maybe not worth it. (there is a good chance that by the time you are about done with ToA, you will have Theology, and so you might as well just finish Sistine's and not worry about it falling to cascade from leo's or Sun Tzu's)

It's effects aren't really that important.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

looking back on Tone's date: part of the reason you weren't building culture buildings was that you built so many with SGL's!

btw - I'm playing a pretty good game now, with 3 scientific rivals who have gotten me feudalism, chivalry, invention, mettalurgy, medicine and mil tradition - I'm still behind you in research! (960 AD, a few turns from sci method)