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[G&K] How do I get that crazy Science?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Jensonian, Jul 21, 2013.

  1. Jensonian

    Jensonian Chieftain

    Joined:
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    First off, amazing forum. I got my first Science victory with the advice I read here. Played "Revolution" a bit, I like V much better. Playing with the Steam deal of gold upgrade (G&K plus all the other individual DLC, waiting a bit on BNW).

    Second, I've read people breaking a 1,000 to 2,000 beakers and I would like to know how it's done. Another post on this forum stated you have to go wide, but can it be done with a tall strategy?

    Thanks for any advice!

    Note: tried the search function and came up short, so I created this thread. A link in another guide would not allow me to view its content on scientific victory.
     
  2. Hieschen

    Hieschen Warlord

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    I suppose you still play GnK

    Science (bpt) is based on raw population times modifiers. So your first priority is getting high population in your cities. Read up on Tabarnaks excellent 4 cities tradition opening, the thread is never far down the first page.

    Next, writing is priority (should be first 4-5 techs you research). Should have/build buy libraries as soon as pop is 4 in a city.
    Beeline philosophy and get the National College asap (before T 90, but the sooner the better). Now aggressively go for education and asap build unis in your cities. If you managed growth correctly, you can immediately fill the specialist slots. Next you should aim for wonders like Pisa to get a GS and PT. Go for college tech and get them going, then pastics, get the labs. Always work the scientist slots in your buildings. If you have cities next to a mountain, build an observatory (astronomy).
    I plant GS until plastic, but a case can be made on keeping them and mass bulb them when bpt reach 1000+, timing to race through last part of the tech tree is key here. I tend to build oxford very late, but a case can be made to build it earlier and time it to reach key techs.
     
  3. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    is it better to save GS or to use it immediately?
    yes later your tech output is higher so GS gives more
    but burning it early gives you better buildings etc
    it seems its better to save only if you have many things to build yet?
     
  4. Hieschen

    Hieschen Warlord

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    Under GnK I would tend to bulb them later as the output is function of the bpt of the last few turns, hence the more bpt you produce, the more science they generate. Instead of bulping early in the game, I would plant them as they generate 8 bpt, so planting them and assigning a worker to work the tile seems a better deal in my opinion.

    This is no longer true in BNW, if I understand it correctly the GS gets the science boost attributed he had when he was spawned, so saving to bulb later makes no sense any more.
     
  5. Ryoga

    Ryoga King

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    Correct, this works for great writers and great musicians as well. Saving them up is only worthwhile when you are already in the late game.
     
  6. Falconiano

    Falconiano Prince

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    Many factors dictate your science.

    1) Ability to pop NC early with 3 cities (some make 4 but no difference really).
    2) Beelining Education/Astro(if mountain)/STheory/Plastic and using all specialists.
    3) Growing. At least 2 cities should be on par with enemy's capitals as far as pop goes.
    Stick them to food, nevermind the slower production - it pays off.
    4) Going runaway. You can get big bakkers with 4 cities, but more cities = more science.
    5) Rushing Rationalism.

    Still, map is going to be a big factor as well.
    Some starts have crappy resources which won't allow to grow a lot, or to produce science buildings fast.
     
  7. Deau

    Deau Emperor

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    You can achieve 1k BPT with OCC+scholasticism (at high difficulty enough for CSs to provide decent science) although it's extremely stretching it. It is fairly smooth to achieve with 3-4 city tradition standards.

    The prime element is to hardly ever halt growth. This doesn't just mean always working best food tiles but also having enough workers early in the game to farm those riverside/lakeside tiles and to always work improved tiles. It also typically means buying settlers rather than hard building them in the capital as it halts your growth there. Then you obviously need to be able to support that growth without dipping sub 0 happiness. Typically, the best wonder to achieve this are, from best to worse, Temple of Artemis for some buggy implementation that I won't discuss here. Next would be a petra start capital with more than 6 hills and last would be HG.

    3 cities size
    ~30-35
    18-22
    18-22

    With about 4 settled GSs in the capital and an appropriate setup of worked specialist tiles will let you beat 1k BPT.


    Achieving 2k BPT however you absolutely do need to go wide. You need about 10 cities sizes 15 or more (obv capital significantly higher). The issue with this is that unless you play higher level difficulty and earn great cities through war, you won't be able to achieve this by planting your own 10 cities or even stealing low level difficulty cities where there are only 2-3 buildings left after capture.
     
  8. Jensonian

    Jensonian Chieftain

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    Wow very informative, thank you. I asked about a tall strategy because i can comfortably manage that on Prince difficulty. After finishing my current game with Ethiopia I wanna look into getting into King, though ive read its quite the jump.
     
  9. Jensonian

    Jensonian Chieftain

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    As far as tech tree and wonders go, I am doing exactly that. BUT not planting GS, and I can see why now how important that is.

    My weak point is expansion. Viewing that guide you posted about should help quite a bit with my fear of expansion :D
     
  10. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Emperor

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    Nope, not true.

    Great writers and scientists are always based on the last 8 turns, even if you keep them.

    Great musicians are the only exception here. They have a predefined value (10x of your tourism output of the turn they spawned on).
     
  11. Free Gold

    Free Gold Chieftain

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    That is incorrect, I remember playing a game just recently and I was keeping tabs on Great Scientist "bulb value". His value went from 8500 to 9500 depending on what my past 8 turns of tech were. So no, great scientists still work as usual.
     
  12. Superwide

    Superwide Chieftain

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    The games in which i go as wide as possible, while having a lower bpt early on, end up having much more beakers later.
     
  13. Catan_Settler

    Catan_Settler Prince

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    If you want to do wide science, play as Maya. Make an effort to found cities besides mountains. To break 2k science you need about 10 or 12 size 8+ cities beside mountains. It's ok if your capital didn't spawn by a mountain, because you put your National Colleg there so it too gets a +50% beakers. With NC in cap, and observatories everywhere else your cities are all at +150% beakers (this is after 3 points in rationalism and building unis, observatories, public schools, research labs). Wide approach also means you are spreading your great scientists around, planting one per observatory city. Yes, you will have enough scientists for that eventually as long as you are focused on it. I like to go Liberty -> (up to 3 filler points in commerce if culture is booming) -> Rationalism (3 points up to university buff) -> Freedom (3 points to buff specialists). With a focus on mountainside cities, and an unrelenting push of settlers for the first 100 turns, you can do it. And no, they don't need to be giant cities. Typically 5~6 citizens working tiles will provide food for 3~4 specialists until you've got your freedom policies, then the city growth starts booming again cause then one Farm is not only feeding the farmer, but also feeding 2 science specialists.
     
  14. MasterElements

    MasterElements Chieftain

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    Babylon is best science victory civilization.
    Tech- Pottery > writing(Free GS, make tile improv I prefer a hill +2 prod +8 science)
    Build: Monument > scout > Great Library, while building research calender(it leads to philosophy), then B-line to math(Hanging gardens, note that if you have a majority of desert tiles skipping the gardens for Petra is also good I find you cannot feasably do both)
    When GL is done use free tech on philosophy and build it until math then switch to HG, if you are going for it, the HG is a world wonder and must be built first if you don't want to risk losing it. Buy a worker when you get the money and use your fist unit to guard it. Once the HG is finished, finish off the NC and B-line for education, I like to grab workshops while I am there and usually buy one to make it faster. Since you should only have one city build a univeristy(Or buy if you feel you can) and then build Oxford, congrats you've just hit the renaissance era before anyone else. I like to pick banking as my first renaissance tech as it has the constibulatory and you know people are going to send spys at you to steal all the tech you got. Also at this point if you are not boxed in THIS is the time to expand, ether by settling new cities or autocractically. My autocractic strat is usually to have 5 infantry units(Pikeman,muskettemen, riflemen) + 2 seige weapons and have the infantry defend and soak damage while the seige weapons do their work. Also note that you can take a city with an almost dead unit if the city is almost dead too.
    Wonders of note: Tower of pisa>Great engineer>Hijimi castle, Kremlin, The porcelin tower.
    Late game is pretty easy as if you've done it right you are several military tiers above everyone else, and then once you hit the apollo program turtle and build/science the hell out of everything.
    Policy: Tradition > wonder boost > free culture buildings > gold/happy > food in capital > garrision
    After you fill the Tradition tree save your culture for rationalism, I allow policy saving though. I can fill out a few policies by the time I get there at once. Then Freedom for great people and specialist bonus'

    I routinely crack 1k SPT(Science per turn), and have gone as high as 2400 with 7 cities, 4 of whom were puppets(Rome pissed me off)
     
  15. Jensonian

    Jensonian Chieftain

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    Been failing miserably with Babylon. It was India that granted me my first science victory.

    I have done that strategy Element but when I get to the industrial era everybody starts to catch up, and fast. I probably just need to expand more.
     
  16. MasterElements

    MasterElements Chieftain

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    Yes when you get oxford expand, I believe I said that, you should have a kickass economy(+50gtp) and a ton in the bank unless someone was a dick and forced you into a war, please note that this strat is an ideal situation thing. A single city cannot produce a science victory, they just don't get the population. You CAN though jump to the renaissance though and have guns before anyone else, and THAT is huge.
    Edit: Also note I play on Prince because I don't think a game should get harder simply by making the AI less agreeable and be given extra. Like how about making some of the personality types more focused? I mean I got a cultural victory with egypt in the middle of the renaissance, that happens pretty fast for some people.
     
  17. anthropophage

    anthropophage Warlord

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    A single city can produce a science victory. It needs to be a good city. You need lots of food, lots of hammers, lots of beakers and lots of gold.
    Generate plenty of great scientists and sign lots of research agreements. And don't miss out on key wonders like Pisa, Porcelain Tower and Hubble.
     
  18. MasterElements

    MasterElements Chieftain

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    Maybe on some of the lower difficulties but if you focused that much you would be attritioned by another civ by the industrial era.
     
  19. anthropophage

    anthropophage Warlord

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    I can do it on immortal. There are players on this forum who can do it on deity.

    It's not that difficult if you get the right starting spot.
     
  20. Jensonian

    Jensonian Chieftain

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    Just tried King difficulty with Korea

    Eventually ran out of food and Germany came knocking at my door. Great start, got to industrial era, it all went down the tubes.

    I'm gonna stick with Prince for a while to get all the mechanics down
     

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