G-Major 2

[godotnut]

This strategy is not a dice toss like a goody hut. Maintaining the peace takes diplomatic skill. Period. I'm not demeaning anyone's else's games in any way, but I'm just saying--this is different. I had no goody huts of consequence in any of these wins. I just traded and bargained and gifted my way to peaceful games. Sure, there is always some luck involved--but it's hardly a random thing like goody huts.

 

[Moonsinger]

This strategy is not a dice toss like a goody hut. Maintaining the peace takes diplomatic skill. Period. I'm not demeaning anyone's else's games in any way, but I'm just saying--this is different. I had no goody huts of consequence in any of these wins. I just traded and bargained and gifted my way to peaceful games. Sure, there is always some luck involved--but it's hardly a random thing like goody huts.

I concur! Exactly why no one has managed to beat your game yet. Like I said many times before, it's not easy regardless of using any exploit by the Incan warrior.

 

[godotnut]

@WastinTime:

Being able to shut down the AI on the Deity level with a few warriors for the entire game and basically play by yourself fits perfectly in the description AlanH gave for exploits

I think there must be a misunderstanding. I do not "basically play by myself." I am constantly interacting with the AI, trading, bargaining, using diplomacy. It is, in fact, impossible to win the way I describe by "basically playing by yourself." If you try to do that, the AI will attack you and you will die. If you don't trade very very well, the AI will launch the ship, and you will lose. The strategy requires intense interaction.

Also, there this strategy involves a "cost"--to use AlanH's term--that is, it's harder than heck to pull off. Here's the cost: when you try to play peacefully and diplomacy fails, you die. Sounds like a pretty big cost to me. I think anyone who has tried it will acknowledge that the approach puts you at extreme risk. Exploits don't do this. They offer an advantage with little or no cost.

It's not a race

Are we talking about the same game here? It's a race to beat the AI to launch their spaceship. This is a no brainer. Read the comments in this thread and notice how difficult it is--and how often we all lose this race. It's not only a race, it's a rather challenging one. You are an excellent and experienced player. I just don't see how you can make this claim in good faith. Again, maybe I am misunderstanding you.

I think the people who have lost their cultural games to the AI launching the space ship will be very surprised to learn that they weren't in a race.

Diplomacy and peace are obviously an essential part of the game. Are you saying that you have built a big army for all the Gauntlets you've played? I'll ask this question again--how is this peaceful strategy different from any of the other peaceful, builder-type strategies used in previous Gauntlets? If you want, I can go back and make a list of the Gauntlets that have been won by peaceful strategies, with either no war at all or a short early war followed by no war (exactly how I played my last game). Ironically, you yourself have done very well in some of these Gauntlets.

The strategy guide has received about 6,800 page views, and this is the first time anyone has described it as an exploit, so I really am surprised (I've heard nothing but positive feedback so far). If other people think this is an exploit, I would like to hear about it. Maybe we should pose it as a question to the community and staff.

(All that said, I still have a feeling Moonsinger is going to find a way to beat me... )

 

[Moonsinger]

I think there must be a misunderstanding. I do not "basically play by myself." I am constantly interacting with the AI, trading, bargaining, using diplomacy. It is, in fact, impossible to win the way I describe by "basically playing by yourself." If you try to do that, the AI will attack you and you will die. If you don't trade very very well, the AI will launch the ship, and you will lose. The strategy requires intense interaction.

Also, there this strategy involves a "cost"--to use AlanH's term--that is, it's harder than heck to pull off. Here's the cost: when you try to play peacefully and diplomacy fails, you die. Sounds like a pretty big cost to me. I think anyone who has tried it will acknowledge that the approach puts you at extreme risk. Exploits don't do this. They offer an advantage with little or no cost.

Exactly! One wrong move and I die. I didn't really want to say anything about my failure, but I have tried and failed (too many to count). As of this moment, I haven't yet able to pull off a culture win. I can't even do it for 2000AD! Can't even do it for 2050 AD!

(All that said, I still have a feeling Moonsinger is going to find a way to beat me... )

I think you over-estimate my skill. Just in case you still don't believe me, here is a save of my latest attempt. If you have time, please take a look and show me how I can pull this off. IMO, defeat is just over the honizon. If they don't kill me today, they will kill me tomorrow; nevertheless, I will see how far I will go with this one.

 

[WastinTime]

1. It doesn't matter how many cities the AI have, just camp 1 quechua right next to each of their cities. This would prevent their workers from improving the land and hooking up resources. They usually will stuck with 2 cities producing archers like forever which give us plenty of time to do whatever we please.

2. You will notice that the AI will keep exactly 2 archers defending each of their cities. Every now and then, they will finish producing the third archer. Guess what they will do with the third archer? They send the third archer on a suicide mission with less than 10% chance of success against your fortified quechua. If you camp your quechua in the forest/jungle/hill, it doesn't talke long for your quechua to get 3 or 4 promotions by just standing there. Btw, even if your quechua is at half strength, don't worry, stand the ground because the other 2 archers would not dare to attack. By the time he heals up, another third archer will come out to die.

3. Once in a blue moon the AI may get lucky; so you may want to send out an extra quechua or two just in case. If you have a worker, you can use him to lure one of the archer out then you would have only 1 archer to deal with. You may already hear people saying that the worker baiting trick doesn't always work, but it does work 99.99% for me.

Note: The secret is to camp just 1 quechua, not 2 or 3. If you camp more than one, the AI may abandon their suicide mission. Once they have changed their minds, it will be tough to convince them otherwise. They might be a suicide fanatic, but they aren't stupid. If you have more than 1 quechua, don't stack them.

I don't know about any strategy guide, I'm talking about the exploit Moonsinger explained (above). Followed by

I'm already on it Moonsinger. My recent standard and small map HOF Deity games were Quecha games.

Yup, it makes it easier in a lot of ways (landgrab!).

 

[Kalleyao]

This strategy is not a dice toss like a goody hut. Maintaining the peace takes diplomatic skill. Period. I'm not demeaning anyone's else's games in any way, but I'm just saying--this is different. I had no goody huts of consequence in any of these wins. I just traded and bargained and gifted my way to peaceful games. Sure, there is always some luck involved--but it's hardly a random thing like goody huts.

I talked about the 3835 BC games? anyway, Yes, the culture strategy isn't deprndant on goodies, but it's not peaceful. You need to win a lot battles with extreme low %. This is dice toss right? There's nothing you can do to raise your win %.

Diplomacy and peace are obviously an essential part of the game. Are you saying that you have built a big army for all the Gauntlets you've played? I'll ask this question again--how is this peaceful strategy different from any of the other peaceful, builder-type strategies used in previous Gauntlets? If you want, I can go back and make a list of the Gauntlets that have been won by peaceful strategies, with either no war at all or a short early war followed by no war (exactly how I played my last game). Ironically, you yourself have done very well in some of these Gauntlets.

Your strategy isn't peaceful anymore IIRC.

Exactly! One wrong move and I die. I didn't really want to say anything about my failure, but I have tried and failed (too many to count).

Maybe he's not interested in this All Or Nothing strategy?

 

[Moonsinger]

I don't know about any strategy guide, I'm talking about the exploit Moonsinger explained (above). Followed by

Well, there is actually a lot more to it than what I said. For example, after a certain date, both the third archer and the second archer will gang up on you and your quechua will die. Of course, by now, you should be able to stack 2 quechua next to their city and the third archer won't attack. However, the fourth archer will attack. Make sure one of your quechua is a healer; otherwise, both of them may die. Btw, the safest way is to destroy all their improvement and road then camp your quechua 1 square outside and wait for their archer to come out. This is the safest way.

Anyway, you can't possibly produce enough quechua to deal with all the AIs. Also, it really doesn't take long for some of the AI to roll out their axe or charriot. If this happen, you die. No matter how much begging and asking forgiveness, they still want war and you will die. Even when you have spotless relationship with them, they would still want to attack. I suppose...after seeing what you did to the other civs, they decide to give you a taste of your own poison. In the end, you would most likely get axed by just an axeman or get run over by a charriot. What I'm trying to say is that quechua exploit may not work in a culture game. It may sound good in theory, but in reality, it's very high risk.

 

[Moonsinger]

I talked about the 3835 BC games? anyway, Yes, the culture strategy isn't deprndant on goodies, but it's not peaceful. You need to win a lot battles with extreme low %. This is dice toss right? There's nothing you can do to raise your win %.

Actually, the odd is much better than you think. Unless your target date is 3835 BC, you would usually have more than 80% chance against archer. In most case, just hide in the forests and wait for them to attack you. I would say you have at least 99% chance for survival.

 

[Miraculix]

True! Take a look at the conquest games on the deity dual map. First, you need to find a start next to a goodie hut. Second, you hope to get a scout from your first hut. Third, you hope that the start is close by and their second settler is heading your way. Many times, the second settler is heading away from you. Fourth, you hope that their capital isn't on a hill. Fifth, you have around 28% chance or less to capture their capital. Sixth, you hope that your scout would find some goodie huts before 3880 BC. Seventh, you hope for a free tech from the huts.

There you go. In order to beat this level, lady luck has to smile on you at least 7 consecutive times. Although each game takes less than 2 minutes, the chance for this kind of luck would only come once in a million. In fact, I went out and bought some lottery ticket right after that. Sadly, I ended up with only 1 powerball and 2 white balls (the grand price of only $7 ). It's safe to say that I won't be trying my luck again any time soon.

Your #1 conquest/immortal/duel game seems even more difficult to achieve. On immortal, the capial is defended with 3 archers, while on deity there are only two defenders. I have spent quite some time trying to beat this game without any luck so far.

 

[Moonsinger]

Your #1 conquest/immortal/duel game seems even more difficult to achieve. On immortal, the capial is defended with 3 archers, while on deity there are only two defenders. I have spent quite some time trying to beat this game without any luck so far.

Yes, I concur! That took me a long time. Since I have a feeling that Shadowsong probably won't go there, I figure if I got lucky, I will be #1 for awhile. IMO, it's much more difficult than the deity level. One quechua needs to take out 3 archers. You can use the worker trick to lure one archer out in the open, then attack the city. If you survive, fortify and heal; don't waste your time moving out of their border. IMO, the odd of 18% is almost the same as 26%; therefore, if you wish to win by 3835BC, (before 3850BC) you need to attack the city whenever your strength get back up to at least 18%. Once the clock reach 3850BC, you have no choice but to attack the last archer with whatever strength you get.

 

[godotnut]

I don't know about any strategy guide, I'm talking about the exploit Moonsinger explained (above).

Oh, gotcha Wastin. Well, the short Quecha rush isn't necessary, nor do I think it's necessarily the fastest method. I finished much faster under these exact same settings using an all peaceful route with Liz (though this was Beta HOF).

The Quecha strategy isn't necessarily the best way here. It just happens to be the way I played last.

Your strategy isn't peaceful anymore IIRC.

Well, my last game wasn't, not entirely anyway, that's true Kalleyao. I took out one opponent with Quecha. The remaining 95% of the game was totally peaceful, so overall, it's still a pretty peaceful strategy. Again though, Quecha is only one route.

But even though the previous email was based on a misunderstanding, I still disagree about Quecha. They're not an exploit, they're a UU that excels at the highest levels. I don't see how the AI's behavior with Quecha is that much more stupid than they ever are defending. You can achieve equally predictable outcomes with Prats, for example.

Perhaps they are overpowered in some situations, but they're not an exploit. Using them involves a loss--that is, you have to focus totally on building them, and if your rush doesn't work, you're screwed. Even if your rush does work, you piss off the other AI--another drawback.

To address the problem WastinTime describes with Quecha, you would have to eliminate them as a UU or develop a much more sophisticated AI intelligence. We all agree that smarter AI would be a good thing, but I have a feeling it's easier said than done. The gamemakers have an easier solution. Quecha have been nerfed in Warlords. Huyana will no longer have the aggressive trait.

 

[Shadowsong]

people will desperately try to get 2 techs from huts..... Its no longer a matter of skill in the duel conquest tabvle since everyone knows how to play this game since Shadowsong revealed his strategy

I will not try this, I am done with Duel Conquest games .

(Maybe he should kept it secret )

I am happy to bring more competition to the HoF .

Since I have a feeling that Shadowsong probably won't go there, I figure if I got lucky, I will be #1 for awhile.

(How did you know?) Well, you are right . I will not play this one, no worries .

That took me a long time.

That was the reason why I skipped it.

One quechua needs to take out 3 archers. You can use the worker trick to lure one archer out in the open, then attack the city.

With the worker lure you only need to attack 2 archers, which is much easier than 3.

 

[Moonsinger]

(How did you know?) Well, you are right . I will not play this one, no worries .

Base on your track record, you tend to go with something quick and easy. You also tend to go with the tic-tac-toe format. Just a little bits of deductive reasoning, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out your next target.

I also predict that you won't try to beat godotnut. My guess is that it will require a lot of works because you can't skip the Ancient on this one.

I also predict that my current #1 domination on standard will have a very short life. Well, that domination was actually a culture game that went wrong. I had all 7 religions and yet I couldn't manage a culture win. Hopefully, this will prove to WastinTime that Quechua rush may not work in a culture game.

Anyway, my overall prediction is godotnut is going to win this Gauntlet.

 

[Kalleyao]

Well, my last game wasn't, not entirely anyway, that's true Kalleyao. I took out one opponent with Quecha. The remaining 95% of the game was totally peaceful, so overall, it's still a pretty peaceful strategy. Again though, Quecha is only one route.

But even though the previous email was based on a misunderstanding, I still disagree about Quecha. They're not an exploit, they're a UU that excels at the highest levels. I don't see how the AI's behavior with Quecha is that much more stupid than they ever are defending. You can achieve equally predictable outcomes with Prats, for example.

Perhaps they are overpowered in some situations, but they're not an exploit. Using them involves a loss--that is, you have to focus totally on building them, and if your rush doesn't work, you're screwed. Even if your rush does work, you piss off the other AI--another drawback.

I agree Quecha isn't an exploit but I think it's an above average-luck dependent strategy. Attack with Praets have much higher % of win.

Huyana will no longer have the aggressive trait.

But you can still submit vanilla.

I will not try this, I am done with Duel Conquest games .

Arent you done with the whole Deity chart for awhile.

 

[Kalleyao]

Actually, the odd is much better than you think. Unless your target date is 3835 BC, you would usually have more than 80% chance against archer. In most case, just hide in the forests and wait for them to attack you. I would say you have at least 99% chance for survival.

My target is 3835 BC.

 

[godotnut]

(How did you know?) Well, you are right . I will not play this one, no worries .

@Shadowsong:

But I will be coming after that Deity Duel cultural game sometime, ya know

@ Moonsinger:

I'll take a look at that save file later tonight if you still want me to check it out.

---

Luck to all. I think you folks have just been having bad luck. Deity cultural isn't quite as hard as y'all make it sound, imho.

 

[godotnut]

@Moonsinger:

So I took a look at your save file, and, as it turns out, I can tell you what you're doing wrong.

First of all, you're right about this game: you're screwed. No chance you will win before the AI launches the ship, even if they don't attack. So chalk this one up.

Here's the problem: you are playing on continents and you either took out all the AI on your landmass, or you started alone. Either approach is a recipe for disaster. Your problem is religions, obviously. You need them to spread to you. So here's what you do:

Play on a pangea map.

Constantly maintain open borders if at all possible with the AI. Build a network of roads. Wait.

80% of the time or so, you get enough religions to win. The bare minimum is three. 4-6 is better. You cannot beat the AI to the spaceship unless you build multiple major religious buildings (cathedrals, mandirs, etc.) as quickly as possible in your cultural cities.

That's the goal: build -- or, just as often, buy -- every possible major religious building as quicky as possible while maintaining the peace.

Did I mention that I think you should play on a pangea map?

I understand the advantages of continents. But having religions spread is absolutely essential, so to maximize your odds, it either needs to be pangea or some large landmass that you share with someone who can provide religions.

The most religions I've ever been able to found myself and still expand fast enough is one.

 

[Moonsinger]

@godotnut,

Thanks for looking over my games and for the good advice. I will try again using some of your methods next month. In the mean time, I have been playing for the short game on Tiny Conquest. So far, no luck yet.

 

[The-Hawk]

After a couple of months focused on GOTM and SGOTM (and holiday), I've decided to spend some time on HOF. Even though it is over half over, I decided to join this gauntlet. Better late than never.

After a couple of aborted attempts, I've got a decent game going. Playing Huayna, got six cities up (three from Mao, who is no longer with us ). Two pieces of bad news, I only had three religions spread to me, and I do not have a great GP city. My whole map is too health poor, at its peak, I am only generating 57 GPP per turn.

I finished all six cathedral (whatever you call the 50% culture buildings) sometime in the early 1300's, before all of my cottages had fully matured. Maybe my culture per turn will climb enough once they are all towns, but at this point, it seems impossible for me to reach 150K before a launch.

So, my question for godonut and all the other culture pros... what is the trade off for game speed? I played marathon because I planned to warmonger early. However, 150K really seems difficult, it takes forever for the cottages to grow to towns and GP's require too many points. Is it better to play Epic or Normal? I really don't know all the differences between the speeds, I don't know all of the tradeoffs. Along with everything taking longer, is the calendar duration also stretched out? I.e. more turns between 4000 BC and 1600 AD than in a faster speed?

thanks in advance

 

[WastinTime]

After learning a few things in Minor G 5, I had to try them out on Diety.

1463 AD !!

I had some really lucky things happen during the game, but I also was trying out some new ideas. Some of them will sound crazy when you hear them. Forget everything you've been told about fast cultural. Here are a few statistics -- many that aren't "normal".

Played Liz -- OK, that's normal

I had no marble. I discovered Hinduism (a marble religion, so not good)

I built one wonder. (Notre Dame, cus I had stone and the timing was right)
No, I did not build the Pyramids. My only goal at the beginning of the game was to grab the best locations. Even with stone (2nd city), I could not get the Pyramids.

I built one National Wonder, Hermitage.

I founded 2 religions (Hind, Conf).
I had only 3 religions for most of the game and built only 5 cathedrals.
A late buddhism hit and I built 2 more late game cathedrals.

I only built 6 cities (which is why I could only do max 6 cathedrals initially. I couldn't afford to build the 2nd Hindu one due to lack of marble.
I normally have a tight grouping of cities, but I saw such a sweet location for #2 I had to grab it, probably 10 tiles away.

I only built 2 Libraries.

I made one Great Scientist first, then 11 Great Artists.

I built 3 warriors. No other military. Some cities were empty until culture flipping gave me some free units. No war/aggression obviously.

My research path was very different (for me anyway). I usually get Alphabet early to fill in the techs with trading. I figured on Diety, they'd get it and I'd just trade for it. I couldn't believe it wasn't discovered until 620 BC, and then they wouldn't trade it. Eventually, everyone but me had it so I could trade with anyone, but I didn't even want Alphabet then. This had to hurt me because I skipped everything waiting for trades. No Animal Husbandry, No Bronzeworking, Ironworking. I had 2 gems in jungles that I couldn't clear. My workers had almost nothing to do because they couldn't touch forest tiles either. This is 240 turns into the game! Seems like crazy strategy huh? wasting those great tiles like cows, horses, gems. I couldn't even make more cottages because I couldn't clear them. However, since I skipped almost everything I could, I stopped research at 100 AD with Liberalism (free Nationalism). I didn't go for Printing Press. I waited a very long time and finally traded for it.

Here's a lucky moment...
A size 8 city flipped and it had the National Epic. That city made 2 Great Artists. So it probably accounted for one extra GA in the game that I wouldn't normally have gotten.

I was a bit fortunate also to have my Capitol go legendary and the other two cities both go on the next turn. (A lot of planning here, but still a bit of luck required.)

Maybe all my odd strategies are really no good and the only reason I did so well is because I played on Marathon. I think most of you are trying on Epic, true? Anyone else play Marathon?
1550 AD is turn 700 of 1200 on Marathon (way past halfway)
1550 AD is turn 320 of 660 on Epic (not even half)
I wish this weren't true. It seems like every time we get a "choice" to play any speed, Marathon is always better. Even in this game where I didn't travel across the map.

I didn't expect to finish so early. I just grabbed a great map that I generated way back in the beginning of this. I'm pretty sure I played on it before, so I won't be submitting this score. I should be able to beat it some day, but unfortunately, I'm going to be on vacation for the remainder of this Gauntlet.

I'll check the thread occasionally to see if anyone breaks 1400. I think the person who can get the Pyramids and still have 3 great city locations can do that.