G-Major 29

[unclethrill]

Another one down. Got mids late (~200AD). Beelined for Liberalism instead of music. Lincoln got lib 10 turns before me (425 AD). Gilgamesh completed TSC same turn so I quit.

Next ...

 

[Mesix]

My PA would have been ready on turn 192 aince I formed a DP on 132. My latests round of map finder starts are without Ghandi. I had taken him out and then put him back when I added the PA option. What better than to get Ghandi as the PA partner? After this last game I am sour on Ghandi.

New opponents: Darius, Hatty, Mansa Musa, and Washington.

I got a couple of good German beers with my dinner, so I am ready to try again...and again...and again!

What's that?...my wife wants to watch a movie since I'm off work tonight?...Doesn't she understand that I only have a few more days to finish this Gauntlet?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Why not just trade for Philo? You don't get the religion. I think bulbing Philo is a waste, I'd put one in Education before doing that.

If the AI that researches Philosophy first has already founded another Religion and probably converted to it, the Religion associated with Philosophy is unlikely to spread at all. In such a situation, bulbing Philosophy to get the associated Religion means an extra pair of Cathedrals can be built. This _may_ be well worth the second GS versus an extra GA. It also shaves a few turns off getting Liberalism that would compensate a little for the missing GA.

On the other hand, losing an early GA that can be settled for 6-7K of accumulated Culture may not be worth the second GS bulbing Philosophy. Some base line calculations would need to be made to be sure whether a second GS or early GA would (help) generate the most Culture faster.

Anyway, I always go just 1 GS for early Academy (don't forget it's 4 culture...should double to 8, but that's a bug I think). I get to Lib around turn 120. It's rare the AI can beat that.

If you want the best date, this is the correct strategy, but I think you will need at least three Religions and three pairs of early Cathedrals to make it work out. If you get enough Religions, you may get a record setting win. If not, you may wish you had generated a second GS for Philosophy for an extra Religion.

However, near the end that final 1-2 GAs _may_ be of no use in winning even a single turn faster (in case all three cities need to be bombed to Legendary).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[unclethrill]

Still not sure how everybody but me can get Lib before the AI. I have never made it. I can get TSC most times if I beeline music but even if I beeline lib I still lose Every time.

Just lost another. Had a good start. Got TSC. only had 2 religions but would likely got a 3rd or 4th. 1010 religious victory for Lincoln. At least I was on the ballot this time not that it mattered.

Think I need new set of opponents. Lincoln seems to snatch the win almost as much as Ghandi did. Gilgamesh is just a pain and he spreads like wildfire.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

What tech path are you taking to chop a library around turn 26? If I beeline Alphabet I will get Writing at about this time followed by Alphabet between turn 41-46. Unfortunately, beelining Alphabet does not include a detour to tech Bronze Working (required for chopping). I generally trade for BW after getting Alphabet. Are you researching BW before Writing?

No, in two of my last three games I've gotten Bronze Working from a Hut. Obviously, one can't expect Bronze Working from a Hut.

Talking about crazy luck: In my current game, I got Bronze Working from a Hut on turn 4 and Iron Working on turn 23 from another Hut. There are two Copper tiles nearby at 8 and 9 tiles away, but no Iron yet. If Iron had appeared in my Cultural boundaries, I probably would have started building a stack of Swordsmen to conquer the "World".

Back on topic (earliest turn for GS):

The best that could be done is researching Bronze Working by t35 in about 9t after Writing on t26. That would mean that the Library would be delayed by 8t from t28 to t36 and thus the first GS would also be delayed 8t from t45 to t53.

In the analysis of the Academy, you are forgetting the produced by the Academy. It does not become useless when you crank the Culture slider because it produces 4 (doubled to 8 later) base . Assuming the same modifiers you detailed above (Cats, Herm, etc.), this could be up to 40 per turn.

Yes, I was referring only to the Research multiplying effect of the Academy. The Academy does generate 4 Cpt, but due to a bug it doesn't go to 8 Cpt after 1000 years. Has this bug been fixed?

If you are able to build the Pyramids (as I often do when there is Stone present) then your Artists also produce 4 each (assuming you are running Representation...is there any other Government Civic to run?). The Academy will give a boost to for all the specialists in that city which will allow you to tech Printing Press, Guilds, and Banking with the Research slider at 0%.

Yes, if one has Stone and nothing better to build, The Pyramids and Representation are good options for increasing the Research rate.

Yes, in my loss to Hatshsepsut's Cultural Victory, I built The Pyramids and was able to research all the Technologies you mentioned much quicker than expected at Research 00%.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Mesix]

I did it!!!

Finally!!!

1695 might not be the best time (might even be the slowest) and the game was not very elegant with a lot of "could've been better" situations, but it is a victory.

I forgot to save at 4000 BC. I submitted with the Map finder save file. Is this okay, or am I destined to have another rejection?

 

[Mesix]

Here is a run down of some of the stats from my game:

I had corn, gold, stone, and wine in my starting cross.

I moved my settler on the first turn to settle on a plains/hills tile.

My opponents were Darius, Hatty, Mansa Musa, and Washington.

Hatty became my PA at about turn 210 (give or take a few turns).

I went with Agr and AH on the way to Writing and traded for Wheel and Pottery later.

All four AI had Masonry and Polytheism, but wouldn't trade them so I had to detour from Asthetics to pick up these two techs.

I missed the Pyramids (with stone).
I missed the free GA from Music.
I missed the Sistine Chapel (but Hatty built it so I had the benefit in the late game).
I did not get a GS early to build an Academy.
I did not win the race to Liberalism...not even close.

I had four religions. All four cities had decenet food and commerce (making it difficult to choose where to put the Cathedrials). I was running 5 artists in my capitol, four in another city, and three in the other two. I generated 1 GS, 1 GE, and 11 GA.

I had four religions with Cats in two cities.
I built the Parthenon.
I built the Hanging Gardens.
I'm pretty sure that I had one more WW but I can't remember what it was.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I did it!!!

Finally!!!

1695 might not be the best time (might even be the slowest) and the game was not very elegant with a lot of "could've been better" situations, but it is a victory.

I forgot to save at 4000 BC. I submitted with the Map finder save file. Is this okay, or am I destined to have another rejection?

Congratulations Mesix! A round of beers for my friends here!


AD 1695 is definitely not last place. I'm 10th at AD 1715.

As long as you used the correct Map Finder file, it should be fine as your BC 4000 save, but I'm not certain about this since I usually do a manual save at the beginning of any game before doing anything else.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Mesix]

I usually save upon starting too. For some reason I forgot to this time. I guess I got used to losing...hahaha. I have a whole collection of initial saves in my directory with names like:

Try try again-BC-4000
Diety Futility-BC-4000
Another Diety Cultural Game-BC-4000

 

[Mesix]

My game has been accepted!

I am in 10th place out of 14.

I will officially be a Quatromaster on the July 10th Update as I am only missing a Major Gauntlet.

 

[Mesix]

Congratulations Mesix! A round of beers for my friends here!


AD 1695 is definitely not last place. I'm 10th at AD 1715.

As long as you used the correct Map Finder file, it should be fine as your BC 4000 save, but I'm not certain about this since I usually do a manual save at the beginning of any game before doing anything else.

Sun Tzu Wu

Thanks for the round.



Cheers mate.

 

[Pious_Pete]

Another consideration is early Great Artists should be settled in the Commerce City with the highest base Culture... Counting the Culture the settled GA accumulated prior to Liberalism, its total Culture could easily exceed 6000. Thus two settled GAs can produce about the same Culture as three bombed GAs. So I'd advise settling Great Artists at least through turn 115 (AD 0001) and maybe slightly longer with a break even cut off date of turn 200 - (4000 / 68) = 200 - 59 = 141 (AD 0620).

Thanks for that analysis. I´m surprised by how late you can settle artists and still be quids in. I haven´t been settling my early Artists up until now, but I shall seriously have a look at doing so in future.

 

[Pious_Pete]

:

After Writing, build a Library and hire 2 Scientists until a Great Scientist is generated and build an Academy in the Capital. This could reasonable occur as early as turn 55 (turn 26 Writing + 12 turns building Library + 17 turns of 2 Scientists). Perfect execution of this strategy will almost certainly complete Liberalism first. (Building the Library in 12t would require 9H; 2H could be from the capital's Plain Hill building site; the other 6H could be from two Gems/Gold/Silver/Regular mines. The Library could be built faster via maximum Hammer overflow from the previous build, for example a Granary.)

Getting a scientist by turn 55 is impressive. However, the "flaw" in what you write from my perspective is that in virtually all of my games there is a lag between when I build the library and when I can start running scientists. (Remember I am playing vanilla). I´ve mentioned this curiousity before, but no one seems to have picked up on this point. What is going on here? Am I doing anything wrong?

:
Since the Academy's usefulness drops with the switch from 100% Research to 100% Culture when Liberalism is completed around turn 115 (AD 0001), the Academy must be built very early or not at all. To get 50 turns effective use of the Academy, it must be completed by turn 65 (BC 1400).

Someone needs to analyze how many turns the Academy needs to be used to equal the value of bulbing Philosophy or Bulbing part of Education. Is 50 turns of 50% base Research in the Capital worth more than either of these bulbs in total Beakers generated?

Thats a good question. Has anyone got an answer for it?

 

[Pious_Pete]

My game has been accepted!

I am in 10th place out of 14.

I will officially be a Quatromaster on the July 10th Update as I am only missing a Major Gauntlet.

Well done on the win, and well done on becoming a Quatromaster.

 

[Pious_Pete]

I've made 2 attempts. My 2nd was 1330 AD.

You´ll need to try 17 times to get a really good time

 

[Pious_Pete]

Yesterday, as the powers that be forbad the playing of Civ, I surreptitiously left map finder running.

My rules were 2 food, 2 commerce, 1 PH, no jungle with Inland Sea, Low Seas. It ran for 14 hours, generated 1500 games, and saved ... none.

Overnight I changed the rule sets to 2 Food, 1 Commerce, 1 PH, or 1 Food, 2 Commerce, 1PH. (N.B. No restrictions on jungle, same map type). It ran for around 7 hours, generated around 800 games and saved 5. However, on none of these could I settle on the plains hill and get the 3 key resources. (In fact, it was only possible to get all three resources regardless of the plains hill on one of the maps).

Could someone give me some tips on what rule sets I should be using?

 

[Pious_Pete]

However, the "flaw" in what you write from my perspective is that in virtually all of my games there is a lag between when I build the library and when I can start running scientists. (Remember I am playing vanilla). I´ve mentioned this curiousity before, but no one seems to have picked up on this point. What is going on here? Am I doing anything wrong?

Sorry to sound like a broken record; but as to prove a point, I just started a new game where this very thing happened. I was a bit slow to Alpha (1760), but whipped a library a couple of turns later. I was unable to run scientists until turn 825 BC (a good 600 years after you recommend that the Academy should be built!)

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Yesterday, as the powers that be forbad the playing of Civ, I surreptitiously left map finder running.

My rules were 2 food, 2 commerce, 1 PH, no jungle with Inland Sea, Low Seas. It ran for 14 hours, generated 1500 games, and saved ... none.

Overnight I changed the rule sets to 2 Food, 1 Commerce, 1 PH, or 1 Food, 2 Commerce, 1PH. (N.B. No restrictions on jungle, same map type). It ran for around 7 hours, generated around 800 games and saved 5. However, on none of these could I settle on the plains hill and get the 3 key resources. (In fact, it was only possible to get all three resources regardless of the plains hill on one of the maps).

Could someone give me some tips on what rule sets I should be using?

What range did you set? You should plan to move your Settler at least 1 tile if not in an ideal position, thus range 2 would miss some resources in your fat cross. I used to set range to 999, just to not miss anything. Setting range greater than 2 also means that occasionally not all resources reported will fit under a single fat cross.

The requirement for Plains Hills can be tough to meet in combination with the rather rare "2 Food and 2 Early Commerce" requirement. This would have been nearly impossible if you had used Settler on Plains Hill rather than just Plain Hill.

I have noticed that Inland Sea doesn't provide very many maps with 2 Food and 2 Early Commerce. The 2 Food and 1 Early Commerce may be the best that can be reasonably found on an Inland Sea map. This is part of the reason why I believe that Inland Sea is not necessarily the best for this gauntlet.

BTW, I run Map Finder with a rule that saves every map and I sort through them later. Saving all maps allows all strategies to be considered, since some strategies will have better synergies with specific starting resources and tiles. However, sorting through them later can be time consuming, so I'm considering the addition of some simple restrictions like just "1 Early Commerce", since that would probably be an absolute requirement for this gauntlet for any reasonable strategy.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Sorry to sound like a broken record; but as to prove a point, I just started a new game where this very thing happened. I was a bit slow to Alpha (1760), but whipped a library a couple of turns later. I was unable to run scientists until turn 825 BC (a good 600 years after you recommend that the Academy should be built!)

I did change the strategy from whipping the Library to building it, since it was unrealistic to research Bronze Working and beeline Alphabet in time to use Slavery or chopping to build the Library starting at t26 (BC 2960). In any case, chopping the Library would be better than whipping, since that should allow at least one Citizen free to be hired as a Scientist for 17 turns.

With plentiful food, one could even hire two Scientists instead one and thus generate the Great Scientist in 9 turns rather than 17 turns. Thus, the Great Scientist could build the Academy as early as turn 47 rather than turn 55!

The more food you have the better this all works out, especially when using whipping. The best food resources (irrigated Corn, Pig or even Fish) should be used when possible.

In my current game, I generated my first Great Scientist on turn 59. I could have done it much earlier, but my Settler generation would have suffered even more than it already has.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

So I'd advise settling Great Artists at least through turn 115 (AD 0001) and maybe slightly longer with a break even cut off date of turn 200 - (4000 / 68) = 200 - 59 = 141 (AD 0620).

Thanks for that analysis. I´m surprised by how late you can settle artists and still be quids in. I haven´t been settling my early Artists up until now, but I shall seriously have a look at doing so in future.

I was also surprised by how late a Great Artist could be settled without net Culture loss versus bombing the GA.

Note that the analysis assumes that The Sistine Chapel and at least 4 Cathedrals are built in the major Commerce City by the time Liberalism is completed and Hermitage is built shortly thereafter. This is what allows each Great Artist settled there to generate 70 Cpt (500% * 14 Cpt where 500% = 100% base + 100% Free Speech + 200% Cathedrals + 100% Hermitage). Note that a rate of 68 Cpt is used to account for the about 12 turns it may take to build Hermitage after the Liberalism win and selection of Nationalism.

Caution: Do not settle too many GAs into the primary Commerce City, otherwise when it goes Legendary, there may not be enough saved GAs to bomb the other two Culture Cities to Legendary on the same turn or shortly thereafter.

Sun Tzu Wu