G-Major 70

I'll give this a go next, forgot that non-ancient starts still count for QM, so it'll be Gandhi for me too.

Ramesses could give Gandhi a run for this money though? Get GP points from wonders?
 
I doubt anyone can compete w/ Gandhi. There are lots of civics changes. Wonders are too big to build and come too late. Maybe if this was a future start game.
 
Well Ramesses is spiritual too.

I wonder if the culture wonders are cheaper in hammers than 3 temples + a cathedral. Of course you have to tech then.

EDIT: But missionary building has to be taken into account too.

Did you just manage to buy Sushi resources off the AI?
 
Oops, right, he's not Philo. I don't see how you can compete without Philo.

I grabbed a couple more sushi with my last few settlers I built, but mostly traded with the AI. I think I had ~20-25 sushi. 30+ at the very end
 
WT: I am also wondering how you managed to get enough sushi resources without building Broadway/RocknRoll/Hollywood for trades. Other than that, the earlier switch to full culture makes sense if you can pop enough GA.

I finished 1973 with Gandhi, but I built all three of those, plus eiffel and Statue of liberty. I used GE to rush 4 of them, and bombed 10 GA. Only one of my cities was really cottageable though.
 
You can always trade gold if you run out of other resources to trade.
Eiffel is probably worth it, but that is a lot of research. Too bad this isn't on Deity so the AI would tech faster and you could trade your way easier.
 
Well first attempt failed, what a silly game ;) Micro management practice though.

I went random opponents, which is stoopid. Isabella was next door, but that wasn't so bad as Gandhi since her religion spread to me so I could adopt it and she was super-friendly.

Montezuma wasn't so friendly though. He DoW'd me after my give in to his demands ceasefire ended, at first he only sent destroyers, I thought I might get away with it (about 60 turns to win, all I needed was a ceasefire). Eventually he sent a transport with artillery and infantry. Isabella wouldn't help out :(

I can't see how you got 1200 cpt, I was on 450 odd at 100% culture.

I had a cash crisis and had to switch to slavery to whip courthouses, but that left me with an extra GM (ok, trade mission for running 100% culture a bit longer) and a GP (pretty bad, 7.5 gpt, maybe should have used him for a golden age).

My starting spot was duff, had to move settler for 2 turns to get a capital worth settling. I wont bother unless I see 3 food straight away next time.

I had 2 GS early, 1st was for an academy second I bulbed Sci Meth to completion, which was a mistake, should have built a monastery first to spend more time not in Org Rel.

I used serfdom at the start which I think was a mistake should have whipped another fast worker I think.

Settlers were taking like 42 turns to build :(

2nd city was awful, would have had to bomb it at leasxt 8 or 9 times, 6 forests and silk. 3rd city was an awesome GP farm but wasn't as good as the capital after I built the National Park there. I should have built the Nat Park in the duff 2nd city since it had 6 forests.
 
My capital had corn - gold - gold - gems and 15 forests. Nice National Park. I think I had the park up on turn 43 and that was without lightbulbing SciMeth. I did no bulbing that game.

Capital was ~750 cpt. The other 2 were 400 cpt by the end. You're obviously referring to TheHawk's game which had 1200 cpt.
 
Yeah, the 2nd GS wasn't a planned birth ;) Was trying for a GM really.

I take it your capital was inland then?

I was on a France/Spain looking peninsula with forests and hills in the way to the mainland which slowed my settlers down.

After 2 turns moving my capital had corn, pigs, silver, horse and clams though, which was pretty good. 4 forests and more spread after building forest preserves.

GP farm had 5 floodplains and 2 grassland, with biology it was mega. All it had was iron though.
 
I've managed a 1983 win, also with Ghandi.
I played similar to WT, only teched to Medicine and founded Sushi, only much slower. It's nice that under Representation and all the Artists I was running I still had decent research.

I wonder if it could be quicker by starting with 1 GScientist for bulbing SciMeth, 1 GEngineer for rushing National Park (mine was such a slow build, amongst jungle...) and then a GMerchant for Sid's.

Or, what if one went 100% culture from the very start, doing all research through Representation specialists. Maybe start off with 100% gold while expanding out to 6 cities and growing the population, possibly even run Universal Suffrage for the start to rush buy everything?
 
Elizabeth:


Map
Big & small; massive continents (for better rivers) and tiny islands (for more seafood)

Opponents
Gandhi, Mansa Musa, Wang Kong, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Churchill
Peace is good.
Roosevelt made a defensive pact with me early on. Whoo hoo!


Opening civics
Representation, Bureacracy, Emancipation, Mercantilism, Pacifism

At least 2 settlers are wandering around during this period anyway, so the anarchy doesn't cost much.


Cities
Capital - situated in reach of 9 forest tiles, with good river coverage; will be the National Park place.
Coastal city - a poor location, overall, but necessary for ocean access. Two crab in radius.
Flood Plain Villa - No resources. One riverside grass, 2 worthless desert, 3 desert hills, 3 other hills, and the rest flood plains.


Tech Path
Sci Method - Biology - Medicine (then crank up the :culture: slider)


Build Plan

Start with 5 or 6 workers before anything else.

Monastery in holy city (flood plain villa); then theatre; had to follow with grocer because health was so bad; then missionary (only needed 1), temple, courthouse

Theatre, then Hermitage in capital; pause and add more workers after some growth; finish Hermi, then build a Settler to claim some seafood

Coastal city built theatre, then work boats, galleon, then started on Stock Exchange (Bank) and Grocer for corporate HQ


Cottages everywhere!

IMHO, there's no need for dedicated GP farm. Specialization is kinda moot-- all three starter cities are specializing in culture, and whatever setup produces the most culture points (be it cottages or gp farming) should be used everywhere. You can't build the National Epic. With Philosophical + Pacifism, all cities will be +200% and all should produce a fair number of artists.


Early GP:
Until the theatres are up, I ran engineers and merchants. One Great Merchant will be needed for Sushi, and the Great Engineer was used to build the Statue of Liberty.


Early developments

Thanks to heavy cottaging, I reached medicine in 1870 (turn 305, or turn 55 from the actual start).
The National Park was finished several turns before Medicine, and thus generated a non-artist GP. But that's okay. When I got to medicine, I used him for a golden age and changed civics as follows:

Representation, Free Speech, Caste System, Environmentalism, Pacifism



The "combination" that makes Elizabeth work here is Environmentalism. I grew my cities as big as possible, even letting them get 3 or 4 :yuck: prior to medicine, to take advantage of the financial trait. And although Enviro makes the corporation costs higher, it pays that back with a +2 :commerce: windmill and forest preserve bonuses (taking them to the "threshhold" for financial).

With all that, the capital reached legendary without bombing a single artist (most were used in the subpar coastal city).


Trading
I actually ran most of the game at 100% :culture:. Staying in Representation cost me the hammer bonus that I might have got for towns, but there were enough artist-specialist-generated beakers to keep me in the tech lead (or at least parity) for a long time. I traded for combustion (which added three needed :health: to the flood plain city with Public Transportation), Steam Power (it came early enough that I made levees useful in two cities), electricity (+ commerce on the windmills; not a big deal, but everything helps), and some junk that I traded back around to other civs for more gold.

I also teched myself to Mass Media (after trading for Radio) and built one broadcast tower.


Other cities
I built two out on islands to add a total of 6 seafood. Sushi wasn't spectacular, about 10 resources most of the game and maybe 12-13 near the end.

I flipped, er... 4 cities, I think. Kept three, added some more temples (for second shrine), then built wealth. Plenty of wealth, really.


Finish

Blast and curses! I clicked on the "Creative Constructions" icon when I meant to do a culture bomb (and no, it wasn't the least bit useful; I would have been one turn out, and I only had one resource). If not for that boneheaded move, I'd've finished in 1957 or 1958.

As it was, I finished in 1960. So, yeah, Elizabeth can work. :)
 
Some thoughts before I started my second attempt...

I'm thinking of a game where I only have 3 cities. Assume I am Elizabeth. (The 'expected' numbers below aren't exact, I kind of adjusted them as I was playing)

Great People
My theory is it requires 36 Great People to fully bomb 3 cities to legendary. Obviously that's not going to work, so tone it down to two cities, and it requires only 24 bombs. This implies that 1 city should get culture by other means. Therefore, I'm thinking one (not necessarily the capital, but would make sense) will be cottaged, the other two farmed.

Now, assuming the farm cities can produce 6000 :culture: normally, then I only need 22 GArtists. This costs a total of 26720 :gp: (if I've done my maths right - 1st 10 @ 80*N :gp: each, 2nd 10 @ 160*N :gp: each, last 2 @ 240*N :gp: each). Assuming I'm always Pacifist and Philosophical, that requires 26720/3 = 8907 raw :gp:, or 8907/3 = 2649 artist turns.

Assume I'm targeting a T120 (ambitious!) finish, that's an average of ~20 artists per turn. Between two cities, that's 10 per city. Considering 20 artists in the NP city isn't difficult towards the end, and another city could produce a hopefully similar amount... perhaps it's possible??

National Park City
With Biology comes National Park, as well as better farms. In terms of producing specialists, 1 grass farm with 4 food can support 1 specialist, as can 1 forest with a preserve. Happiness and Health aren't issues, so they are pretty much equivalent. SO, it's not really essential to preserve all the jungles like I have been doing. It also means that it is probably good value to chop forests to build the National Park. With Mercantilism and a food resource or two this city could support ~23 artists.

Targetting Biology by turn 50, and ~5 turns to build/chop the park leaves 65 turns. 65*23 = 1495 artist turns. Assuming for the first 50 turns it averaged about 3 artists per turn that's a total of 1645. That's also worth 13,200 :culture:, so it might only need 9 bombs.

Second Farm City
This city needs only 1004 artist turns. With a couple of food resources and some farms a size 18 city could easily support ~13 artists. Do that from turn ~40 and it is there. It might use 10 or 11 bombs. Since this city has not much else to do, it would make sense that it is the missionary city, so try to found it 2nd and become holy city.

Cottage City
This leaves the cottaged city. It needs all 50,000 culture from commerce or buildings. Obviously it will have the hermitage and at least 1 cathedral, and free speech for +250%. So that's 14285 raw :culture:. Average over 120 turns is ~120. Not so likely, but, lets say by turn 40 I've gone 100% culture, am working 20 hamlets, and half of them are riverside, and I am financial then that's 70 per turn right there. By turn 46 they are villages (with PP bonus), so now 110 per turn. By turn 78 they are towns (free speech bonus) that's 170 per turn. 70*16+32*110+32*170 = 10080. The palace is worth 2*100+8*80 = 840, a religion, temple, theatre, monastery, library and university (cheap for philo leader) another ~80*12=960. Trade routes worth ~80*4 = 320... err.. I'm running out of sources here and I've only made ~12,200. Can I throw in 2 bombs? We'll see.

Civics
I think the first civic choices are Representation, Free Speech, Caste System, Mercantilism and Pacifism. But, at the start I'm tempted to use Universal Suffrage to rush out some workers, missionaries and other buildings. Since I can changes 3 civics for only 1 turn, what else might be useful? Emancipation for a short time would be nice to more quickly grow the cottages. Without Caste System suggests the first builds in the other cities should be theatres so they can quickly switch to working artists. There is a risk of producing a non-artist here, eg GE or GM, but it's not like these are a total waste, the GE could rush something useful like the NP, and the GM could be saved to found Sid's Sushi. In fact, up to now I haven't even considered Sid's Sushi. Is it worth it?

Sid's Sushi
With only 3 cities, gathering Sid's resources might be difficult. Might have 4 or 5 sources in local area, which only add 8-10 :culture: and 3-4:food:. Is that worth the cost of the GM and teching to Medicine?
Assume you found Sid's on turn 80. Then that's roughly 40 turns worth of 10 :culture:, so 400 raw. In the cottage city (place to found it +2:culture: per turn for the wonder itself = 2*40*3.5=280) that's 400*3.5 = 1400, in the others that is 400*2 = 800. Total between the 3 cities of 3000. But wait, there's more! The 4 food is worth at least 2 artist specialists per city, so more :gp: and more :culture:. In the cottage city it could be more if that food allows you to work all cottages if you aren't already. So all up, I think it's a wise move.
Also, teching medicine is good trade bait to get Electricity, which boosts all your windmills :commerce:.

Ok, onto the actual game
The biggest problem I had of course was meeting the numbers I said I would :)
In the end I managed 1968 = T138. 21 GArtists produced + 1 GM. 3 bombed in the capital. 7 Sid's resources producing 14 :culture:2:food:.
My capital wasn't ideal - only 10 riverside tiles, but too many hills and not enough food resources, so took a long time to work all the cottages. I probably should have built some temporary farms at the start to grow it quicker.
The civics gambit worked well I think - I didn't produce any unwanted great people from lack of caste system, and the cash rushing was nice to quickly get workers. In fact, when I started I didn't plan on Sushi, but in hindsight it wouldn't be a big risk to run a merchant for a short time.
Biology wasn't discovered until T56, with National Park built 4 turns later. Not too far off I guess.
Sid's Sushi was founded on T84, so that's on track.
It took a very long time to get to 100% culture, and to build the Hermitage/Cathedral. Perhaps if the capital had more forests to chop.
I only had one religion the whole game, which was founded in my NP city. This city also wasn't ideally green. Only had 20 specialists for most of the game.
What would have made a big difference I think would be 1 extra support city, specced for production. Building wealth here would have helped a lot.
I think I'll try it again and see if I can do better than T120.
 
Assume I am Elizabeth...

Aha, another solid finish for Liz. Good analysis.

Our games were similar, I think. The biggest difference was that I built the Hermitage in the National Park city, figuring the +100% :culture: should apply to all of those artist specialists. I also built cottages in that city, too. However, in my game, the "Cottage City" had a lot of flood plains, which meant that it, too, would run a fair amount of specialists, and I didn't want the GP points there going to waste. If that makes any sense.

In the end, I think the strategies came pretty close to equal, but you lost a few turns because your GP farm included jungles. Mine was all forest, and the forest preserve tiles are actually workable (+1 :hammers: instead of -1 :food:).

Cheers,
Jason
 
Since that game I've tried again using Elizabeth and Mansa Musa. I considered Mansa for the spiritual/financial but lacking philo didn't help.
In the end I still couldn't do better than 1968 - in fact the Mansa game was exactly 1968!
I also reasoned that my assumption of pretty much fully bulbing 2 cities is silly - way too many great people required.

My new theory: NB, theory

Support cities are very important for keeping the slider at 100% culture. So if I assume from the beginning I will have 6 cities: 3 cottaged legendary, 1 NP = GP Farm, 2 wealth builders.

There's room for 2 cathedrals, and playing a pangea map makes it quite likely that a 2nd religion would appear, so 4 cathedrals and a Hermitage to go around.
City #1 gets Hermitage + 2 cathedrals, so +300%. City #2 gets 2 cathedrals, so +200%. City #3 only +100% from free speech. Run Emancipation to grow the cottages and it takes only 28 turns for a town.

Divide the game into 2 phases:
Turns 0 - ~70 Civics: Emancipation, Universal Suffrage, Bureaucracy, Mercantilism, Organised Religion.

Emancipation to grow the cottages.
Universal Suffrage to quickly rush workers, missionaries, theatres, settlers, whatever - we're financial after all, so 3:gold: is basically equivalent to 1:hammers: for normal builds, and much easier to come by since the cities will likely be working cottages AND the bureau bonus multiplies them BEFORE going through the free market.
Bureaucracy since this phase is all about building and expanding.
Mercantilism because at this stage it is better than Free Market and with a theatre equates to a free artist.
Organised Religion - seems inferior to Pacifism, but at the early stage it is more about expansion/development that about GP production. And once Scientific Method comes along it's the only way to spread the likely 2nd religion.

First 3 cities should be as green and riverside as possible for cottaged legendary cities.
First builds in each city are a theatre, rushed ASAP so that the free specialist can become an artist. Run a merchant in the short term just so that the small chance of a non-artist will at least be uesful to found Sid's Sushi.
Then expand to 6 cities like mad. Spread religions, build temples, cathedrals and hermitage.
At some point change slider from 0% research to close to 100%, and with fairly well developed cities SciMethod, Biology and Medicine should come quite quickly. Hopefully before turn 70.
If happiness problems arise (remember, not using Representation) use the culture slider.

Turns ~70 - 120 Civics: Universal Suffrage, Free Speech, Caste System, Environmentalism, Pacifism.

Now in full culture generating / GP Farming mode.

Free Speech, Caste System and Pacifism are obvious. Environmentalism makes hills useful commerce tiles and the extra health and trade routes will work better for the legendary cities than the lost free specialist from mercantilism.

Hopefully by turn 70 or so Medicine is learned, Sid's Sushi is founded giving 14+ :culture:, each city has ~18+ towns/windmills and assorted cultural buildings like theatre, library, temples - then it's not unreasonable to produce 180 raw :culture: per turn.
For the next 50 turns that is 36,000 in city #1, 27,000 in city #2 and 18,000 in city #3.
Also properly begin the NP/GPFarm running ~23 artists. Bombs required is about 2,6,7 = 15 total. Plus the GM means 16 great people at a total cost of 12560 :gp:. = 1023 artist turns. Is that doable?
 
I prefer to bomb a GS for very early SciMeth, Bio around t37, NatPark around t43, Sushi turn 53 or 54. Wouldn't you say that the one GS used to bulb is worth it?
 
I prefer to bomb a GS for very early SciMeth, Bio around t37, NatPark around t43, Sushi turn 53 or 54. Wouldn't you say that the one GS used to bulb is worth it?
Yes possibly. I guess it comes down to how quickly you want to grow the cottages vs how many GP you'll get.
I've found that if you have the National Park ready then you'll really want to be in Caste System or your great people coming out of it are pretty random. But an earlier switch to Caste System means you'll be missing out on quickly growing the cottages under Emancipation. :dunno:

Another idea I'm toying with is what WT suggested earlier "Grow really big with a grenadier army". Maybe not 'really' big, but how about a big_and_small map where you kill your nearest two neighbours ASAP. You'll likely have 9 cities straight away (maybe not optimal locations, but at least the capitals should be good) and 3 religions, for what is likely a much lower cost than building exorbitantly priced settlers.

Play as Elizabeth again, make your first 3 builds Redcoats, rush bought/chopped ASAP under Universal Suffrage and you'll have an army of 6+ redcoats. Or just use grenadiers which are slightly cheaper I guess and have a better bonus vs the rifles you'll be facing. Should be enough for one immediate neighbour at least, I *think*. I haven't tried it, but I'd like to next.
 
Ok, I played pretty much as my post #34. Managed to win in 1954 (turn 124).

It was a temperate pangea map using Elizabeth. Opponents were the typically peaceful Frederick, Lincoln, Hatshepsut, Asoka, Ghandi and Washington. Sushi was quite good in this game, pulling in 32 :culture: by the end. I produced 1 GM and 16 artists, bombed something like 1-6-9.

I'm pretty happy with that, so I'll probably stop trying now :)
 
What!? That's not what you said you did in your game. You've been holding out on us!

Yea, I planned to bulb, but that first game had gold-gold-gems in the capital, so I went with academy. I still got sushi on turn 54. Bulbing would have been better.

Any new attempts use the bulb.
 
I've been a little tied up and haven't been able to participate much in this one :(. Now I'm about to leave on holiday for a week. However, I wanted to say how impressed I am with the discussion. Given the non-standard game conditions, it is good to see. Thanks to the folks who are sharing their ideas!

:hmm: I don't actually leave until tomorrow and I am off today... maybe I can get one in after all :).
 
Top Bottom