G-Major 94

[The-Hawk]

I have a decent attempt going. I've decided to start conservative just to get a feel and get a game posted. I.e. normal rex, no rushes, build an economy. Plan is to take the far continent with cannon and rifles. I will win the game for sure, but it will be a very slow time.

I did not try to influence starting positions of AI's (didn't know we could do so), so Shaka awaits on the far continent. SB was a real pain... his LB's were a real problem. Rags rolled over pretty easy to a mace/treb attack.

AgedOne, one suggestion... I noticed in one of your caps you improved two golds, but there is an unimproved pig tile. Almost without exception, I improve food tiles first. Rex is all about growth and whipping.

 

[Conquistador 63]

Almost 2 years have passed since my last HoF submission (only playing GOTM lately). Hopefully I'll find the time to finish and submit the game I started with these fun settings.

No mapfinder installed, so just regenerated a handful of maps. IIRC I chose snaky continents/high seas. Pretty mediocre start, 3 seafood, sheep and stone in BFC. Shared a small landmass with Pacal. Ragnar, WK and Hammy are accessible by galley. I'm close to 1000AD, Pacal and WK dead, pleased Raggy never got past 3 cities. Met everyone else with caravels, got up to Feud/Philo from trades. I will get Astro from Lib in a couple turns, and OxU in like 5 to 10 turns...not sure it will help much, but with cheap Uni's, OR and stone...

After that, will probably tech Engineering/Gunpowder (maybe Chem/Steel) and go razing coastal cities everywhere hoping for quick capitulations. Aiming for a 1500-1600AD victory. I captured the Mids from WK so Police State should help with troops build-up.

 

[Manco Capac]

Join in, C63! A person with such reputation in XOTM is more than welcomed.
Yessu, more competition....

EDIT: I know people may think I'm completely hyperactive...but I don't care! I'm a younster after all.

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Thank you AgedOne for this brief study, which will help people to concentrate their search to only find a bridge between the two continents.

What I did was simply a sketch:

Low seas, Normal continents, Islands mixed

Positions A, C, F and H are the most likely to fall into the same continent, mine.

 

[Manco Capac]

SB was a real pain... his LB's were a real problem.

So what you are basically saying, SB as neighbour is the best for quick kill.

 

[Bjering]

Hi, I am considering trying this, have never played a Gauntlet (or even a HOF game), so here is a newbie question. Does conquest victory condition means I have to win through the conquest victory condition only or is Domination ok/expected too? If not, do you have any pointer how to avoid winning a Domination victory first (as all VCs must be checked)?

 

[The-Hawk]

Hi Bjering, welcome to the HOF (and Civfanatics)...

In this case, you must win by Conquest. If you win by Domination the game will not count towards the Gauntlet (however, it can still be submitted to the HOF). The trick is to make sure you raze enough cities as you go. This will allow you to finish off all the AI's without meeting the land requirement for domination.

So what you are basically saying, SB as neighbour is the best for quick kill.

It would be nice to get rid of him before LBs. Of course, we can't have everyone close enough to rush . In my case, I simply underestimated their strength, I did not bring enough trebs on my first try at his capital. I don't think he spams units, my gut tells me Shaka is the key guy to kill early. Unfortunately, in my game,that won't happen. Once I get over there, I will need to slug it out with him. This is not going to be a fast finish.

 

[Manco Capac]

At last, I have time to see Agey's game and...I am a bit disappointed by one fact. Do not fear the warmongers! An early Shaka is just like an early Lincoln to me. Only difference: Shaky tends to suicide more his archers to your warriors.

Remember the first advice I gave: Steal workers like beast. In my first attempt, I virtually attacked everyone (Raggy, Shaky and SB but Mansa) multiples times, not caring the diplomatic malus caused by attacking warmonger friends. I am not gunning a diplomatic victory but a bloodbath victory.

Believe me, Agey, do not fear Emperor AI, it is not Monarch AI where archers wander around, making yourself teeth grinding. The scouts have its role: prey for your enslavers (warriors). Do not begin with a worker, enslave. After at least three warriors, perhaps a worker may be opportune if the worker farming wasn't enough fruitious. I know normal speed is a bit harder than Epic speed for exemplary worker steal but it still works.

You may think they will spam archers and their city capture becomes impossible. Nope!
Raggy still had two archers when I attacked with my chariots at turn 48. Sitting Bull still has two archers by 1000 BC. Only Shaky had three archers. They spend as much time as a peacemonger for re-training their lost workers.

Still, I am glad you are becoming a monst...uh...I mean a warmonger. Keep it up. I will support you for sure.

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On a percentage basis, I seemed to share with the AI in positions 1 and 3 more often (about 75%) and 8 a fair amount (about 66%). I rarely shared with the AI in position 4 (16%) and only sometimes those in positions 2, 5 and 7 (about 25%)

I put this part in blue because it is pragmatic information I counsel people to use.

I did not try to influence starting positions of AI's (didn't know we could do so), [...]

Even very experienced players may find its use.

Nonetheless, you forgot position 6, the last team number that has a non-negligible percentage to share the same continent.

I am happy you actively join the conversation. We form a joyous party for thread spamming.

 

[The-Hawk]

Remember the first advice I gave: Steal workers like beast. In my first attempt, I virtually attacked everyone (Raggy, Shaky and SB but Mansa) multiples times, not caring the diplomatic malus caused by attacking warmonger friends. I am not gunning a diplomatic victory but a bloodbath victory.

This is something I need to try next time. The game I had underway, I built worker first and I think only stole one from the AIs. All those early workers must have launched you well.

By the way, I discovered my problems with Sitting Bull. Turns out he had Chicken Itza. That made his protective LBs even worse. I am plodding along and will be away this weekend... probably will take me several more days to finish.

 

[AgedOne]

AgedOne, one suggestion... I noticed in one of your caps you improved two golds, but there is an unimproved pig tile. Almost without exception, I improve food tiles first. Rex is all about growth and whipping.

Yes. I think I was a bit slow at improving the pig tile. I got AH on turn 34 and it was turn 53 before I built my pasture.
But I think you have a good point about my general emphasis and prioritisation. I was thinking "Build an army. Kill kill kill. Take their capitals. Raze the rest". Your point is that if I emphasised food I would have been in a position to whip more often and would have got my army quicker (?)

...Do not fear the warmongers! An early Shaka is just like an early Lincoln to me.

I will have to practice my "Scream and Attack"!
I haven't had the experience of seeing crazy unit-spammers like Shaka roll over before my military, so you'll have to excuse my faint-heartedness

(I feel rather like a fresh new gladiator, looking into an arena containing 3 fully-grown lions. They look ridiculously strong to me. My friend, who has met these before, says simply "Oh, they're easy. Just duck under the first blow and aim for the heart. I've done it loads of times!")

Steal workers like beast. In my first attempt, I virtually attacked everyone (Raggy, Shaky and SB but Mansa) multiples times, not caring the diplomatic malus caused by attacking warmonger friends.

OK. Insanity is best! Point noted. I'll be trying that next time

Believe me, Agey, do not fear Emperor AI, it is not Monarch AI where archers wander around, making yourself teeth grinding. The scouts have its role: prey for your enslavers (warriors). Do not begin with a worker, enslave. After at least three warriors, perhaps a worker may be opportune if the worker farming wasn't enough fruitious. I know normal speed is a bit harder than Epic speed for exemplary worker steal but it still works.

You're being a bit obscure here. Are you saying I should attack the AI scouts before I attempt to capture their workers? There's no 'enslaving' in Civ4 Is there?

You may think they will spam archers and their city capture becomes impossible. Nope!
Raggy still had two archers when I attacked with my chariots at turn 48. Sitting Bull still has two archers by 1000 BC. Only Shaky had three archers. They spend as much time as a peacemonger for re-training their lost workers.

Well, Shaka was not so obliging in my game, but that could have been down to 2 things: (i) I hadn't been stealing workers from him, requiring him to waste time on rebuilding them. I will certainly put that to the test next time!
(ii) He was preparing for war with Wang, or so I believe. Most of his units were near Wang's border when I leapt on his less defended flank .

Anyway. Thanks both for your comments. I will be trying again soon.
I'm just hoping I will find as good a start again so easily. 3 gold, corn, pigs, stone for the capital; copper and horses just a stones-throw away

 

[AgedOne]

At the risk of even more 'thread-spamming' ...

I had a practice run of that same start again (obviously not for publication) just to see how much better I could play it.
Well, it was much better - but I'm not sure if it is good enough yet.

Taking your advice, Tachywaxon, I went on a worker-stealing frenzy. I didn't worry who I was taking them from. The uglier the better! To continue my earlier analogy, I was really just poking those lions in the eye to goad them

So, after one or two workers from each of Shaka, Ragnar and Alexander (I think I may have stolen one from Wang, too, but he was more protective of them) I was able to develop my homelands very nicely! A core of 3 cities covering the copper and horses.

So then I went to war with Shaka, while continuing to chop and whip my axemen - and the occasional chariot.
It was a ding-dong battle! Some of his cities were on hills, and had numbers of archers, but his capital Ulundi was on the flat so I by-passed other cities to take that first. Unfortunately I lost a number of attackers, and only got one axeman inside on taking it - so he immedately retook. Then I took it back, and so on for about 4 flips! Finally I got it and held it.

My strength was now about double that of Shaka. I pressed on and took each of his other cities (he had 4 initially). It was a huge battle and I lost almost entire armies on some of those hill cities. In fact I had to give up on one temporarily and retake it with fresh units.

Exhausting, but I did it! I had started my war on turn 59. Shaka was dead by turn 103.

So it can be done. Quicker would be better! I would just need to turn to my next victims with a promoted army and rule my continent.

I just need to find as good a map start again!

 

[Manco Capac]

Before commenting every part, Agey, I hope I didn't offend you. I am trying to encourage you to do something you're not used to not to mock you. For some reason, I see ambivalence in these posts...like calling me Tachy then my full nickname.

BTW, I giggled during one minute when you mentioned "insanity is best!". Technically, that tactic is über-monsterzuma attitude.

 

[AgedOne]

Before commenting every part, Agey, I hope I didn't offend you. I am trying to encourage you to do something you're not used to not to mock you. For some reason, I see ambivalence in these posts...like calling me Tachy then my full nickname.

BTW, I giggled during one minute when you mentioned "insanity is best!". Technically, that tactic is über-monsterzuma attitude.

No! Don't think that I am offended!

It is always difficult to get my actual meanings and what I feel about things across when I'm writing. Also, it's not so easy to read my mind! I'm aware that I write in a slightly obscure way sometimes (even for people who know me well ) and my sense of humour carries quite a degree of irony and understatement that can easily be misinterpreted.

I would normally prefer to call all of the folks that I know reasonably well by some shortening of their name. Unfortunately, sometimes I forget. Worse is when the forum inserts a full name as part of a quote and I haven't got the energy to turn all of the full names into abbreviations .

If you want a real picture of my state-of-mind, then look at my 'inexperienced gladiator' analogy. But picture it in cartoon form, with humour! And the friends who are telling him that the lions are beatable are being helpful. And the gladiator knows it, but his mind is still boggled at the idea of poking the lions in the eye .

 

[Manco Capac]

Believe me, Agey, do not fear Emperor AI, it is not Monarch AI where archers wander around, making yourself teeth grinding. The scouts have its role: prey for your enslavers (warriors). Do not begin with a worker, enslave. After at least three warriors, perhaps a worker may be opportune if the worker farming wasn't enough fruitious. I know normal speed is a bit harder than Epic speed for exemplary worker steal but it still works.

You're being a bit obscure here. Are you saying I should attack the AI scouts before I attempt to capture their workers? There's no 'enslaving' in Civ4 Is there?

Insanity struck me. It doesn't make sense. This requires more precisions to render the whole more intelligible.

First, a brief comparison between Monarch and Emperor AI is the first AI will use one of its initial archers for scouting, thus making worker stealing a risky entreprise.

Nonetheless, this doesn't make it impossible as I did it in a challenge game.
An emperor AI has scouts for scouting (perissology...) and the archers mostly remain stuck within capital BFC. Archers wandering occur, less frequently notwithstanding. Fast experience for warriors when being charismatic is quite powerful on lower speeds, but on normal speed, it is necessity because we need woodsman II warriors (which I affectuously nicknamed "enslaver", nothing less). Killing scouts first is doable because the AI agrees to a cease fire (no peace treaty nevertheless) then. Even Shaka did.

 

[AgedOne]

Insanity struck me. It doesn't make sense. This requires more precisions to render the whole more intelligible.
...
because we need woodsman II warriors (which I affectuously nicknamed "enslaver", nothing less). Killing scouts first is doable because the AI agrees to a cease fire (no peace treaty nevertheless) then. Even Shaka did.

Thanks, Tachy. It all begins to fall into place!
Your warrior is a more effective worker-stealer when it can move fast through woodland. So we attack scouts to gain these promotions.

I may have a try of this tactic later today!

 

[The-Hawk]

OK, I've submitted a first game. Not very fast, I overestimated how much of an army I would need on the far continent. Once I had my SOD's in place, the last AI's rolled over very quickly. As a result, I am now of an opinion that I don't care who is next to me at the start .

If I got all the settings right and the game is accepted, your target to shoot for is 1645 AD

 

[AgedOne]

OK, I've submitted a first game. Not very fast, I overestimated how much of an army I would need on the far continent. Once I had my SOD's in place, the last AI's rolled over very quickly. As a result, I am now of an opinion that I don't care who is next to me at the start .

If I got all the settings right and the game is accepted, your target to shoot for is 1645 AD

I never doubted that you would be one of the contenders for this gauntlet, The-Hawk!

So, how did the game go? Did you rush anyone really early, or build up a powerful economic base and a tech lead first?
What kind of military did you use (a) on you own continent, and (b) for the final push?

I'm pretty sure that I will struggle to get any submission in during the time. I haven't been close to clearing my own continent yet.

 

[The-Hawk]

I played a very conservative builder game. My early game was peaceful REX, founded 8 cities by 225 BC. I did a CS sling, built GLH and Colossus. I assumed I would need rifles and cannons, I was also worried about cash to support units overseas. So, I built significant infrastructure (cottages, banks, etc.). Finished Oxford in 1080. Took Steel from Liberalism in 1220 AD. I got Astronomy late (1505 AD)... I decided to hold off until after I tech'd rifles and cannons because I didn't want to lose Colossus.

I had one worker steal, then no other wars until 350 AD. Matter of fact, I did not declare this war. I happened to be building up forces to attack Alex when he DOW'd on me in 350. I quickly killed him with Trebs and Maces.

960, declared on Ragnar, still with Maces and Trebs. 1100 Sitting Bull. This war proved to be the biggest pain. SB's well promoted, Chicken-powered LBs burned a lot of trebs. 1390, I declare on Mansa with Cannon, Phants, and Maces.

At this point, Hammy is a beast. He has Wang and Pacal as vassals and is chewing on Shaka. My problem... only Shaka will give me Open Borders. I am pretty sure Hammy will Vassalize him as well, then I will have trouble with troop buildup. I know I will need a bunch of troops since a DOW on Hammy brings in two others. So, I trade Hammy a tech to get him to make peace, then I load units onto Shaka's lands.

In 1600, I declare on Hammy and his vassals. At this point I am using cannon, rifles and cavalry. I hit all three from Shaka's lands, also hit from the other side with two amphib landings. Hammy has a large stack, but he left them right next to Shaka's borders, so I am able to sucker punch him and destroy them on the first turn of the war. Hammy capitulates in 3 turns, the two vassals shortly follow. At that point, it is simple for me to get my units realigned on Shaka's borders and finish him off.

So, learnings on this one... I think I overcooked my infrastructure by far. Having all that economy was nice, it allowed me to cash rush units like mad (once I captured Mids). However, if I didn't take so long building up the infra, I would not have needed so many units. As it was, I brought way too many units to the far continent before declaring. I really expected the far continent to have massive armies. My time can be easily beaten.

I have started a second attempt. In this case, I am going to try less infrastructure and get on with warring much sooner. I also adopted Tachy's worker farming. Problem in this game, only one AI on the same island as me and it is not a very productive island. I made CS sling, but was beaten to GLH. I decided not to try for Colossus this time. I am building Oxford, but I'm not sure that is a smart move.

With a poor map, I probably will not do well. However, I will finish just for the experience.

If anyone rolls up a map that does not require Astronomy, they will kick ass in this gauntlet.

 

[Manco Capac]

Problem in this game, only one AI on the same island as me and it is not a very productive island.

[...] However, I will finish just for the experience. (You sure?)

Reroll.

 

[AgedOne]

@The-Hawk
Thanks for the game description. Very interesting, not least because it's a different approach from the one I have been trying.
There must be some challenges that you face when attempting to Rex and grow an economic base when surrounded by such unrefined neighbours. I would imagine you have to keep up your military strength, even before you plan to use it, simply to deter them from attacking you?
I would also be concerned that I wasn't getting a big enough tech lead in enough time to be able to exploit it - when the violence commenced. But maybe that's just me.

I have a game going, and although the military action is going steadily, I have not yet cleared my continent in 1100AD. I can see this one finishing in the 2000s, if it finishes at all!
Naturally, I approached it in a very different manner - early rush, pause for tech and economy only up to maces & currency - then press on to conquer the home continent.
Slow!

 

[Manco Capac]

Keep it up, Agey! Without crippling the AI's the gameplay becomes way harder.
All this military strength feature becomes nil when the cripple phase is well tuned.
Attack scouts on the field, they gives 2 XP at ~99% victory, then it reduces greatly the chance of loss. A loss often leads the AI thinking is going to win, then refusing CF.

Another detail I've recently learnt: usually a worker stolen the same turn of DoW means military units will remain stunned for one turn. Well, it happens too when already in war state. With a woodsman II warrior (enslaver), I attacked a worker belonging to SB working a corn tile in the first culture ring, next to two archers garrisoned in the city. I was able to flee without a scratch. I think the shock attack misleads the AI to consider the worker is still there. Seriously, woodsman II warrior makes the game very buggy.

Disclaimer: I know I look like a priest promoting recurrently and religiously about worker farming, but I truly believe this step is essential for earlier dates and easier conquest of our home continent.

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I made a stop to my first attempt (normally it would be finished by time), but I'm trying to find a path to get Astro in the BC through bulbing pattern...it is hard! For once, I don't wanna rely solely on luck hoping a bridge is formed, but I want to have a solid strategy behind.