G-Major 94

[shulec]

Flip a coin. You have a 50/50 chance of domination/conquest. You can starve/whip your cities to try to drop below the domination population threshold. You try to gift away cities, but you may not be able to give them to vassals. You can try to liberate or form colonies too.

 

[Manco Capac]

Flip a coin. You have a 50/50 chance of domination/conquest. You can starve/whip your cities to try to drop below the domination population threshold. You try to gift away cities, but you may not be able to give them to vassals. You can try to liberate or form colonies too.

Are you sure of such random victory? Somebody told me in a PA alliance, a tech giving a free great people is attributed randomly to either one or the other partner in single player mode; with a test game, I proved the contrary. So might be the same for conquest/domination preponderance.

 

[The-Hawk]

My question is, if I vassal him, I will complete both domination and conquest victory conditions, does the game check for them in a particular order when it decides which one to award you? I am obviously trying to avoid a domination victory.

As shulec described, I have always understood that if you finish two victory conditions at the same time, it randomly picks one. I have definitely seen concurrent conquest/domination go both ways. You need to make sure you fail one of the domination criteria. After the last guy capitulates, you need to check the victory conditions screen before you click to end your turn. If you are over the dom limit, then gift cities back before you end your turn. I needed to gift back 3 cities on my first game.

You try to gift away cities, but you may not be able to give them to vassals.

Yes, you can gift to vassals. In my game, I gifted right before clicking to end my last turn. All 8 AI were vassals. The biggest risk is the AI's might not want your cities. They can be pretty selective in what they will accept as gifts.

Turn 172, 1120 AD Conquest Victory.

That is a heck of a good time.

I guess you've shown early Astronomy is the key. I assume you conquered remote lands with Trebs and Maces? I did not think they would not be sufficient. Sounds like Oxford and Liberalism are a waste of time.

I usually try to win Conquest/Domination games before any Civ completes Feudalism.

I'm not expecting that to happen with these settings!!

 

[Stormi]

I didn't want to risk the game to chance so I just kept fighting and razed the rest of the remaining cities to ensure conquest, that added about 20 extra turns to my game. I had a date of 1685, but I might try again this weekend. I also think it is key to either get astronomy early or roll a map with an island chain between all the continents.

 

[Manco Capac]

That is a heck of a good time.

I guess you've shown early Astronomy is the key. I assume you conquered remote lands with Trebs and Maces? I did not think they would not be sufficient. Sounds like Oxford and Liberalism are a waste of time.

Awww...

, you even nicknamed me over my nickname.

Unrefined Barbarian attitude: "Oxford University....

?
Wut iz dat? I ain't brilliant, but my sword never lied to me when I had to slice heads."

(In other words, put altogether warmongers and peacemongers to keep them busy and crush their heads with maces and trebs later. That is why localization of AI's is such an important factor!)
A setting I didn't put, but I should have is Aggressive AI. Because of that small error, the AI's got feudalism. By 1000 AD, Alex just teched it.

Liberalism may be an alternative under the condition you bulb Education to make even either Astro directly of Education/Liberalism route. Paper is a must whatever the situation for optimizing the armies marches.

Nonetheless, this attempt was my first attempt I talked about since the beginning of the gauntlet, not the one I wished for where Astro comes early. In this attempt, I discovered it around 700 AD and my army wasn't prepared yet (just a handful of maces). In the ideal case where I get Astro much earlier, all I'll have to do is to attack with macemen, crossbowmen, war elephants (or spears) and cats.

I didn't mention it, but that attempt was so near to be the perfect one with bridge of islands. Unfortunately, it is one ocean tile too much.

Last thought, if you praise me, don't forget to praise the true number one when its time comes.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I am in the mop-up phase of my first attempt game, and I am just under the land area limit for a domination win. I am at war with the last remaining AI who was the 2nd biggest civ land wise. He will capitulate now and give me a victory, but having him as my vassal will put me over the domination limit.
My question is, if I vassal him, I will complete both domination and conquest victory conditions, does the game check for them in a particular order when it decides which one to award you? I am obviously trying to avoid a domination victory.

If more than one victory condition applies in the same turn, the game will randomly pick one.

You have a 50/50 chance of getting the victory you want.

Are you lucky?

I would just capture and raze his cities, until you are sure that capitulation will not trigger domination or you win by "pure" (non-vassal) conquest.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I didn't mention it, but that attempt was so near to be the perfect one with bridge of islands. Unfortunately, it is one ocean tile too much.

Every naval stack needs a Settler for such situations and a way to create culture fast. When your city pops to ring 2, your naval stack can proceed past the one tile too far straight (three ocean tiles between land tiles).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Manco Capac]

Every naval stack needs a Settler for such situations and a way to create culture fast. When your city pops to ring 2, your naval stack can proceed past the one tile too far straight (three ocean tiles between land tiles).

Sun Tzu Wu

That was four ocean tiles between land tiles, thus one ocean tile too much. The ocean tiles along the coast...I call them coast tiles. Bad language of mine brings confusion.

 

[Manco Capac]

If more than one victory condition applies in the same turn, the game will randomly pick one.

You have a 50/50 chance of getting the victory you want.

Are you lucky?

I would just capture and raze his cities, until you are sure that capitulation will not trigger domination or you win by "pure" (non-vassal) conquest.

Sun Tzu Wu

To add tips: try to capture cities that had generated the most culture inland ASAP. If done very fast (because you can use the city disorder to your advantage!), you can keep the cities and when the foe vassalized, you have more population (better score) and the victim will indulge better the fact he is beaten.
I did it in my attempt: I captured Alex's most culturally extended cities (mostly inland and one completely seafaring) fast (two-three turns) and kept the cities just for population. The civil disorder kept me from gaining the according BFC.

Nonetheless, if you really fear the worst, just raze the cities. The people within the walls are feasting you arrival anyways... (feast sound when capture...)

Another question for all!: At the moment of a city capture, often, we see resulting irregular culture patterns that do not correspond to neighbour normal cultural patterns. Later, it takes its initial form back. By experience, I use this advantage to use roads and march faster to other cities. Here is the question to its core: How many turns in general does it take to retrieve normal cultural patterns?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

How many turns in general does it take to retrieve normal cultural patterns?

My guess is about 1-2 full turns.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[shyuhe]

I just realized that this gauntlet is very similar to the recent SGOTM. So in theory, it should be possible to push a date well under 1000 AD... OSS got astronomy shortly after 1 AD and conquered the world by 670 AD using maces/trebs/galleons. I believe we bulbed engineering using a GS in that game and double bulbed astronomy by avoiding any techs that unlocked paper.

 

[Habitus]

Since America starts with fishing it makes the engineering bulb, with a GS, not practical, so getting an GE may work or atleast cut Engineering down to 1 turn of research. Astronomy bulb just requires skipping CS and Theo, CS being the sacrifice really.

 

[shulec]

Since America starts with fishing it makes the engineering bulb, with a GS, not practical, so getting an GE may work or atleast cut Engineering down to 1 turn of research. Astronomy bulb just requires skipping CS and Theo, CS being the sacrifice really.

I would normally say that going without bureaucracy is a huge sacrifice. But this really doesn't matter that much in a warmonger game, since you will be less focused on research. I think bureaucracy gives a greater boost to research due to modifiers (academy, library, universities, observatory) via the increased commerce. Sure the increased production is great, but hammers can come from many different sources. Also, the only early hammer modifier is the forge. There is also a great alternative to bureaucracy: vassalage.

I would not have considered skipping bureaucracy. But using vassalage is a good alternative. Also with Lincoln being charismatic, level three units will come quickly.

 

[bcool]

Tachywaxon requested my save files even though I had a power outage and apparently didn't repeat the turn exactly so the game was rejected.

so here is a 1070 AD win

 

[Manco Capac]

Tachywaxon requested my save files even though I had a power outage and apparently didn't repeat the turn exactly so the game was rejected.

so here is a 1070 AD win

If someone lost its time to read post #65, I made a hidden message at the bottom of it.
I guess some has doubts...

Last thought, if you praise me, don't forget to praise the true number one when its time comes. [/COLOR]

In consequence, the true number one is bcool and if nobody beats 1070 AD or my date, I don't wanna hear: "Good job for number #1, Tachy!", but instead directed to bcool who is the true winner up to now (even though bad luck struck him).

Justice has to respected.


EDIT: I will see those save tomorrow because it is late here...

 

[shulec]

I sure wish I enjoyed these war-monger games like you guys! These are so painful. Anyway, I submitted a 1340 AD conquest.

Spoiler :

Thanks for the tips above.

Keys to my game:
Worker stealing. (I think there has been mention of the around here, but I'm not sure by whom!)
Mansa Musa on my continent.
Not stealing any of his workers; i.e. no war declarations on him. (For trades and eventually a peace vassal)
Wiping out Wang Kon, Shaka, and Sitting Bull with chariots. (By about 600 BC).
Research /ecomony: Built both GLH & Pyramids (Representation) Bulbed: Compass, Machinery, Astronomy and Engineering.
Police state/vassalage/slavery/theocracy.

I did make a really dumb mistake that turned out looking like tactical genius:

Leadup to the blunder
Ragnar was my first victim on the other side of the pond. He had three coastal cites, one inland city, and a few on distant islands. I razed his tundra coast city and kept the other three with a bare bones defenses. He capitulated once I had his mainland cities. The two coastal cities were great landing sites for reinforcements that were on their way.

The blunder
I kept three of the cities and left weenie garrisons, expecting no attack. My next victim was Alexander, the strongest on the island with one vassal. I charged with two stacks at his core cities. He flanked me with his stack and took one of the cities that I had only two longbowmen for garrison. I cleared out the other two cities I had gotten from Ragnar to cut my losses and gave them to Alex. He gets all the spoils from the previous war. At this point, I am marching through Alex's land, razing his cities.

The blunder turned wonder
Alex's stack was split between three cities. He has no culture and they are in revolt. My 2nd wave of troops takes back the the two coastal cities: one is razed, and Ragnar's capitol is given back. The capitol gets it culture back immediately. There is no culture in the area other that Ragnar's. My reinforcements nail Alex's main stack sitting in Ragnar's old inland city, with no walls or cultural defenses.

This greatly expedites my vassalating Alex with minimal troop losses from losing three cities.

 

[The-Hawk]

I decided to try skipping CS sling and going for Astronomy via bulb. I thought I would go heavy research, which meant no early war except for worker steals.

I ended up abandoning because it was not going well. My map had too much surrounding jungle and I popped a GP which delayed Astronomy (IIRC I had Astro around 600 AD). However, I have to say this has been an eye opener. I've always been in a CS-sling rut.

Some questions:

1) I used Oracle for Machinery. I then made a beeling for GLib. I think this is a good plan given the reliance on scientists for research (and to pop GS). Have others had this experience?

2) What are peoples thoughts on currency? Should this be picked up early? I skipped it hoping to trade for it, then was not able to do so. Now I'm thinking it is worth the diversion from an Astro beeline.

3) I am starting to wonder about heavy worker stealing. Obviously, they give you a big REX boost. But later, everyone is pissed which stifles trade. This begs a bigger war question... is it worth building units to get some early conquests at the expense of research?

Tachywaxon, I know you were playing around with early Astronomy. Did you come to any conclusions on the best path to get there?

 

[Conquistador 63]

As my first submission was duly rejected (crash issues), I had a 2nd go. No crashes this time (using an older video board, go figure), so I expect this one to be accepted soon.

Started near Wang, Pacal and Mansa. 5AI overseas. Chariot rushed Wang (2000BC), Pacal (600BC), getting some workers in the process. Oracled MC, bulbed Compass, Machinery, Optics, Astro in 75AD.

This date was good, but I did not have enough troops to ferry until much later. Meanwhile, backstabbed my friend Mansa, who vassalized as soon as I got feudalism from overseas trade. BTW Shaka and others had it since the early AD's.

Overseas fun started in 840AD. Ragnar went 1st for his GLH and Mids, then I went for Alex. I was about to cap him when Shaka declared on me, even if I had like 3x his power. Maybe he was plotting to attack my newly acquired vassal. Then Alex became "too afraid of my powerful enemy" to vassalize.

I had to turn to Shaka, and eventually both vassalized in the same turn. Hammy had 2 cities only and vassalized in a couple turns, but SB, who spawned in the island region and had 5 cities, decided to fight until his last city/unit.

It was a good game (1170AD), but not enough to beat Tachywaxon's excellent one!
Anyways, I learned a lot from playing this gauntlet and even more from this thread!

 

[Manco Capac]

Tachywaxon, I know you were playing around with early Astronomy. Did you come to any conclusions on the best path to get there?

I reviewed my posts and I made no clear assertion on how I got Astro: my first attempt was a classical one where I did the CS sling-shot and Liberalism gave me Astro around 720 AD (I think). I didn't get the desired attempt where Astro is bulbed.
And to paraphrase myself, I really wonder if one can manage a really good REX and an early Astro date. I tend to think one needs to find a compromise of both.

As my first submission was duly rejected (crash issues), I had a 2nd go. No crashes this time (using an older video board, go figure), so I expect this one to be accepted soon.

[...]

It was a good game (1170AD), but not enough to beat Tachywaxon's excellent one!
Anyways, I learned a lot from playing this gauntlet and even more from this thread!

Oh la la!

My second place is being coveted I see! I had to try once again lest I might lose my position. But bloody competition for my health!
Honestly, C63, your astro date rocks as hell! But you confirmed my fears: you were not ready for war...that is the problem I think. Your invasion date is awesome too. I did tread my foe lands in 1000 AD exactly. I really wonder what kind of soldiers did you use...

 

[The-Hawk]

I'm getting a little better. I played a peaceful early game (other than several worker steals). Finished Astro in 175 AD, then quickly bulbed Engineering in 225 AD. Not too bad given I had no Marble and I lost time building Oracle and GLib. Bulbing Engg allowed me to start building Trebs and Galleons while I slow researched CS for maces. I then slow researched Feudalism while I built maces. I made one stupid mistake... I forgot I had Ivory, so I did not take a side trip to research HR. I could have been building early Phants and sending them out while I built maces.

Anyhow, since I did not kill any local AI's early, I did not have a great production base to take advantage of my good research. Took me a while to build sufficient army to finish the job. This meant I was up against LBs all over the place. I also misjudged how many unit I needed to kill the local AI's, should have sent more overseas. Also, looking at how quickly others are capitulating AI's makes me realize I am getting lazy on my overseas wars. I have been simply dropping a large stack and letting it run amok. However, I am wasting too much time moving around.

Anyhow, limped in at 1360. Not even on the podium at the moment.

This date was good, but I did not have enough troops to ferry until much later.

And to paraphrase myself, I really wonder if one can manage a really good REX and an early Astro date. I tend to think one needs to find a compromise of both.

I agree, this is the real trick. Some REX by conquest to get a better production base is just the ticket. Question is how much?