G-Minor CI

[Mesix]

I leave the default general focus, but I lock down some good production tiles early in the game. This is especially good in a Petra city, because locking down desert hills with mines or pastures on then will help to get Petra and Hanging Gardens earlier and then they get +1 +1 when Petra finishes.

I think the Oxford for Astronomy is a strong move in this one too. Astronomy is still quite an expensive tech at that point in the game, and getting the +50% from the Observatory early (along with the bonus from Oxford) will really help the mid game tech pace.

I need to work on getting Education earlier. I moved my settler 2 spaces to settle on the hill/river/mountain, so if I had rolled a start where I would settle in place I could get it down to turn 68. Shaving 7 turns off that time would make a big difference.

 

[zenmaster]

From a raw bulb standpoint, Astronomy costs 574 bulbs in this one, while Scientific Theory costs 1174, Radio costs 2179. Plastics costs 3014, and Rockets 4704 as far as things you might want to use Oxford University on. You get the most bulbs for your buck the later you do it; It also takes fewer turns to build the later you do it because your cap's production increases all game--

but it depends what doing it sooner helps you get more of or helps you snowball to.
Rather than raw bulbs, you need to think about how much time to spaceship launch it ultimately saves you.

The +3 science/turn is not nearly enough to make up the bulb difference in and of itself even with a snowball effect. Getting a few more turns of a science building and its specialists is helpful, and being able to time it to unlock a key policy like Rationalism opener/Civil Society/Worker's Faculty (or New Deal in this one) also adds to the snowball effect to make up for the lost raw bulbs.

Radio almost always hits the sweet spot for me to use Oxford on. Around Astronomy time, Oxford takes longer to build in turns than it does later and I always feel I've got a crowded build queue at that point with wonders or gold production items I want to build ASAP. To me the opportunity cost of using it on Astronomy is relatively high.

Using it on Scientific Theory is solid in that it brings on new building/specialist/era/spy, but it's only two short techs from there to Radio which costs TWICE the bulbs Scientific Theory does. Even if I get public school up instantly, Radio usually takes more turns to research normally for me than Sci Theory or Astronomy do at their times, so using it on Radio saves me the most tech research time without considering compounding effects.

Though Radio doesn't give you a new sci building, it gives you a new era/spy and most importantly ideology that much faster, which if going Freedom is an instant Great Person generation/Food bonus as well as science/happiness if the policy timing works out. My building queue isn't very crowded at that point, since if I know I'm going Freedom, I haven't researched Industrialism yet, so no factories on tap, and the Ancient/Medieval wonder races are already over. City production is higher than at the Astronomy time with more tiles worked and a workshop, so Radio is my default option for Oxford.

Using Oxford on Plastics or even Rockets seems worth considering but I have never considered it seriously before. Radio is such a big jump in bulbs, and an earlier ideology always feels so powerful that I have never been able to justify hard-teching Radio to save Oxford for later.

In vadalaz' situation, with an instant observatory and if he had Rationalism opener timed to happen right then (with maybe a prebuilt Oracle ready even for another quick Rationalism policy?... or a soon to come Oracle?), I can see it making sense for a good snowball. 4-6 turns earlier of observatory, x # of turns earlier Rationalism, and the earlier Oxford bulbs probably make up for the lost raw (and usually timing) bulbs from saving it. I think having the money to buy an instant observatory and the timing to get Rationalism policies right after Astronomy are almost mandatory to make it worth building Oxford that early.

 

[Mesix]

Oxford was a 2 turn build (later 1 turn) in my game because I had Petra before Education. Assuming you have about 50 when you finish Education, building Oxford and rushing an Observatory will net you 3 plus 50% (about 28-30 total per turn).

At a cost of 574, the free tech will save 10-12 turns of research on Astronomy. Going from 50 to 75+ per turn will make reaching Scientific Theory more than 10-12 turns earlier. Taking Rationalism policies sooner will also help to increase science further than the observatory and Oxford output alone. If timed right, you could use the Rationalism finisher to get Scientific Theory for free (or perhaps Radio).

In this OCC game, I think earlier is better. In a typical 4-6 city tall game, it can be beneficial to save the free techs for a bit later in the game (I generally do).

 

[zenmaster]

Success! Won on turn 179 this time. The map gods were kind enough to compensate for the lack of jungle with 4 religious CS. I was able to faith-buy 5 Great Scientists, and the final one saved me 3 or 4 turns. Had one wave of 3 RAs around turn 160, those gave me about 1500 beakers.

@Mesix, yes it was a Pangaea, a narrow snaky one though, so I didn't get too many ruins at first. There were a couple of islands off the main land that had more ruins though, and those got me 2 population late in the game.

Benchmarks: Education 61 or 62, Radio 107, Plastics 131. I oxforded Astronomy for a quick observatory, because without jungles my science rate felt pretty weak. Rationalism finisher on Satellites, planted 5 academies, bulbed all other GSs in the end.

Outstanding game! Didn't comment earlier because I couldn't see the screenshot, but now that I have -- impressive! 59 population is phenomenal. Way to work the faith. See you have a holy site there to help get that 5th GS. Going heavier on production early, the early Oxford makes all the sense in the world. Did you do anything different than usual with the SPs?

 

[vadalaz]

Outstanding game! Didn't comment earlier because I couldn't see the screenshot, but now that I have -- impressive! 59 population is phenomenal. Way to work the faith. See you have a holy site there to help get that 5th GS. Going heavier on production early, the early Oxford makes all the sense in the world. Did you do anything different than usual with the SPs?

Thanks. Didn't do anything unusual, full Tradition and Patronage opener pre-Renaissance, then Rationalism 4, then Scholasticism, New Deal, Mercantilism, finish up Rationalism and Freedom to tier 3. I also finished Patronage in the end, hoping that I'd get a lucky GS gift. As you can see I got a GE instead, but it didn't hurt to try.

 

[Bleidraner]

Well not my greatest game ever, but I want to have a submission in.

Played this one while taking a rest from the Caz challenge. Rolled a Petra with a couple of desert salts, not a great great start but OK.

Made a few mistakes, miscalculated my bulbs (forgot I had PT queued at 1 turn and had 1 GS to spare), and I stupidly let Arts funding pass, as I miss clicked on the host vote and voted Harun to host, but most importantly, I traded Open Borders for 268 gpt. I thought I was trading for cash, 268 is exactly the money I wanted to give the AI to sign an RA, but there you go. My most expensive mistake ever. Managed to recover from that, but all all in all, I probably lost 7-8 turns. May try again.

Spoiler :

EDIT: Ah yes, and I forgot to plant my 2nd and 3rd GSs, as you can probably deduce from low beakers, particularly stupid given the abundance of Petra hills.

Anyway, I am very proud of myself, I almost rage quit like 3 times during the game, but managed to just get on with it. I must be becoming an adult or something like that.

 

[Bleidraner]

Success! Won on turn 179 this time. The map gods were kind enough to compensate for the lack of jungle with 4 religious CS. I was able to faith-buy 5 Great Scientists, and the final one saved me 3 or 4 turns. Had one wave of 3 RAs around turn 160, those gave me about 1500 beakers.

@Mesix, yes it was a Pangaea, a narrow snaky one though, so I didn't get too many ruins at first. There were a couple of islands off the main land that had more ruins though, and those got me 2 population late in the game.

Benchmarks: Education 61 or 62, Radio 107, Plastics 131. I oxforded Astronomy for a quick observatory, because without jungles my science rate felt pretty weak. Rationalism finisher on Satellites, planted 5 academies, bulbed all other GSs in the end.

Edu 62? Wow.

 

[zenmaster]

Edu 62? Wow.

With the right capital, Edu in the 60-65 range is what you should be shooting for actually. It is Quick Setting, don't forget. Manpanzee had a T62 benchmark and my games have gone T65 or under as well and that is with moving 1-3 turns to place an optimal capital. Vadalaz could probably have gotten there a bit quicker if he really wanted to depending on his Petra setup. Plastics is the more important benchmark, I think, as jungle vs. non-jungle starts have very different mid-games and the makeup of your CS allies plays a bigger role midgame as well.

 

[zenmaster]

Well not my greatest game ever, but I want to have a submission in.

Played this one while taking a rest from the Caz challenge. Rolled a Petra with a couple of desert salts, not a great great start but OK.

Made a few mistakes, miscalculated my bulbs (forgot I had PT queued at 1 turn and had 1 GS to spare), and I stupidly let Arts funding pass, as I miss clicked on the host vote and voted Harun to host, but most importantly, I traded Open Borders for 268 gpt. I thought I was trading for cash, 268 is exactly the money I wanted to give the AI to sign an RA, but there you go. My most expensive mistake ever. Managed to recover from that, but all all in all, I probably lost 7-8 turns. May try again.

Spoiler :

View attachment 394320

EDIT: Ah yes, and I forgot to plant my 2nd and 3rd GSs, as you can probably deduce from low beakers, particularly stupid given the abundance of Petra hills.

Anyway, I am very proud of myself, I almost rage quit like 3 times during the game, but managed to just get on with it. I must be becoming an adult or something like that.

With miscalculations, misclicks, and omissions, your victory time seems really good actually! If you try again, explore the jungles. You won't be sorry.

 

[Bleidraner]

With the right capital, Edu in the 60-65 range is what you should be shooting for actually. It is Quick Setting, don't forget. Manpanzee had a T62 benchmark and my games have gone T65 or under as well and that is with moving 1-3 turns to place an optimal capital. Vadalaz could probably have gotten there a bit quicker if he really wanted to depending on his Petra setup. Plastics is the more important benchmark, I think, as jungle vs. non-jungle starts have very different mid-games and the makeup of your CS allies plays a bigger role midgame as well.

Ah yes, I have now played 3 starts to 63-64-63. Another thing I forgot. Beeline Writing-GL-NC. Too much Deity I guess.

 

[Smirk]

Success! Won on turn 179 this time. The map gods were kind enough to compensate for the lack of jungle with 4 religious CS. I was able to faith-buy 5 Great Scientists, and the

Benchmarks: Education 61 or 62, Radio 107, Plastics 131. I oxforded Astronomy for a quick observatory, because without jungles my science rate felt pretty weak. Rationalism finisher on Satellites, planted 5 academies, bulbed all other GSs in the end.

I've gotten Education as soon as turn 58, but I haven't come close to Plastics at 131. I think my best was in the mid 140s. What are you doing in that interim stage that accounts for the early Plastics? I assuming its growth or building science as thats what I hardly ever do, I seem to overvalue some of these wonders and I should stop trying to get them all.

Anyway, great job that must have taken some very high skilled play from plastics to wrap that up in 40. I was able to better my personal time with a 192, but I think thats it for the month.

Also I have done the Astro Oxford and I think its pretty effective for a number of cases. It may even be optimum for these settings. I mean the the long term value is one thing, but in this case you may not realize that, especially with a finish time of 170s, the value of those early saved turns which cascades if you can rush buy it. This is true for all the science techs.

 

[Bleidraner]

I've gotten Education as soon as turn 58, but I haven't come close to Plastics at 131. I think my best was in the mid 140s. What are you doing in that interim stage that accounts for the early Plastics? I assuming its growth or building science as thats what I hardly ever do, I seem to overvalue some of these wonders and I should stop trying to get them all.

Anyway, great job that must have taken some very high skilled play from plastics to wrap that up in 40. I was able to better my personal time with a 192, but I think thats it for the month.

Also I have done the Astro Oxford and I think its pretty effective for a number of cases. It may even be optimum for these settings. I mean the the long term value is one thing, but in this case you may not realize that, especially with a finish time of 170s, the value of those early saved turns which cascades if you can rush buy it. This is true for all the science techs.

I am on my second attempt and I got Plastics at 134, but I bulbed a GS to get there, Oxforded Radio. I keep thinking I should use the Rati closer instead of a GS for Plastics, but in this games where whatever you do (my best tech rate is around 950, just not enough, you will need to bulb 2 GS for the each of the 2 most expensive techs, I think Rati finisher needs to be used for something like Satellites.

@Zenmaster, I tried a jungle start and got a t203, but suffered throughout the game due to the lack of hammers. I really would like a sub190 (Smirk you are my target, Vadalaz is out of my range) and I have the feeling a have a better chance with a Petra start. Ideally both jungle and desert, but I am only willing to roll 20 maps for this one, no more, so I don't think that is gonna happen.

 

[vadalaz]

It's not clear to me what's better, jungle or desert. Manpanzee had an impressive t124 Plastics on a rather suboptimal start with 14 jungle tiles. The mid-game science boost is huge and makes up for not working many 3+ food tiles, but low production can be a problem. I think you have to pass on some wonders with a jungle start, e.g. Red Fort is nice for the scientist point but is it really necessary?

@Smirk, from Education to Plastics my priorities were growth, keeping CS allies, most importantly cultural ones, and planting 5 academies as soon as possible. That's where good production came into play, as it allowed me to finish both LToP and PT by t99.

 

[Bleidraner]

It's not clear to me what's better, jungle or desert. Manpanzee had an impressive t124 Plastics on a rather suboptimal start with 14 jungle tiles. The mid-game science boost is huge and makes up for not working many 3+ food tiles, but low production can be a problem. I think you have to pass on some wonders with a jungle start, e.g. Red Fort is nice for the scientist point but is it really necessary?

@Smirk, from Education to Plastics my priorities were growth, keeping CS allies, most importantly cultural ones, and planting 5 academies as soon as possible. That's where good production came into play, as it allowed me to finish both LToP and PT by t99.

Of course you used the wonders to plant the early scientists! I could not figure it out, I just knew that I could only plant 3 at a time where it made sense. Saved LToP and PT for as late (t175 or thereabouts, with Korea in your game you have to play it safe) as possible to avoid upping the counter. Thanks Vadalaz!

 

[zenmaster]

Saved LToP and PT for as late (t175 or thereabouts, with Korea in your game you have to play it safe) as possible to avoid upping the counter. Thanks Vadalaz!

I don't think you want to save Leaning Tower for late in this one; the earlier the better to boost all your GP generation. Yes, it bumps the counter but that 25% GP generation boost looms large. With all the bonuses and GS point wonders ( and Sweden as a friend) you can max out at 45.5 GS generation pts per turn, so an early counter bump is not so bad.

Also, you've probably played enough Petra starts to know not all Petra starts are created equal. Same holds true for jungle starts, so roll with one if you get a good one.

 

[Bleidraner]

Well I went for a Petra start. Won on 194, 57 pop in cap and 996bpt. I played without any major mistakes, could have gone 191 if I had played a little bit more optimally, slightly earlier RAs basically, one more round.

What dragged me down were my relatively poor start (Edu 69) due to not incredible terrain and not optimal play from me, and the fact that I could not get a WLTKD going until we'll into the 120s, as the luxury the cap was asking for was in the other continent and not worked until t120 or so, really frustrating.

My dirt was OK but not spectacular, Petra with some hills, 4 wheats (great) calendar luxury Incense (not so great). Hammers were a problem early on and I built a worker when I should have built a granary. Planted my 5 academies around 10 turns after Vadalaz. Was late to Plastics, t140, finished in 54 turns after Plastics which is OK, I played the end game well. Oxford Plastics, Rati finisher for Satellites (in OCC I think this is the optimal play, anybody has any other ideas for the Rati closer?).

I had 3 religious CSs and 4 cultural ones, I wish it was the other way round but I cannot complain, CS wise it is difficult to have a better mix.

I will roll a few more maps, I would need a better start to get closer to Vadalaz, mining luxury + desert or jungle start with some bananas and some nice hammers say Gems. If I get a god map in 20-30 rerolls I will play it, otherwise that's it for me.

@Zenmaster: yes realized after Vadalaz's post that I was not playing optimally by saving the LToP and PT for the end. I just need to start faster, if Edu 62, then 5 academies by 103, which would make a hell of a difference, with earlier observatory etc. Need to start with a mining luxury.

Spoiler :

 

[Mesix]

Hats off to everyone who has won in less than 200 turns.

 

[Smirk]

Well I went for a Petra start. Won on 194, 57 pop in cap and 996bpt. I played without any major mistakes, could have gone 191 if I had played a little bit more optimally, slightly earlier RAs basically, one more round.

My dirt was OK but not spectacular, ...

Hah, looks pretty spectacular to me! Forked rivers and all that wheat alongside the river is great, makes for a lot of early high food tiles.

Great job playing this one. Close to 60 pop, I'm happy if I make it to 50. Perhaps I should work on that more.

I've never tried to save either LToP and PT. The bonus to GP is essential. But at the same time I've never put any particular rush on them, they are high priority of course I just don't even recall by what turn I build them. What I generally do is time them after a natural scientist to at least not delay one before the additional cost for the free ones.

For the rati finisher I've used it on Nanotech, I believe on my 196 game. I think this is non-optimal because the number of scientists needed to open the tech are only available when you don't build more than 2 or so academies.

 

[zenmaster]

Oxford was a 2 turn build (later 1 turn) in my game because I had Petra before Education. Assuming you have about 50 when you finish Education, building Oxford and rushing an Observatory will net you 3 plus 50% (about 28-30 total per turn).

At a cost of 574, the free tech will save 10-12 turns of research on Astronomy. Going from 50 to 75+ per turn will make reaching Scientific Theory more than 10-12 turns earlier. Taking Rationalism policies sooner will also help to increase science further than the observatory and Oxford output alone. If timed right, you could use the Rationalism finisher to get Scientific Theory for free (or perhaps Radio).

In this OCC game, I think earlier is better. In a typical 4-6 city tall game, it can be beneficial to save the free techs for a bit later in the game (I generally do).

OK, if your science is only at 50 when it is time to research Astronomy, then yes, I agree wholeheartedly that Oxfording Astronomy to get an observatory earlier is a solid play.

However, 2 things to note-->

1)Astronomy does not just take your whole science score and give you 50% more. I went back and checked and my science went from 134 bulbs to only 170 after buying an observatory. Consider that in your calculations as to how much using Oxford then will help you.

2) Went back to look at my games and in each one I had 100+ science when it came time to research Astronomy. At a cost of 574 bulbs, that is at worst 6 turns to research and probably 5 with a little overflow. That only gives you 5-6 turns of extra observatory at a boost less than actual 50% of your total bulbs, assuming you can buy the observatory instantly also, which might not always be the case so soon after rush-buying your university. I just think you get better long term value for your hammers at this stage of the game building a market/key wonder than building Oxford, which can leap you to a bigger high-bulb-barrier tech like Sci Theory, Radio, or Plastics later. Those always seem to take more than 6 of your turns at that time to research.

I also believe in Bleidraner's comment that the Rationalism finisher in this one is best spent on something expensive nearer the endgame (like Satellites or one of the last 2 spaceship parts techs needed). With OCC, your max bulb output is ultimately capped at 1000 or so, which also caps your Great Scientists bulb yields. Those last tier techs needed are simply not bulbable in 1 turn, so the Rationalism finisher gives great value there. Great Scientists are in short supply in the endgame here, so you'll be hard-researching something late if you use your Rationalism finisher on Plastics and that takes up precious endgame time.

You either would have really mad culture or really slow science or some combination thereof to use Rationalism finisher on Scientific Theory. Burning all your Great Writers to do that somehow leaves you harder pressed to get the Commerce and Freedom policies done in good time if you are going Freedom. You'd be passing up much earlier Commerce 25% buying bonus policy and New Deal also. Using Rationalism finisher on Plastics is a more valid option as 6-10 more turns of a Research Lab would probably make up for that, but you might be forgoing an earlier Commerce +25% buying bonus policy to do so, and that may hinder your cashflow to buy spaceship parts at the end. You also will have to hard-research more expensive late-game techs by not using the Rationalism finisher for one of them. So many factors are interrelated, which makes the game, and debates about strategies, interesting to ponder!

Using Oxford early on Astronomy can be a good play, but I'm not sure if it's something you want to be shooting for, even on these settings.

 

[Bleidraner]

Success. Chose a jungle start for this one, with a couple of Bananas and 3 Citruses, 3 desert tiles, 2 of them hills for Petra, unfortunately 2 coast tiles 5 tiles with mountains, all 7 useless, and 7 jungle tiles, so not bad, but my Petra start was better. By the way Smirk, you are absolutely right, my Petra start was phenomenal, I just misplayed it, I mean I wish I had a mining luxury instead of incense, but it was great. Sometimes you do not appreciate what you have until you play another game.

Jungle is superior though, if you have 4-5 high food tiles and at least a 4-5 hills.

Managed to grow to 50. Got a good Edu, 63 or something like that, and Plastics 132, so that's good. I struggled with hammers and money until t120.

I played very well, but made a few small mistakes:
- I had a coal tile, and decided not to improve it as I had a jungle trading post on it, 3 beakers. I thought either a CS or one of the AIs would hit industrialization or that I would gift an improvement, but Lhasa never expanded to the coal tile and Genoa already had a mine on the coal. So no coal, no factory, no specialists, no accelerated production, that hurt a little. Should have improved the tile. That cost me a couple of turns.
- One of my citruses was on forest and not jungle, but I only realized that as I was writing this. Should have improved that tile for the money and the chopping hammers, in the early game when I really needed them.
- Only signed 2 RAs, as I thought I would not have enough money in the end game. I had PLENTY of money, should have borrowed from the AIs and signed as many RAs as I could, 7-8 in 2 rounds. Each RA is approximately 1 turn, Korea a little more, science laggards less.

All in all I could have saved 10 turns I think and I think I could go sub 180. Tempted to try.

@Zenmaster. I used Oxford for Plastics and Rati finisher for Satellites. I agree with your comments about the negative effect of an early use of Rati finisher. Nanotech is too late, if you are bulbing optimally, you will not have enough time to buy the faith GSs and the SS parts, with OCC you need 10 turns to do that and you will finish the tree much faster than that.