G-Minor XLIX

[Salomo]

You can easily nail GL on Prince without even trying
and yes on pantheons you basically need some luck so Boudicca and Halie don't pick what you want...

... and that would be the +1 from rainforest?

Haven't played a culture game on G&K yet, but I do wonder whether a rainforest start with the +1 culture per rainforest pantheon will be better, or whether a desert start (if that exists on the map) with plenty of production will rule. Feeling and past experience from the diplo win gauntlets say its the desert start.

 

[Xger]

nope, first person to meet a religious cs on quick speed gets a pantheon (great design, devs).
you can't get a +religion hut until someone has gotten a pantheon.

Didn't know that a pantheon had to be founded to find faith. That seemed much more likely than finding a religious CS on turn 2 on a rain forest map

 

[vexing]

rainforest is like continents, sometimes alone, sometimes with four buddies

Didn't know that a pantheon had to be founded to find faith. That seemed much more likely than finding a religious CS on turn 2 on a rain forest map

boudicca with 3 forests can get really early too... it's only 6 faith to found pantheon

 

[TyfoonTurk]

missed that one about landmass type

i agree getting GL on prince is easy, but with 9 opponents and jungle tiles you have to put more effort in it than normal

 

[kirbdog]

With rainforest setting, it's arguably easier. When you re-roll enough, you will get a start with a good number of hammers, while many of your opponents will have hammer-starved capitals.

 

[Xger]

With rainforest setting, it's arguably easier. When you re-roll enough, you will get a start with a good number of hammers, while many of your opponents will have hammer-starved capitals.

The hard part I think will be managing a desiable religion set up.

On a different note: is there a G&K culture preimer some where? For some reason when I've tried past gauntlets I end up terribly behind.

 

[kirbdog]

On a different note: is there a G&K culture preimer some where? For some reason when I've tried past gauntlets I end up terribly behind.

It's not written. I've seen people argue for 1 city, 2, 3, 4, and occasionally more. Most seem to favor Tradition, Piety, Freedom, and Liberty if going with 2+ cities, but there isn't consensus on whether to take Patronage, Commerce, or Honor as the fifth. Occasionally someone wanders through and suggests that Rationalism trumps piety for unlocking culture buildings and wonders faster, and on higher difficulties, they might even be right. The occasional madman wants a very wide culture game.

The most common answer seems to involve 2-5 cities, complete Tradition first, Liberty down to reduced policy costs, Tradition down to reduced policy costs, and then completing Freedom as the second complete tree. The second most common answer seems to involve one city and skipping Liberty. Great artist production is probably the most important argument for more than one city, however, with science, gold, terrain-based wonders, and local culture production that pays the marginal cost being the other reasons.

I do wonder if completing Tradition before Freedom is really optimal. Faster growth is good, but is it good enough? Perhaps with a game where you are strong enough on other merits to get to Industrial quickly without a complete Tradition -- Aristocracy, Legalism, and Monarchy obviously rock -- you'd also get a faster time because you'd finish Freedom sooner (before going back to fill in the rest).

Some strategies don't involve puppets, but could Sacred Path and a rainforest map change that?

Given the scaling on Large and Huge maps, they'd probably need their own strategies.

 

[sanabas]

Great artist production is probably the most important argument for more than one city,

I'd actually put science down as an even bigger reason. Plus wonder production at low levels, unit production at higher levels.

My own culture path tends to be first policy of tradition, then Liberty until Piety is available, +culture from excess happiness as the first piety option, especially at lower levels, piety to cheaper policies, liberty to cheaper policies, or possibly filled for a GA, then whatever until freedom unlocks (depends on the game, on how many policies will be unlocked before freedom. options are to finish tradition, open commerce for gold/science, get free friends + more science from patronage), full freedom, then finish off the other trees.

Going full tradition rather than opening Liberty is an option I should experiment more with, the extra growth, particularly in the capital, could make a lot of difference.

 

[kirbdog]

Certainly science is a great reason and the most commonly cited. But if you took away the beakers per turn from additional cities in one game and took away the great artists in another, I believe the game missing the great artists would build utopia later. (I have no real proof of this, naturally... and the point is moot if the lower-tech civ gets stomped. )

 

[sanabas]

My hunch is it's the other way around. The first GA to appear from a secondary city comes relatively late. Being later on opera houses/hermitage/museums I think will make more of a difference. But I'm just guessing.

Certainly the problem I seem to run into in culture games is science being too slow, particularly if I neglect to grab some puppets.

 

[kirbdog]

Good point. Getting the Hermitage and the museums / Louvre and then broadcast towers quickly is very important.

 

[dinanipedro]

Good point. Getting the Hermitage and the museums / Louvre and then broadcast towers quickly is very important.

Is leaving legalism for free museums a good option for this one?

 

[kirbdog]

I think free ampitheaters is winning if you can get enough gold to buy later buildings. It's hard to get enough gold that early in the game, you have plenty else to build, and the 5-to-1 gold/hammer ratio sucks anyway.

 

[sanabas]

Mine frequently go for opera houses, because I'm trying to zoom through liberty for the GA, rather than tradition for the growth. But if you're going for early tradition, they almost certainly need to be for amphitheatres. Only downside is if you've got one from a policy, you don't get anything extra from Petra. Why Petra includes a free amphitheatre, given how powerful it is already, I have no idea.

 

[Mesix]

I find that a good policy approach for Culture victory games is to open Tradition, go through full Liberty (expanding to 4 cities quickly) and then return to finish Tradition later. If you can expand to 4 cities quickly and build Monuments in all of them, then take Legalism before finishing Liberty to get the 4 free Amphitheaters. Alternately, you can finish Liberty and open Piety returning to Legalism after Amphitheaters are built to get 4 free Oepra Houses (and an earlier Hermitage). Other important policy trees are Piety and Freedom with the fifth tree being optional (Honor, Patronage, and Commerce can all have good things depending on game conditions). Technology priorities are somewhat different in a Cultural victory game since you will want to capture many of the Renaissance era wonders which can be ignored in a Science or Diplomatic victory game. A fast culture game should finish in the late Industrial to early Modern Era with no need for late game wonders like Sydney Opera House or Cristo Redentor.

 

[kirbdog]

Cristo Redentor is possible, might shave off a turn. I agree that Sydney is a stretch.

Just finished a lazy 2-city Dutch game in 190-some turns. I am starting to think 2 scouts are needed for the large map, and I am certain 4 or more cities are desired on a large map. And I am converted to the view that the science is the best reason. Once you get to Industrial, everything goes into hyperdrive (no more great prophet spawn with your faith, freedom opens up, museums get built, louvre can be built).

I'm a bit torn on Liberty or Tradition first. I played Liberty first in this game. I am leaning towards Tradition first, even with a monster food civ like the Dutch. You get the science faster, and you don't increase the costs of your artists early on.

Regarding the legalism trick, I think I will use a desert start and unlock it once I have monuments in 4 cities. If I build Petra before researching Drama and Poetry, which is optimal anyway imo, then the capital gets a free ampitheater and free opera house.

I only got a handful of culture from world church (albeit with really bad religion spreading). I think the missionary science might be interesting, as the AI's are pretty fast to get religion even on prince (civ flavor). You can't go rationalism, so every bit helps.

Am I the only one who cares about Temple of Artemis a hair more than Great Library for culture victory? It's hard to get both, and the Great Library slows down the acquisition of "library." I find myself bee-lining Petra tech (even Guilds with the Dutch) and picking up ToA, then Petra, then Hanging Gardens. You end up with 30 surplus food pretty fast, which helps get the city big enough to work the GA tiles and the other good tiles, besides being good for research indirectly. (With the Dutch and a good start, 50+ surplus food and 200+ hammers by Utopia time.)

Simple trick - build workers (or maybe settlers - do the math...) over and over before you build Utopia. Need to start this at least (roughly) a dozen turns in advance. I had 5 turns to build it when it popped up, but this can of course get reduced to 1.

 

[HideInLight]

Simple trick - build workers (or maybe settlers - do the math...) over and over before you build Utopia. Need to start this at least (roughly) a dozen turns in advance. I had 5 turns to build it when it popped up, but this can of course get reduced to 1.

Not sure, but if u mean building workers to get hammer overflow for Utopia, u might want to read this: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=419352

 

[kirbdog]

Not sure, but if u mean building workers to get hammer overflow for Utopia, u might want to read this: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=419352

That's what I mean. In my case, every possible thing was built in 1 turn (200+ hammers), but workers were 46 hammers (quick speed). I think settlers could have been faster though (food into production and the 50% modifier). Handy link, of course.

 

[sanabas]

Regarding the legalism trick, I think I will use a desert start and unlock it once I have monuments in 4 cities. If I build Petra before researching Drama and Poetry, which is optimal anyway imo, then the capital gets a free ampitheater and free opera house.

I am not 100% sure this will work, though I haven't tested, it's purely anecdotal from my own memory. It's possible that if you unlock legalism, all cities are flagged as getting a free amphitheatre when they can, and getting Petra's free amphitheatre won't change that, so when opera houses are unlocked you get nothing.

Am I the only one who cares about Temple of Artemis a hair more than Great Library for culture victory? It's hard to get both, and the Great Library slows down the acquisition of "library." I find myself bee-lining Petra tech (even Guilds with the Dutch) and picking up ToA, then Petra, then Hanging Gardens. You end up with 30 surplus food pretty fast, which helps get the city big enough to work the GA tiles and the other good tiles, besides being good for research indirectly. (With the Dutch and a good start, 50+ surplus food and 200+ hammers by Utopia time.)

That's a long time to wait for NC. Definitely worth trying out though.

Simple trick - build workers (or maybe settlers - do the math...) over and over before you build Utopia. Need to start this at least (roughly) a dozen turns in advance. I had 5 turns to build it when it popped up, but this can of course get reduced to 1.

I thought the overflow was limited to the size of the thing built, so repeated workers won't get you more than 46 stored. Again, I could be wrong.

 

[vexing]

legalism will grant a museum if you build petra before unlocking amphitheaters.
overflow is limited to the higher of your production or the cost of the item. building 12 workers in a row will only subtract 1 turn from your utopia build time.