HideInLight
Warlord
Pacal, Sejong, Nebuchadnezar, Darius are all reasonable choices imo. I like Pacal the best.
G-Minor XLIX
- Thread starter Denniz
- Start date
Pacal, Sejong, Nebuchadnezar, Darius are all reasonable choices imo. I like Pacal the best.
TyfoonTurk
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2011
- Messages
- 250
you just have to build petra before unlocking legalism, doesn't really matter if d&p is researched or not
i'm still trying persia
i'm still trying persia
I started a game as Polynesia. I was able to get some very good
in the Classical/Medieval eras to just about finish 3 policy trees before reaching the Renaissance. The problem is that I lost some of the key wonders since my technologies were not coming as fast as with Korea. I saved the game at about turn 120, but I don't know if I will get back to the game since it isn't looking like a sub 200 game at this point.Perhaps I will try a game with Babylon.
TyfoonTurk
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2011
- Messages
- 250
did somebody already place a benchmark?
170?
170?
Mongolia?
I misremembered the tradition opener amount, thinking it was +4.1
2
3
Total 6
Perhaps you are thinking of 7
How is the turn 13 empire closer to all of those? Especially citizens considering landed elite could hit turn 15 if you go straight to it.
You can unlock legalism between building the monument and petra but before Drama and Poetry and it still gives the capitol a free opera house at Acoustics.
I also am unsure why people are holding off on legalism until settling cities; getting landed elite ASAP has been a primary goal for me (my policies go tradition opener, legalism, landed elite then liberty). Settling a city with a free monument to start just means building or buying the others.
As for a bench mark, sub 190 will be top 3, perhaps even sub 170.
Come to think of it, that sounds a bit better than what I've been doing. I've been too fixated on the delaying legalism thing. Early on, science and production are paramount, so growth is good, and monarchy would also help as I can see happiness problems early on.
I've completed this challenge twice, playing Arabia both times. The first game I finished on turn 184, the second on turn 180.
Arabia's unique building (the Bazaar) provides one extra copy of each improved luxury resource near a city. This gives you an enormous amount of cash (from luxury sales) to spend on amphitheatres, museums and broadcast towers as soon as they become available. It also enables you to ally with cultural city states as soon as you meet them.
The order in which I selected social policies was as follows:
(1) I completed the entire Tradition tree;
(2) I then moved into the Liberty tree, just until Representation (for the 33% reduction in the cost of social policies);
(3) Next, I went into the Piety tree, just until Religious Tolerance (for the 10% reduction in the cost of social policies);
(4) I then completed the entire Freedom tree;
(5) Finally, I finished the Liberty, Piety and Commerce trees.
The key characteristics that I wanted for my start location were:
(1) Desert start (in order to build Petra);
(2) Capital located next to a mountain (in order to build an observatory for the 50% science bonus);
(3) Capital located on a reasonably long river (in order to get the production benefit of a hydro plant);
(4) Lots of desert hills around the capital (at least five hills);
(5) At least three luxuries within the capital's three-tile perimeter.
Arabia has a start bias for desert which minimises the number of times you need to reroll to get a decent desert start.
I spent a lot of time rerolling for marble within the capital's three-tile perimeter (for the 15% wonder bonus), but I don't think that getting marble is critical because in my first game I had marble and finished on turn 184 but in my second game I did not have marble and finished on turn 180. In both games I completed 95% of the wonders available. The earlier finish in the second game is partly explained by the fact that my capital in the second game had 12 desert hill tiles (four of which were next to rivers and another three were sheep pastures) whereas my capital in the first game only had six desert hill tiles (two of which were next to rivers). When you have Petra, those additional desert hill tiles really add up to a substantial benefit.
My start build was two scouts followed by a shrine and then the Great Library.
For religion, I chose Desert Folklore, Tithe, Cathedrals, Religious Art, Religious Texts. In both games I was the third civilization to found a pantheon. Desert Folklore is so powerful that in both games I founded my religion and enhanced it before any other religion was founded.
In my first game I built five cities. I had three cultural city states as allies (I only discovered three on the map before the game ended). Peak culture per turn was 1,187.
In my second game I built four cities. I had four cultural city states as allies. Peak culture per turn was 1,205.
Both games were played on a Pangaea rainforest map.
Arabia's unique building (the Bazaar) provides one extra copy of each improved luxury resource near a city. This gives you an enormous amount of cash (from luxury sales) to spend on amphitheatres, museums and broadcast towers as soon as they become available. It also enables you to ally with cultural city states as soon as you meet them.
The order in which I selected social policies was as follows:
(1) I completed the entire Tradition tree;
(2) I then moved into the Liberty tree, just until Representation (for the 33% reduction in the cost of social policies);
(3) Next, I went into the Piety tree, just until Religious Tolerance (for the 10% reduction in the cost of social policies);
(4) I then completed the entire Freedom tree;
(5) Finally, I finished the Liberty, Piety and Commerce trees.
The key characteristics that I wanted for my start location were:
(1) Desert start (in order to build Petra);
(2) Capital located next to a mountain (in order to build an observatory for the 50% science bonus);
(3) Capital located on a reasonably long river (in order to get the production benefit of a hydro plant);
(4) Lots of desert hills around the capital (at least five hills);
(5) At least three luxuries within the capital's three-tile perimeter.
Arabia has a start bias for desert which minimises the number of times you need to reroll to get a decent desert start.
I spent a lot of time rerolling for marble within the capital's three-tile perimeter (for the 15% wonder bonus), but I don't think that getting marble is critical because in my first game I had marble and finished on turn 184 but in my second game I did not have marble and finished on turn 180. In both games I completed 95% of the wonders available. The earlier finish in the second game is partly explained by the fact that my capital in the second game had 12 desert hill tiles (four of which were next to rivers and another three were sheep pastures) whereas my capital in the first game only had six desert hill tiles (two of which were next to rivers). When you have Petra, those additional desert hill tiles really add up to a substantial benefit.
My start build was two scouts followed by a shrine and then the Great Library.
For religion, I chose Desert Folklore, Tithe, Cathedrals, Religious Art, Religious Texts. In both games I was the third civilization to found a pantheon. Desert Folklore is so powerful that in both games I founded my religion and enhanced it before any other religion was founded.
In my first game I built five cities. I had three cultural city states as allies (I only discovered three on the map before the game ended). Peak culture per turn was 1,187.
In my second game I built four cities. I had four cultural city states as allies. Peak culture per turn was 1,205.
Both games were played on a Pangaea rainforest map.
TyfoonTurk
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2011
- Messages
- 250
so if you are building petra and unlock legalism, you get a free opera house?
i think your priorities policywise should be the two culture-cost reducing policies. getting landed elite delays those.
i think your priorities policywise should be the two culture-cost reducing policies. getting landed elite delays those.
HideInLight
Warlord
Hm I didnt go for Liberty at all untill way later (after full Tradition and full Piety while waiting for Industrial era).
Different leaders, different strategies I guess, but I would probably went full Tradition first with most leaders anyway
Different leaders, different strategies I guess, but I would probably went full Tradition first with most leaders anyway
If you have a monument and unlock legalism the game waits until the next tech with a culture building is researched to give the free one. If you have petra up before you research Drama and Poetry you will already have an ampitheatre so the game still waits, in this case for Acoustics and an opera house (however if you are playing a civ leader Siam that has a building between D&P and Acoustics that gives culture the free one will be that, so Siam with that set up means a free Wat, iirc)
The liberty policy only reduces costs if you settle cities, so if you wait until after you adopt it to settle it doesn't matter when you get it. My best attempt so far I didn't found a 2nd second city until turn 120. There was a few reasons for this but I was happy with the game.
After 3 tries (one unfinished), I am inclined to think that expanding early is better than expanding late. More cities means that they develop faster and have higher 
for more 
. More cities also means that you can capture more of the wonders, especially in the Med/Ren eras when there are a lot of desirable wonders to be had. More wonders also means more from the Freedom tree which makes a huge difference in the late game.
for more . More cities also means that you can capture more of the wonders, especially in the Med/Ren eras when there are a lot of desirable wonders to be had. More wonders also means more from the Freedom tree which makes a huge difference in the late game.HideInLight
Warlord
I tried going 3 cities and I tried playing it with 1 city only and the latter option has proven slightly better for me so far (with Pacal at least).
The science was pretty much the same for the most important part of the games and by the time the extra science with more cities started to make a difference, it was really not that needed anymore. Yes, I got Cristo Redendor, while I did not get it with 1 city, but I am not even sure if it shaved off a single turn. And even if it did, I probably lost more turns by having more expensive social policies, so it seems to me that 1 city is superior to more cities, at least with my strategy. Well, perhaps a strategy where you can get your 2nd city (or more) up and running super fast, can be even better, but I havent tried that yet.
The science was pretty much the same for the most important part of the games and by the time the extra science with more cities started to make a difference, it was really not that needed anymore. Yes, I got Cristo Redendor, while I did not get it with 1 city, but I am not even sure if it shaved off a single turn. And even if it did, I probably lost more turns by having more expensive social policies, so it seems to me that 1 city is superior to more cities, at least with my strategy. Well, perhaps a strategy where you can get your 2nd city (or more) up and running super fast, can be even better, but I havent tried that yet.
HideInLight
Warlord
After 3 tries (one unfinished), I am inclined to think that expanding early is better than expanding late. More cities means that they develop faster and have higher
I believe you can "capture" pretty much all the wonders that matter with just 1 city. In my best game so far I built 20 world wonders (+ all the national wonders), which I believe were all the wonders available in a non-coastal city except Stonehenge, Great Mosque and Himeji castle.
But yea, definately agree that if you are going to play with more cities, then get them up asap. In fact, dont even bother getting more cities later on unless for a specific reason (like getting coal for example).
Giving up the second city is giving up two great artists (sure, maybe only one with the Maya). The culture generated in the city itself is not bad as long as you get at least one wonder there. With 41+ golden age culture per turn after Reformation and Opera Houses,* or 82+ golden age culture per turn after Radio,** the value of the culture per turn itself, including the value of extra great artists, will be significantly more than the 6.7% increase in culture costs. This makes the science benefit of a second city "free" from the perspective of pursuing a cultural victory.
* (1 Liberty + 2 Monument + 3 Ampitheater + 4 Opera House + 3 Cathedral + 9 Artists) = 22 * 1.58 Sistine Chapel and Reformation * 1.2 Golden Age = 41.7
** (1 Liberty + 2 Monument + 3 Ampitheater + 4 Opera House + 3 Cathedral + 5 Museum + 3 Broadcast Tower + 15 Artists) = 36 * 1.91 Sistine Chapel and Reformation and Broadcast Tower * 1.2 Golden Age = 82.5
I don't count the culture from the wonder because there's a good argument that this is actually a negative amount. A typical 3 culture wonder (1 on the wonder and 2 from constitution) will be worth an additional 3 * 2.61 * 1.2 minus 3 * 1.91 * 1.2 culture in the capital, i.e. 2.5 more culture per turn, if you have Alhambra and the Hermitage.
The costs of a second city are lower on a large map than on a standard map, where they add 10% to the costs with Representation.
* (1 Liberty + 2 Monument + 3 Ampitheater + 4 Opera House + 3 Cathedral + 9 Artists) = 22 * 1.58 Sistine Chapel and Reformation * 1.2 Golden Age = 41.7
** (1 Liberty + 2 Monument + 3 Ampitheater + 4 Opera House + 3 Cathedral + 5 Museum + 3 Broadcast Tower + 15 Artists) = 36 * 1.91 Sistine Chapel and Reformation and Broadcast Tower * 1.2 Golden Age = 82.5
I don't count the culture from the wonder because there's a good argument that this is actually a negative amount. A typical 3 culture wonder (1 on the wonder and 2 from constitution) will be worth an additional 3 * 2.61 * 1.2 minus 3 * 1.91 * 1.2 culture in the capital, i.e. 2.5 more culture per turn, if you have Alhambra and the Hermitage.
The costs of a second city are lower on a large map than on a standard map, where they add 10% to the costs with Representation.
