G-Minor XLVII

Well, you only have limited amount of GS & freebies, so Astronomy is definitely out of the question for reasons Vexing mentioned above. The only question is - plastics or globalization. Maybe, with some heavy faith accumulation it is possible to bulb plastics with Oxford and still have enough GS for a final push. Got to test this, when i get the time.

As far as i know it's a good place to discuss strategy too ;). We do have a clear goal & settings in front of us, as opposed to the thread you referred to.
 
Could you please elaborate on why Astronomy is out of the question? I don't see the reasons you're alluding to, just a comment that "you definitely want to save up for a push post research labs," without explaining why.

So why is it better to cut 14 turns off the end of your game, when you could cut the same 14 turns out before Astronomy and get to everything important sooner? Same goes for bulbs: Why is it better to cut out 7-8 turns at the end, when you could cut out the same 7-8 turns before schools or labs?

I have seen one plausible reason: Early jumps in science are offset by (lack of) population growth. For example, suppose you bulb Scientific Theory and save 7 turns. Now you have schools 7 turns earlier, but you also have a smaller city than you would 7 turns later. It's a small effect, but it slows you down a little. (The same effect still happens at the end of the game, it's just that you don't care because the game is over.)

But how big is that effect? Is it significant, or does it get lost in the noise? Is it significant enough to justify delaying Rationalism by 14 turns?
 
Just did a T-201 game, could have been T-193 - T-194 if I didnt butcher the end :/ Got UN in 2 turns instead of 1 with GE because I didnt realise golden age was ending (could have easily switched to production instead of science) and mainly forgot to plan rationalism finisher ahead enough, so had to pick another SP and wait another 8 turns for the next, 6 of which were pure waiting :/ Also didnt get coal until very late in the game, when it barely helped.

Anyway, seems like planting 1st GS is definately worth it, maybe even the 2nd one.


Btw, I tried a pretty expensive way to get to coal earlier, which was to declare war on an allied CS with coal, pillage their coal tile, then ally them again and thought they would let me improve their coal for 200g, but didnt work. Just to save you the bad experience if anyone had the same idea :) Dont really understand why it didnt work though...
 
Because, with combined power of 6 GS, rationalism finisher and oxford you are able to clear all techs few turns after reaching plastics. You start slow, but finish fast..

By, the way, i do bulb plastics, as i mentioned before.

But maybe i am wrong, test bulbing Astro, like you propose, and tell us about your findings.
 
I like to use Oxford for Plastics and the Rationalism finisher for the final push. If timed right, Rationalism can get both Telecommunications and Globalization on the same turn. The timing ends up being about the same as using the Rationalism finisher to pop both Rocketry and Satellites in a science victory which I like to do as well.

I can see the benefit to using Oxford for Astronomy as well. Especially in an OCC game with a mountain next to the one and only city. Getting that Observatory earlier can make a big difference. The +3 :c5science: base snowballing for a longer period of time might also factor into an argument for building Oxford earlier.
 
HideInLight said:
Btw, I tried a pretty expensive way to get to coal earlier, which was to declare war on an allied CS with coal, pillage their coal tile, then ally them again and thought they would let me improve their coal for 200g, but didnt work. Just to save you the bad experience if anyone had the same idea :) Dont really understand why it didnt work though...
Click to expand...

It's the same basic problem: You can't improve the resource for them if they haven't discovered the tech, and they don't get the tech until two players know it. Unfortunately, there's no way to give them the tech early, just like you can't trade techs with other players in Civ 5.

Mesix said:
I can see the benefit to using Oxford for Astronomy as well. Especially in an OCC game with a mountain next to the one and only city. Getting that Observatory earlier can make a big difference. The +3 :c5science: base snowballing for a longer period of time might also factor into an argument for building Oxford earlier.
Click to expand...

Regarding the "when to bulb" discussion, I created a thread in Strategy & Tips for folks who'd rather not clutter up this one. It's a bit tl;dr – short version is, I think "bulb as late as possible" is mathematically ideal, but sometimes there are overriding concerns. The basic problem is that when you cut a tech short, you aren't actually "snowballing," you're just shorting yourself on population growth, which is critical to science.
 
BWS said:
It's the same basic problem: You can't improve the resource for them if they haven't discovered the tech, and they don't get the tech until two players know it. Unfortunately, there's no way to give them the tech early, just like you can't trade techs with other players in Civ 5.
Click to expand...

No its not the same basic problem. Since I pillaged the tile, they dont have the resource improved = it should be possible to give them a gift to improve the resource. Yet, it didnt work :/
 
Until they discover the coal tech, they don't have a resource to improve!

To clarify: You can only use the resource improvement gift if the city-state can already see the resource, and they can't see it until they discover the tech. You can't give them the tech to see it.
 
I think it's not just 'them', there is a minimum amount of civs required to discover industrialization (2-3?) in order to improve that resource for CS. CS science is somehow tied to leading civs, i noticed. How else would they stay at par (scientifically) with civilizations with far bigger amount of cities?

EDIT: Ah yes, what BWS said :).
 
BWS said:
Until they discover the coal tech, they don't have a resource to improve!

To clarify: You can only use the resource improvement gift if the city-state can already see the resource, and they can't see it until they discover the tech. You can't give them the tech to see it.
Click to expand...

No, its not true. You can improve a resource as soon as you get the tech, doesnt matter if they have it. But its only possible if they dont have the needed improvement on the tile in question yet.
 
BWS said:
Could you please elaborate on why Astronomy is out of the question?
Click to expand...

oxford for astronomy in this game has potential, though astronomy should only be about 9-10 turns, definitely not 14. you could potentially end up going directly through rationalism post tradition, though there it's hard to say if abusing aesthetics is a better route

HideInLight said:
No its not the same basic problem. Since I pillaged the tile, they dont have the resource improved = it should be possible to give them a gift to improve the resource. Yet, it didnt work :/
Click to expand...

i tried the same thing with no luck; i thought in the past i'd improved a tile post barbarian pillaging. it sure does suck to have to throw out a game going well so late because of no accessible coal.
 
I think I need to get the Wonders of the Ancient World DLC, seems like you guys keep going for Temple of Artemis. Also, which opponents do you guys feel is best? I've been sticking with ones who don't go after wonders and who also generate a lot of cash, like Askia and Attila. I've been avoiding ones like Gandhi, since he goes for things like the HG, but on Warlord I probably don't need to worry about it.
 
T210 with a decent Petra/mountain start location, but no lux resources to sell. I didn't have the timing quite right at the end on the social policies and techs, so it could have been better by 3-5 turns but that's about it.

The basic strategy discussed seems pretty solid...so this one boils down mostly to luck: Petra start, huts, WLTKD growth, geo location for easy of religion spread, and CS draw/quests. All luck factors.

I thought lack of coal/aluminum would be a game killer, but if you have a GE to rush the UN, I guess it would only add 2-3 turns max.

I enjoyed this one. I wish Petra wasn't so OP that you need it for a competitive shot. Maybe someone will put in a good date without it. :hmm:

cas
 
Hi guys, reading the topic I gathered that a desert start is ideal, but I seem to never start on desert. Should I check "disable start bias" or something?
 
cas said:
I thought lack of coal/aluminum would be a game killer, but if you have a GE to rush the UN, I guess it would only add 2-3 turns max.
Click to expand...

coal is for planned economy in the order tree: +25% science from factory. it's necessary for optimal time
 
zehcoutinho said:
Hi guys, reading the topic I gathered that a desert start is ideal, but I seem to never start on desert. Should I check "disable start bias" or something?
Click to expand...

check "hot"
maya doesn't have a start bias, so disabling that shouldn't matter unless arabia (with a desert start bias) is one of your opponents
 
Thanks vexing and BWS for the tips, I got a desert mountain start, with 4 flood plains, 3 salt (2 on desert and one on a forested grasslands), an oasis and lots of desert hills, but only two with irrigation, and thought it was a good start. The game didn't go as well though, as I'm very far from the turn targets other people got. Another thing, I saw people saying that a 700 bpt is good, and I'm wondering when should that be reached, and how. Also I'd like some tips on SP choosing. Sorry If I'm asking too much, but I'm a more casual player and just recently started to want to get more competitive, and this is the first gauntlet I'm trying. I would really appreciate any help. Thanks!
 
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