[NFP] Gaesatae is the real negative Unit

I think Gaesatae have a very nice role on higher difficulties - they help fend off an AI that gets to swordsman and/or crossbowmen before you do. They're also very useful when fending off an AI with an early UU of their own - eagle warriors and war carts aren't so scary anymore. I like them.

They may be more expensive but that also gets you extra culture at a point in the game when that's pretty hard to come by.
 
Have managed to play two Gaul Games into the late Classical/start of Medieval Eras, and Gaesetae are extremely useful but not overwhelming.
Whether or not they are 'cheap to build' I find to be utterly irrelevent: the Gauls normally will have high production because of the other pluses you get from Mines: I had no problem at all turning out a Gaesetae every 4 - 6 turns when I needed to.

They are Very effective against both enemy units and cities up until the late Classical Era, as long as you don't send them out alone. Even against Scythian Light Cavalry swarms and Horse Archers, they held their own by being 3 - 4 abreast with archers behind them: + 6 - 8 combat factor each and Archers firing in support at another + 4 - 6 points shreds Ancient or Classical armies: they chopped the Scythians right off their horsies, and absolutely stomped Gorgo's Hoplites in my second game.

And as I posted earlier, they romp through Barb Camps like they were Riverdancing on collective Barbarian Heads: it's almost too easy.

Not being able to upgrade to Swordsmen is a Malus, but not an extreme one. By the time you get to the point where you want to build/upgrade to Swordsmen, most of the Gaesetae have at least one promotion, which will either make them harder to hit with ranged fire (Tortoise) or gives them a +7 versus other Melee Units (Battlecry). With their +10 against stronger units, that gives them 37 versus the Swordsman's 36 not even counting any adjacencies/formation bonuses: they can hold their own into the Medieval Era handily.

I find it mildly amusing that people are complaining that Gaesetae are less useful in the Medieval Era, since there have been numerous Threads devoted to the 'problem' of attacking cities successfully in the Medieval Era with no 'medieval' Melee Units. One suggestion was to 'turtle' during the Medieval Era and then go back into Domination Mode once you have gunpowder units. That's precisely what the Gaesetae appear to be designed for: Fragile during the Medieval/Crossbow and Knight Era, but a ready source of Musketmen once you get Gunpowder.

Game-Winning Unit? Probably not, unless you manage to win the game by the end of the Classical Era. But very useful from the time they are available (Start of Game) until the end of the Classical Era, and by no means useless thereafter. I'm going to try to continue my second game this weekend, and see if they play out in the late Medieval/Renaissance Eras the way I suspect they will . . .
 
In my partial Gaul game I was able to use Agoge and churn those out every 2 turns tho, and that was standard speed.
 
I didn't even notice Agoge not working for Gaesatae due to my high production, but that has to be a bug. In spite of that, I still think the Gaesatae are a benefit to Gaul. You can't upgrade them to Swordsmen, but on the other hand, can hold its own against Swordsmen. I also like that you get one right away when starting the game, meaning you have an excellent unit for clearing barbarian encampments right away.
 
What I didn't realize at first is that all combat units count for the +2 bonus from King of the Eburones, including enemy and neutral unis.
 
@Tech Osen Yes, this is a big part of the reason why King of the Eburones is so great, and it helps the Gaesatae a great deal. Against any unit with a higher base strength, the Gaesatae will hit for a minimum of 32, as it gets +2 for being adjacent to the unit it is attacking. Getting a couple of units behind it pushes that to 36, which is Swordsman strength.

Another interesting thing to consider, is that combat XP depends in part on the relative base strengths of the units. So, in the example where a Gaesate is fighting a Swordsman, and its ability combined with King of Eburones is bringing the Gaesatae up to equal strength, the Gaesatae will still gain XP as if it is fighting a unit which is almost twice as strong, and the Swordsman will receive XP as if it is fighting a unit which is almost half its strength.

This is a bit of a hidden buff for the Gaesatae, which it gains for punching above its weight class.
 
It's a weird unit that has a tougher fight against a Scout than a Spearman, against an Archer than a Crossbowman. But that's what makes them interesting to play.

The biggest feature/flaw I've found is that you look weak. Your military strength looks like you have a bunch of bad Warriors and other AI see you as an easy target. Then they charge in, you dogpile their advance and counterattack for glory and profit.
 
Just checked. Agoge is working for Gaesatae. Number of turns to produce them went down from 6 to 4 after plugging in Agoge.(10 production in city).
Must admit I did think that even when I saw the OPs post. The Gaesatae is more expensive than a standard warrior so it being around the same amount of turns to produce a spearman sounds about right.
 
Something nobody has mentioned yet, but while we discuss the pros and cons of the Gaesetae, note that the +2 adjacency bonus for every adjacent unit, enemy or allied, applies to all Gaullic melee, anti-cav, and ranged units. As I found out this morning, that means when you do get your Gaesetae promoted to Musketmen, they go from being barely average Medieval Units to Killer Rabbits of the Renaissance. A Gaullic musketman with an enemy in front, a unit on either side and a crossbowman of two behind him attacks at +10. I took a Free City that had been Free for over 70 turns (AI Germany built his 3rd or 4th city a third of a continent away from the rest of his Civ, so of course it flipped as soon as he hit a Dark Age, and nobody was exerting any pressure on it, so it stayed Independent for the entire Classical Era, churning out units). Once they got adjacent to the city, three Musket-carrying Torc-wearing Gauls took it in one turn, with support from two crossbowmen - and the city had Ancient Walls, but 2 crossbows and one Musket attack was enough to suppress them completely.

So, playing Gaul you are going to be playing in a distinctive Cycle: Ancient and early Classical Gauls will play Barbarian Reaper and be very dangerous to 'ordinary' enemy armies: DO NOT try to fight Gaesetae with Spearmen, because you are severely penalized by the Gaesetae's and the Gaullic bonuses: even a small force of Gauls will be coming at you with Gaesetae at +40 strength. Other losses being equal, they will one-shot a Spearman - even Hoplites can't stand up to them for more than a single turn.

Then the Furor Gallicus goes dormant for the late Classical (Swordsmen) and Medieval Eras. I played nice like you wouldn't believe in my continuation game today: established Embassies, made trades, carefully did not settle next to anyone and generally Gladhanded in all directions.

Until I got Niter and Gunpowder, and now it's back to No More Mister Nice Gaul.
- or maybe not. While the Gauls have the capability to Romp and Stomp in the Renaissance and later (the adjacency stays constant at +2 per adjacent unit, though, so relatively the Bonus gets weaker vis-a-vis the basic unit strengths: It's a Killer in the early game, only a Maimer later, and probably just a Slap in the Civ Face by the late game, but never completely insignificant) having built up a Cultural and or Diplomatic/Religious 'base' while being Pacifistic for an Era and a half, by the Renaissance they can be set up to go in almost any direction they want: Oppidum-based Production leading to building Spaceship parts, Cultural from both the usual suspects and their Unit building, or religious if the requisite Districts and buildings have been built during the Era of Peace, Joy and Roast Boar Dinner Parties.

Overall, Gaesetae included, Gaul is a very flexible Civ and very interesting to play - once you understand that its characteristics require a certain finesse to get past the Late Classical/Medieval Interim Eras, it has bonuses that can usefully be applied to Domination, Cultural, or Scientific victories almost equally well.
 
As far as I know Era-based policies are ineffective against Warriors, Scouts, Slingers and any of the uniques because they are not. per definition, part of an Era. I've seen this be a thing with production boosters. Either that or I'm mixing it up but I remember struggling with granting a production bonus to Scouts by using the tags.

Scouts (recon upgrade line) does not benefit from Agoge.

It's a weird unit that has a tougher fight against a Scout than a Spearman, against an Archer than a Crossbowman. But that's what makes them interesting to play.

1v1 fight on flat terrain:
Gaesatae 22CS attacks Scout 10CS (+12CS)
Gaesatae 42CS attacks Spearman 25CS (+17CS)
Gaesatae 22CS defends Scout 10CS (+12CS)
Gaesatae 42CS defends Spearman 25CS (+17CS)
Gaesatae does indeed do better vs a Spearman than a Scout

Gaesatae 22CS attacks Archer 15CS (+7CS)
Gaesatae 32CS attacks Crossbowman 30CS (+2CS)
Gaesatae 20CS defends Archer 25CS (-5CS) (non-adjacent tile)
Gaesatae 30CS defends Crossbowman 40CS (-10CS) (non-adjacent tile)
Gaesatae does worse against a Crossbowman than an Archer

Warrior 20CS attacks Archer 15CS (+5CS)
Warrior 20CS attacks Crossbowman 30CS (-10CS)
Warrior 20CS defends Archer 25CS (-5CS)
Warrior 20CS defends Crossbowman 40CS (-20CS)
Gaesatae does relatively better against a Crossbowman (vs an Archer) than a Warrior would in the same situation.

EDIT: Added Eburones ability
 
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It's a weird unit that has a tougher fight against a Scout than a Spearman, against an Archer than a Crossbowman. But that's what makes them interesting to play.

To expand:

BASE Gaesatae (20) vs Scout (10) = 22 vs 10. +12 advantage.
BASE Gaesatae (20) vs Spear (25) = 42 vs 25. +17 advantage.

If it were normal non-Gallic warriors it would be 20 vs 10 = +10 and 30 vs 25 = +5.

So it's not as though a Gaesatae suffers against Scouts... it still performs +2 better against Scouts than a non-Gallic warrior in the same situation. Their superior performance against Spearman is just the abilities working as intended and stacking in their favor (ie melee bonus against anti-cav).
 
Scouts (recon upgrade line) does not benefit from Agoge.



1v1 fight on flat terrain:
Gaesatae 22CS attacks Scout 10CS (+12CS)
Gaesatae 42CS attacks Spearman 25CS (+17CS)
Gaesatae 22CS defends Scout 10CS (+12CS)
Gaesatae 42CS defends Spearman 25CS (+17CS)
Gaesatae does indeed do better vs a Spearman than a Scout

Gaesatae 22CS attacks Archer 15CS (+7CS)
Gaesatae 32CS attacks Crossbowman 30CS (+2CS)
Gaesatae 20CS defends Archer 25CS (-5CS) (non-adjacent tile)
Gaesatae 30CS defends Crossbowman 40CS (-10CS) (non-adjacent tile)
Gaesatae does worse against a Crossbowman than an Archer

Warrior 20CS attacks Archer 15CS (+5CS)
Warrior 20CS attacks Crossbowman 30CS (-10CS)
Warrior 20CS defends Archer 25CS (-5CS)
Warrior 20CS defends Crossbowman 40CS (-20CS)
Gaesatae does relatively better against a Crossbowman (vs an Archer) than a Warrior would in the same situation.

EDIT: Added Eburones ability

Given its 60 prod cost and Agoge ineffectiveness(so equivalent to 90-cost unit with Agoge or Maneuver), it actually costs more than double of a warrior, more than a horseman, and as much as a swordsman.
 
Many people have confirmed that Agoge works on them, how about you re-check yours again? Insisting on false information will do no good for us.

Start with Gaul, start on classical era so that we can have agoge instantly.
Spoiler :

Screen Shot 2020-09-27 at 3.16.15 PM.png


The city has 6 production
Spoiler :

Screen Shot 2020-09-27 at 3.19.27 PM.png


Then we start building Gaesatae
Spoiler :

Screen Shot 2020-09-27 at 3.18.44 PM.png


1 turns later we only get 6 production, the +50% doesn't work.
Spoiler :

Screen Shot 2020-09-27 at 3.19.53 PM.png


What if we build an archer?
Spoiler :

Screen Shot 2020-09-27 at 3.20.03 PM.png


And 1 turn later,
Spoiler :


Screen Shot 2020-09-27 at 3.20.22 PM.png


This time we get exactly 6*1.5=9 productions, it works on Archers!

You can check yourself.

I don't know who the "many people" you refer to are, and where's your evidence to support your(or their?) "confirm". You know, repeating a lie 100 times doesn't make it true.
Moderator Action: Please do not accuse other posters of lying just because they have different experiences from you --NZ
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

I've provided evidence on #1. And now I'm providing that evidence again. If you don't provide your evidence I'll ignore you in future. Disinformation correct information by claiming them "false information" is not acceptable for me.
 
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It looks like Gaesatae are tagged correctly as melee units, but I can’t recall where what era a unit belongs to is defined. It may not have the correctly ancient tag.
Lily, does Feudal contract affect them either? If it’s due to no era tag than feudal contract and grand armee won’t work on them either.
 
@Lily_Lancer I think that it's an old bug related Classical era starts and Ancient era units. I can't confirm at the moment though.
Have you tried it with an Ancient era start?

But archer is also an ancient era unit? If it doesn't work on ancient units it shouldn't work for archers I guess? Can you describe the bug more clearly?
 
It looks like Gaesatae are tagged correctly as melee units, but I can’t recall where what era a unit belongs to is defined. It may not have the correctly ancient tag.
Lily, does Feudal contract affect them either? If it’s due to no era tag than feudal contract and grand armee won’t work on them either.
Units don't have Era tags as such, but belong to the Era of their Prereqs. Starting units like the Warrior and it's replacements are NULL, but are coded as Ancient Era.

**Edit**

I think that it's an old bug related Classical era starts and Ancient era units.
I didn't read this earlier, but yeah this is an old bug. Agoge works properly with Ancient Era starts, but not Classical Era starts with units that have a NULL prereq.
 
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