Galleass

[Stalker0]

So in general, I find the Galleass to underperform in pretty much every scenario I use them in. And it comes down to the simple fact that you have a ship that cannot move into deep water vs a ship that can (caravel). Its basically playing checkers vs chess, the caravel's maneuverability is so much greater than the Galleass, and can focus damage so much more easily with that maneuverability, that the Galleass has no chance to compete.

Its stats are decent enough, but without a deep water option I don't think the Galleass can ever truly shine.

So the obvious thought would be to just give it deep water, but then the caravel loses its important niche as the premier world exploring and scouting vessel. Ideally we would want to keep that. So I propose a few key changes to try and get the cake and eat it too.

• Speed drops from 4 to 3.
• Gain Deep Ocean travel
• Remove move after attack, gain range 2.

So effectively we are shifting the unit into a slower frigate, instead of a faster dromon. In doing so, we ensure that the caravel remains the superior scout and exploration ship (especially with navigation promotions). But we give the Galleass the ability to go where the caravel goes, and fight it on the same ground.

 

[DukeBrani]

• Gain Deep Ocean travel

On discovery of Guilds (i.e., when the unit becomes available) or on discovery of Compass (i.e., when Caravel becomes available)?

 

[youngsteve]

On discovery of Guilds (i.e., when the unit becomes available) or on discovery of Compass (i.e., when Caravel becomes available)?

I don't know why they cannot appear together on discovery of Compass, like Dromon & Trireme do under sailing. Always seemed strange Galleass became available on discovering Guilds.

 

[2506]

I don't have a problem with the galleass' capabilities. 4 movement with move-after-shoot makes them unusually flexible.You just need them in numbers... which happens to be how they were often used historically. Even if you don't do that, they serve a situational role, like ranged horse do. They are very good at softening walled cities for capture, and decent against unenhanced castles.

I can't follow Stalker0's reasoning (don't take away the caravel's role, but then... take it away). It doesn't really matter, though, because I hate the idea of galleasses having deep-water capability. That's not what a galleass is, and it's not how naval battles were fought at the time, anyway.

But if change is being considered, and the concern is being outmatched by caravels in one-on-one fights, then I would consider boosting its CS vs naval.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Why are Galleass more expensive than Caravels, 175 to 160? Should be other way around. I agree with changing them to 3 Move, 2 Range Units. I'm neutral on the Ocean movement.

I don't find Galleass out matched, on the defense. Lacking the 2 Range makes their offensive capabilities lacking, when compared to Frigates. Caravels don't necessarily have CS to push into a port on their own, unlike Ironclads.

 

[Ranslee]

I think it's interesting that Galleas and Caravels are in separate techs. They (Galleas) do feel quite weak in their current form, though.

I think it's too early in the game to allow ocean ranged units, but 3 move/2 range sounds good. This makes them better at taking coastal cities and coastal support but you still can't wage full-on cross-continent warfare until mid-to-late renaissance.

 

[DeAnno]

I've had some success using Galleass as sort of a stacking extra ranged unit to defend the area immediately around coastal cities in its time. You can even put some forts nearby to stack more Galleass in the area and put siege or ranged on top of the forts. Melee ships might attack to challenge you but if they do and you have enough siege stacked around the neighborhood they will die after their attack.

 

[vyyt]

I am fine with Galleass as they are now, but we could also make them obolete earlier and frigates appear 1 tech before Corvettes. This would shorten the span of the Galleass VS Caravel period.

If anything, I would lean to 2-range, not move-after-shoot for the sake of consistency.

 

[2506]

I think it's too early in the game to allow ocean ranged units, but 3 move/2 range sounds good. This makes them better at taking coastal cities and coastal support but you still can't wage full-on cross-continent warfare until mid-to-late renaissance.

I am fine with Galleass as they are now, but we could also make them obolete earlier and frigates appear 1 tech before Corvettes. This would shorten the span of the Galleass VS Caravel period.

If anything, I would lean to 2-range, not move-after-shoot for the sake of consistency.

I agree with vyyt's overall post. My only question is what's the difference between 4/1 with move-after-shoot, and 3/2 without it? I think I would choose 4/1 for the added mobility. Am I missing something?

 

[Stalker0]

I agree with vyyt's overall post. My only question is what's the difference between 4/1 with move-after-shoot, and 3/2 without it? I think I would choose 4/1 for the added mobility. Am I missing something?

You are correct that 4/1 M.A.S. is generally superior to 3/2, especially with the limitations of shallow water, so you need that speed to shuffle things around. The only reason I suggested it was to counterbalance the big buff of giving them deep water, but it would be a nerf to just change it straight up.

 

[Rekk]

If you change it to 3/2 coast only, then it would be able to project further out into the ocean ... That's about it.

 

[corps_of_discovery]

I played a recent game as Portugal where I managed to get the Great Lighthouse. Normally I wait until frigates come online to build up my navy, but with Portugal's UU (Nau) I built a decent number of Galleass. The combination of high mobility, limit to coastal water, vulnerability to melee attacks, and range 1 was a *lot* of fun to play because it prompted interesting tactical maneuvering that is often missing from later naval battles.

I'd prefer keeping the no deep ocean restriction but maybe increase the number of movement points or add a promotion along the lines of "+1 movement if the unit starts its turn in friendly territory (lost on upgrade)."

 

[DeAnno]

The more I think about it a complicated solution might not be best, regardless if Galleass are a bit awkward to use now. The essential thing that makes their awkwardness bad is just that their combat stats are a little low for all the trouble you go through; what if they just got a slight notch up in strengths to be more competitive overall, reflecting that their tech is on the same tier as the melee ship of that era that perform better and have exploration utility.

 

[Tekamthi]

there's a promo already in-game that allows deep water after discovery of [tech] (astronomy? compass? can't recall specifically)... this promo on galleass used to be in a personal mod of mine i'd run almost every game, but abandonned it after naval rebalance that made frigates less powerful... good compromise on OP concern. its only a line or two of sql iirc, will find it

edit: see below

UPDATE UnitPromotions
SET CannotBeChosen = 1
WHERE Type = 'PROMOTION_OCEAN_IMPASSABLE_UNTIL_ASTRONOMY';

UPDATE UnitPromotions_Terrains
SET PassableTech = 'TECH_ASTRONOMY'
WHERE PromotionType = 'PROMOTION_OCEAN_IMPASSABLE_UNTIL_ASTRONOMY';

DELETE FROM Unit_FreePromotions WHERE UnitType = 'UNIT_GALLEASS' AND PromotionType = 'PROMOTION_OCEAN_IMPASSABLE';

INSERT INTO Unit_FreePromotions
        (UnitType,            PromotionType)
VALUES    ('UNIT_GALLEASS',    'PROMOTION_OCEAN_IMPASSABLE_UNTIL_ASTRONOMY');

UPDATE Language_en_US
SET Text = 'post-Astronomy Ocean Travel'
WHERE Tag = 'TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_OCEAN_IMPASSABLE_ASTRO';

UPDATE Language_en_US
SET Text = 'Requires discovery of Astronomy in order to move through ocean tiles.'
WHERE Tag = 'TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_OCEAN_IMPASSABLE_ASTRO_HELP';