Gamespy Interview - More Journalistic Cowardice

[Sim-Liver]

It's incredibly naive to expect every piece of software written to work for 100% of the people, 100% of the time.

I don't understand why people complain about this, since it has zero ability to accomplish anything. You have two options:

1) Wait patiently for the patch
2) Purchase a new computer/hardware
3) Return the game (this, by the way, carries more weight than anything you could write on any forum).

-V

Wher did you learn to count!!!

 

[Sadan01]

Hear Hear!!
I can honestly say that this title will eventually get to a fairly respectable state but not through the continual lacktose sucking journalism I see here, and the Apolyton site which ignore the main issues!

And what issues are they? What issues are being ignored by the two biggest fan-sites of the Civilization series?

Have you seen how many times they pump up the volume on interviews about "how great the program is". or "how high a score it has received"

Well this is a Civilization fan-site. What do you expect them to do? Run down Civ and Firaxis at every opportunity? Ahhh no. Go to a "neutral" website and judge there and even then, you will not be getting a 100% objective opinion on it until you try the product (whether it be you buy it or get the demo).

...when truthfully it is more like 70-80 score range instead of 95% or better.

Your opinion only.

Just listen to the people who do not hang around these forums and you can see the truth.

I say this respectively: If you don't like what people are saying here (and Apolyton) then why bother coming here? After all, as I said above, this is a Civilization Fan Site so what did you expect? I don't think it to be wise to slag-off on the community here.

Besides, those other sites are also impartial, subjective and downright wrong with their information. It is not a case of Apolyton and CFC are full of crap with fanboi's everywhere, and these "other" sites tell the absolute 100% goddammmmmm truth. No :shakehead

Sure the game company cannot run their software on every type of machine that might be using it, but then again so many other software titles have the same statement and get their product working perfectly the FIRST TIME!

But you EXPECT it to run on yours? That is the issue here - not every game is going to run on your machine perfectly, even if that machine is absolutely top-of-the-line. This is the nature of PC Gaming in itself. If you cannot get used to that, then once again, respectively, I would suggest a console. Guess what? No Civ (for now).
I can understand that when I buy some software, I do have an expectation for it to work and work well. But if it doesn't, I troubleshoot to get it working as generally, the problem is a machine-specific problem. If it was something like a bug in the program and the developer never fixed it (Read: Fake-Atari and EA), then I would not buy any software from that vendor again (exception: Microsoft, unfortunately ).

I do enjoy the program and yes I will continue to support the program when 2K gets off their Arses and stop ignoring the phone calls. (Telecommunications work is easier if the people actually answer the phone, I know because I used to do that for a living)

I agree with this point from what I have heard/read about Take2. In fact, even though I will never be able to provide any form of proof of this (in which I dont care ), I would think that a lot mischief of people that are unhappy are mainly unhappy with the support of Take2 and not really that of Firaxis.

 

[Sim-Liver]

And what issues are they? What issues are being ignored by the two biggest fan-sites of the Civilization series?


Well this is a Civilization fan-site. What do you expect them to do? Run down Civ and Firaxis at every opportunity? Ahhh no. Go to a "neutral" website and judge there and even then, you will not be getting a 100% objective opinion on it until you try the product (whether it be you buy it or get the demo).


Your opinion only.


I say this respectively: If you don't like what people are saying here (and Apolyton) then why bother coming here? After all, as I said above, this is a Civilization Fan Site so what did you expect? I don't think it to be wise to slag-off on the community here.

Besides, those other sites are also impartial, subjective and downright wrong with their information. It is not a case of Apolyton and CFC are full of crap with fanboi's everywhere, and these "other" sites tell the absolute 100% goddammmmmm truth. No :shakehead


But you EXPECT it to run on yours? That is the issue here - not every game is going to run on your machine perfectly, even if that machine is absolutely top-of-the-line. This is the nature of PC Gaming in itself. If you cannot get used to that, then once again, respectively, I would suggest a console. Guess what? No Civ (for now).
I can understand that when I buy some software, I do have an expectation for it to work and work well. But if it doesn't, I troubleshoot to get it working as generally, the problem is a machine-specific problem. If it was something like a bug in the program and the developer never fixed it (Read: Fake-Atari and EA), then I would not buy any software from that vendor again (exception: Microsoft, unfortunately ).


I agree with this point from what I have heard/read about Take2. In fact, even though I will never be able to provide any form of proof of this (in which I dont care ), I would think that a lot mischief of people that are unhappy are mainly unhappy with the support of Take2 and not really that of Firaxis.

Opinions are what makes sites like these go around and around and so yours and mine though different are creating the same goal...

Take 2 has failed..nuff said...


Yes I like things to run perfectly and if you look at allmost every piece of top of the line software you'll notice that they all do except those that have larger than life issues which needed to be worked out before shipping began.

take a look at Age of empires 3 they have about the same type of graphics engines with 3E and such but AOE3 ran great right out of the gate with a patch for the normal things one would expect from a game like a certain tree doesn't quite look right or the AI forgets soem mathmatical equation and makes you see different colors or something like that.

Why cant you just admit that the C4 was very buggy right out of the gate?! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that it has some major flaws.

This site and Apolyton do not stay around if they are only one sided informationally therefor we ALL need to add content here.

I have agreed that Firaxis has been attacking the issues but they missed the boat from the start and because of that people need to let them know of the failings or nothing gets done about any of them. (hence the thread on firaxis want your logs near the top...)

It is the respomsability of the programing team to create the product as perfectly as possible, with any other product if you (non computer) you can return it to the vendor. not so with computer games they will exchange it for like product(thats just great I get the same F....D up program again in a new box.) You do not get your money back! I know Because I tried with EB games they will not give money back even though stated problem are because of the companys lackings in development. If I buy a toaster oven and it doesn't work I take it bakc and can get another or get somethingn else or just get my money back period. This does not apply to computer games. So my game had better be right ro I'll have a right to be pissed off about it. $50 is a lot to loose on something frivolous.

Why is it not too wise to frag here? What are they going to do move my post to a nonread thread in some distant corner of the sites forum so nobody can read it. (again Lactose Sucking Journalism at its best).

 

[nin9abadga]

Why cant you just admit that the C4 was very buggy right out of the gate?! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that it has some major flaws.

excuse my question but what flaws are these? i'm afraid i may not be a rocket scientist

nin9abadga

 

[Pvblivs]

Let us together take a look into the patch list and even see this gamespy interview - "we planned a throne room, but we have not had the time" and you know what flaws have been since the beginning. A lot of.

Nevertheless: The game was released two months ago, I could not even play Civ after buying it (thanks to missing T&L). All this was fixed by now. I am not unhappy with it. I am happy it works now.

I understand why people want to complain. My question: Is it worth it? I doubt it. Software is getting more and more complex. All that can be said is to game developers: For your image's sake, take your time.

I would never complain about a bad film I saw in a movie theater but I would about a mixer that has flaws. Now, a game like any piece of software is somewhere in between. I am happy that flaws can and will be fixed.

To make my flame per day: Take a look at all those poor Linux users that, in earlier days, needed to fix their operating system themselves if it did not work with their hardware . Ever seen anyone of them complaining?
What is not killing us makes us even stronger. So remain strong and have fun playing Civ4 Or stress yourself with laments and complaints.

And please, don't take too serious what I wrote. It is meant more inspiring than offending.

Sic.

 

[warpstorm]

All that can be said is to game developers: For your image's sake, take your time.

Most game developers would love to do this. They can't. Their schedules are dictated by the publishers.

 

[Glinka]

opticaljim, your reply is appreciated, good to know there are others out there who can see what is really going on here.

iSkratch, what's actually going on here are three things. 1) Some people have had absolutely no problems with the game. 2) Some people have had problems with the game that were resolved by the 1.52 patch. 3) Some people have had CTDs out the wazoo, to put it bluntly, and nothing has helped. The problem, as I pointed out in another thread, is that each of these three groups assumes it's in the overwhelming majority, and everybody else is either a "fanboy" or a "whiner," take your pick.

So please, stop seeing this entirely through your anger-focused glasses. Yes, we all recognize the game hasn't worked for you. But implying that when it works for anybody else they're either lying or out of their minds does little for your creditability. You're certainly entitled to complain, but try to have a bit of respect for those whose experience is other than yours. You'll find fewer people writing you off as a loudmouth whose opinions aren't worth canvassing, if you do--assuming you're interested in the opinions of others, rather than simply ranting at large.

And good luck with getting Civ4 working. Soon.

 

[spankey]

Yet another "interview" in which the reviewer completely avoids asking any direct questions about the massive number of fatal bugs which remain in Civ IV.

My guess: Firaxis is going to force people to fix their crappy code (essentially using unpaid labor) once they release the SDK.

What a complete and utter joke.

Just some general comments about this thread. Of course there is a relationship between the reviewers, their magazines/web sites, and the companies putting out the products. The reviewers need access to get the movers and shakers in the development community to continue their publications. They will not get access if they are overly harsh or critical. Would you give your biggest critic access to continue to criticize you? But really, don't delude yourself into thinking this is just for game reviewers.

The entertainment press are just sops for the celebrities. Do you really hear hard-hitting questions in those kind of interviews? Even print and television journalists rule out stories that do not fit what they want to report. They will develop relationships between themselves and sources that may not be ethical.

How this program was developed is the typical business model for this industry. I'm just glad there still is an industry with all the rampant piracy that goes on. I personally do not play consoles....

 

[Breunor]

I think people ought to be careful of the argument that the quality of the whole industry has been reduced, in that all games are released with bugs now.

I think most people here do recognize that all major releases have some bugs. There are differences in opinion in whether CIV IV has 'more than it should' or 'has the amount it should', or 'less than it should'. If it has more than it should, it is probably legitimate to say the product is flawed.

However, saying that all companies, as an industry, should release products with fewer flaws just isn't a sustainable position. Say, for instance, to greatly reduce bugs (total elimination is just impossible) it takes 15% more time. There are only 2 potential solutions.

Some people think that the first response is that the price of the product rises. Economically, this doesn't really make sense, because raising the price reduces purchases. The game is normally priced at the revenue maximization point anyway, so money can't really be recaptured that way.

So, generally, it comes out of the publishers profit, or in reality some increase in price and a reduction of profit. As a whole, computer game making isn't a massively profitable industry, and we know a lot fo comapnies go bankrupt and get ought out.

So, say the publishers have to take it onthe chin, what happens? First, fewer games are released. Programmers are fired, and staffs are cut. Less capital moves into the industry.

So, any company must weigh all of the factors. We now DO have an industry standard, that says releasing games with some level of bugs is the 'best' solution. Games reviewers also know all of this. Furthermore, a full release of a major game will discover bugs much faster than internal playtesting.


So, my point isn't that CIV IV has more or less than other games; as was said above, its hard to tell from the data present. What I am saying is that bug-free releases have been put tot he market test, and requiring it from all companies will inevitably hurt the industry more than it helps.

Its like the old business traveler statement -- 'If you have never missed a flight, you spend too much time in airports.'

Breunor

 

[cordash]

ok, everyone needs to quit their fricking whining about the bugs in this game. EVERY computer game has bugs, EVERY computer game comes out later than expected. I got Civ IV to run on a machine with an intel video card and only 512 mg of ram. Perhaps if you cant tweak your system and Civ to work, then you dont deserve to play the game. Every gamer knows that sometimes you have to do some work to get a game to play.

Frankly, I am much happier that Firaxis decided to make an amazing game and didnt dumb it down so every single person could play on their crappy out-of-date machines. If you dont want to put any work towards making the game work, then stop whining and find a new game.

 

[Depravo]

Charming, just charming.

 

[Yzen Danek]

I used to get high and mighty on the 'unfinished software' soapbox, but I've changed my mind on the subject.

It's 2006, high-speed internet connections are the norm and computers are incredibly diverse in their hardware configurations.

If the software has critical bugs on 10% of the machines out there, as long as patches keep coming at quick and steady intervals, holding release off while all those bugs are ironed out would just deprive the 90% from enjoying the software.

Patching is painless. A typical high-speed line downloads a 50 meg patch in less than two minutes.

 

[lukedukekiwi]

Im quite happy with my civ4 experience so far. I held off getting the game till xmas as after getting civ3 early i remembered having problems until the after the initial patches were released. I seem to get the odd graphics glitches occationally, but if apportioning blame were important id point the the finger at the graphics industry and their lack of driver driver support for "dated" cards. The only other games i have brought in the last year were Star wars knights of the old republic 1 and 2, and what a total mess of a product 2 was. The experience left me expecting the worse from civ4, so ive been pleasently surprised.

 

[Sadan01]

Opinions are what makes sites like these go around and around and so yours and mine though different are creating the same goal...
Take 2 has failed..nuff said...

Yes I can agree that Take2 has failed in some ways, especially support, although I don't have first-hand experience with them as I haven't needed to contact them. I am only going on accounts of what other people have written on here and there seems to be far more people criticizing them than supporting them. Fine.

Yes I like things to run perfectly and if you look at allmost every piece of top of the line software you'll notice that they all do except those that have larger than life issues which needed to be worked out before shipping began.

Yes I think we all do want things to run perfectly first-time. It is very frustrating when you buy a new game or other software and then find it doesn't work. Sure. However, this is not the nature-of-the-beast when it comes to PC Gaming. For any given person, they may be able to get 9 games out of 10 running perfectly on their machine out of the box. But it will be that 10th game that they will have problems with. We have to accept this as the nature of PC gaming in general. Developers cannot spend their time working on a project until a) All bugs have been found and fixed and b) getting that game working on every single combination of PC hardware and software configurations out there in the world. No games (or software in general) would ever be released. No, these developers and publishers are here to give us fun but are also here to make a buck. That means games do have to be released on time (or on a schedule that meets the publishers timetable, in the case of T2 and the GTA scandal and then the release of Civ4 - if this is to be believed) and if they still have bugs, then they can be patched later.

Why cant you just admit that the C4 was very buggy right out of the gate?! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that it has some major flaws.

Because it quite simply wasn't "very buggy" for me. Sorry, but I can only base this on my own experiences and I didn't have many problems except video card problems which turned out to be a crappy and corrupt driver. Is that Firaxis's fault? No. This release (Civ4) was much better than Civ3/PTW.

This site and Apolyton do not stay around if they are only one sided informationally therefor we ALL need to add content here.

Umm these two sites you mention have been around for years and will continue to do so, no matter what the nay-sayers will say. Some people on both sites even have close links with Firaxis so ah, no. In fact, a lot of the "wants" I have read here and at Apolyton have actually been incorporated into either v1.09 or v1.52 so Firaxis do listen. Not all developers can say they listen (EA, are you listening? )

I have agreed that Firaxis has been attacking the issues but they missed the boat from the start and because of that people need to let them know of the failings or nothing gets done about any of them. (hence the thread on firaxis want your logs near the top...)

I'm sure Firaxis knew of their "failings" within the first two weeks of release (i.e. November 05, not January 06), strangely by these two sites you mention as adhering to "Lactose Sucking Journalism". A patch was out damn quick, covering a lot of the problems some people were having. The followup patch was released just before x-mas, so big two patches in a little under two months I feel is pretty good.

It is the respomsability of the programing team to create the product as perfectly as possible ... <snip>

Let me finish that sentence for you: "As long as the publisher allows the development team the time and resources to actually finish the product".

Because I tried with EB games they will not give money back even though stated problem are because of the companys lackings in development. If I buy a toaster oven and it doesn't work I take it bakc and can get another or get somethingn else or just get my money back period. This does not apply to computer games. So my game had better be right ro I'll have a right to be pissed off about it. $50 is a lot to loose on something frivolous.

This is a different issue. EB will not return games due to piracy-related concerns. Be pissed at EB for not allowing you to return the game. But they are perfectly open to allowing you to return XBOX and PS2 games. I kind of agree here that buying some PC software is a risk in terms of if that software doesn't work for whatever reason, you cannot return it for a refund or exchange. Very annoying. Don't buy from EB in the future. I personally think they suck and have gradually been getting worse over the last 5 years.

Why is it not too wise to frag here? What are they going to do move my post to a nonread thread in some distant corner of the sites forum so nobody can read it. (again Lactose Sucking Journalism at its best).

No no, what I meant was that by some, you may be seen as flaming. I am sure that is not what you want as I know you are here for the conversation and to put your views across and have them responded to.

 

[7th Circle]

Sure the game company cannot run their software on every type of machine that might be using it, but then again so many other software titles have the same statement and get their product working perfectly the FIRST TIME!

There is two possibilities here. Either
(a) You are just talking about your system and/or the systems you build.
(b) You are talking across all systems.

If you are talking across all systems, you lose an awful lot of credibility with such comments. Personally, I am not aware of one game in recent times that ran "perfectly" out of the box for all users (doom3 was very good though).

If you are talking about your system then quite frankly the reason that many people can't admit that civ 4 is "very buggy" is because, for many of us, it wasn't. Out of the box, the only bugs I had were slowdowns on huge size maps and an intermitent issue with the sound from wonder movies. My system isn't particularly powerful either (xp2500@11x200, 6600gt, 1GB).

 

[Sim-Liver]

No no, what I meant was that by some, you may be seen as flaming. I am sure that is not what you want as I know you are here for the conversation and to put your views across and have them responded to.

Your'e absolutely correct about my not wanting to flame..., and as This conversation could probably continue for months and I would rather play the game instead (now that it works thanks to my repair work on my systems incompatabilities and the better late than never fix by firaxis...don't bother) I will make my final statement here. You may reply as you wish. I LOVE the games incredible workings from begining to end, and since I am capable of repair work of my own I have it running as good as it can. I only hope that the people who developed Civ4 can continue the good conductivity within the params set by whomever buys their company next game...

 

[groobz]

The polls mean nothing since they're on the civ4 general discussion thread (people come here that can play the game), try looking at the polls created in the tech section. I remember when i first got the game, i never even went to this section since i couldn't play the game anyway...

now that i have my new computer, everything works fine on max tho

 

[Sadan01]

...and as This conversation could probably continue for months and I would rather play the game instead

Amen to that Although I am still at work, so cannot play ATM.

I will make my final statement here. You may reply as you wish. I LOVE the games incredible workings from begining to end, and since I am capable of repair work of my own I have it running as good as it can.

And I think this point does in some way sum up PC gaming in general. If you dont have those troubleshooting skills, then you may be in a world of hurt at some point when a game doesn't work on the system. It is very hard to put a ratio/percentage on it, so I put this to anyone that wants to respond in this thread: What do you think the ratio/percentage would be of people that have a problem with a game (such as Civ4), and it is their machine that is at fault - whether it be a driver, device, operating system problem, firewall, other hardware etc (Not whether or not they can fix it)?

 

[Bushface]

An old programmer's saying is that no program with over 1000 lines of code will ever be more than 99% correct in every respect. Now Civ4 has very many more lines than that, and I confidently expect that it will, indeed, never achieve absolute perfection. But that does not prevent it from being a wonderful game. One day, I may even have a computer which will allow me to play the game at above minimum graphics settings with vast maps and hordes of opposing civs . . .
But yes, the original version was obviously rushed out to a deadline set in the U.S. and here in England we didn't have to wait too long for the patches to appear. This would indicate to me that the patches were being written even before the first version was released (patches can't be written in a few minutes) and therefore it must be true that the original as-sold version was known to have serious flaws. My biggest complaint is that Civ4 is the most horrendous memory-hog of a program that I have ever encountered, and I do not understand why this should be the case. How well I recall the old days, when a program had to be carefully written so as to squeeze it into the 48K of available memory !

 

[EricTred]

Look around this forum for poll's that have been taken about this topic. You will learn that 90% - 95% of people can run Civ4 just fine, I'm sorry that you're in that 5% - 10% that is having troubles hopefully the next patch will work for you.

WRONG, more than that, lots have problems so get your head out of Firaxis arse ok , thats why things never get fixed cause 3 people out 100,000 have nasa computers and the game runs fine for them and the rest of us are all whiners. BTW yes I more than double the max recommended requirements, and still have massive problems and its not like this is the 1st game to be released unfinished its a plauge sweeping thou the gamming industry that its ok to screw us gammers over for 50$ here and there.....Thats a big welcome to greedy corporate America.

And yes I'am trashing his post. Don't post crap like polls they really do not represent the whole game community.

And yes I'am pissed, at all the time , money and energy I have wasted trying to get the "VIRUS" of a game to run ( which when it runs is an awesome game). So just be thankful it runs for you, but sitting on top of a church tower crowing about how it runs great for you is not doing anyone any good just like my post here , but I couldnt resist.

sorry was pissed