Gathering Storm: Failure or Success?

[Siptah]

I‘m not concerned about civ balance, I‘m concerned about the balance of different strategies and build orders, unit types etc.


Has anyone found a way to win a diplomatic victory without actively avoiding winning another type of victory?

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Can you just confirm you are not English plz

Some reference to "two nations separated by a common language" should go here.

 

[IvoryPavane]

I think multiplayer Civ with good friends is a lot of fun.

And that’s the joy of Civ I think, it really has something for everyone.

When I play single player though, I almost always value a Civ that makes me play the game slightly differently, or requires some though and effort to get the most out of them.

Sitting waiting 300 turns to win as Korea, or watching the computer fall against my 100% production as Australia would also send me screaming to the dentist chair comparison, it’s just not for me.

I know the perception of the new Civs is that they are very powerful, but I don’t think anything will top the post vanilla, pre Rise and Fall DLC Civs. They are all a bit ridiculous in their own way (except the Khmer perhaps). At least the new Civs have some counterplay, which you don’t really get with Nubia.

Also, there’s a lot of discussion around Civ balance but honestly, you can win with any of them. And I’m often amazed at how well people can do, and the little interplay’s and efficiencies they can develop when they are passionate about a Civ and/or leader

 

[leandrombraz]

I‘m not concerned about civ balance, I‘m concerned about the balance of different strategies and build orders, unit types etc.


Has anyone found a way to win a diplomatic victory without actively avoiding winning another type of victory?

No, I'm having a really hard time dodging winning a cultural as Sweden. I'm pilling up great people without using it and losing on a lot of culture because I don't want the tourism. I can't even dream of building national parks or ski resorts and that 30% boost to tourism on the civic tree might close the deal or force me to finally remove all my Open-air museums, losing even more culture to avoid tourism. Meanwhile, Kongo have the highest domestic tourism after me and he seems to have given up on winning Cultural, considering that he is building spaceports on every single city he owns. Korea is in the game, Mvemba. Stick to what you're good at.

It would be nice if I could set the game in a way that I can't win cultural but the AI still can. It would be nice to prevent my own victory without taking that ability from the AI.

 

[Archon_Wing]

The resource count system is good except for having infantry require oil is bad since oil isn't even discovered at that point.

Balance is probably a problem, but somewhat to be expected. Diplomatic Victory is not useful, meaning all the diplomatic victory civs are disadvantaged. It doesn't seem like you can win one before t300 and I'm not sure how that can be viable on higher difficulties.

Natural disasters are fun and force you to pay attention to how you move units, or even take advantage of flooding to deter enemies, for example.

Map generation is still not very good.

They still haven't nerfed Goddess of the Harvest? WTH?

Power doesn't really help that much and causes a lot of bad things to happen.

Related, England still sucks.

 

[Disgustipated]

can levy half a dozen city states at a time

I could just barely afford to levy 1 city state. That costed me over 900 gold. Don't tell me I can levy 6. That's an outright lie. Maybe in the late game, but by then it's too late. And guess what, twice the AI stole suzerain from me. So don't tell me this is OP. The AI does nothing but save up their envoys. I know you mean multiplayer, and smart human players playing with Hungary in the game should also save up their envoys.

You've never had 20 former units of yours turned against you. It isn't pretty going up against 20 units when you have almost nothing.

 

[IvoryPavane]

I could just barely afford to levy 1 city state. That costed me over 900 gold. Don't tell me I can levy 6. That's an outright lie. Maybe in the late game, but by then it's too late. And guess what, twice the AI stole suzerain from me. So don't tell me this is OP. The AI does nothing but save up their envoys. I know you mean multiplayer, and smart human players playing with Hungary in the game should also save up their envoys.

You've never had 20 former units of yours turned against you. It isn't pretty going up against 20 units when you have almost nothing.

Agreed, in our MP matches, we often saved our envoys for Hungary in case he got a bit feisty so he ultimately had to invest all his envoys in one area to keep it for war.

I think it’s a strong ability, but it’s situational

 

[SahintheFalcon]

I could just barely afford to levy 1 city state. That costed me over 900 gold. Don't tell me I can levy 6. That's an outright lie. Maybe in the late game, but by then it's too late. And guess what, twice the AI stole suzerain from me. So don't tell me this is OP. The AI does nothing but save up their envoys. I know you mean multiplayer, and smart human players playing with Hungary in the game should also save up their envoys.

You've never had 20 former units of yours turned against you. It isn't pretty going up against 20 units when you have almost nothing.

450 gold in online speed, and that is already on the high end. This is easy to achieve by turn 50 or so by spamming commercial hubs.

 

[kaspergm]

I kind of agree on the hit and miss part, although not on the individual points. In that regard, it's much the same as RnF. My key thoughts from fairly limited experience:

• New resource system - overall hit. Does underline the absurd imbalance between a resource and a non-resource start, however. It would probably work better if the resource would allow you to give the unit a buff. For instance, you can build a Swordsman, and then you can invest an additional 10 or 20 Iron to give him better equipment for a +5 Combat bonus (say) - but if you don't have iron, you can still have a Swordsman, he's just less effective.
• Climate change - undecided. I looked forward to this before release, but from what I've experienced so far, a let-down. Accelerates way too fast, leaving you zero leverage to control it.
• Natural disasters - hit. This seems quite balanced and well thought out. I like it.
• World congress - undecided, leaning towards miss. The new voting system is very confusing and often counterintuitive, and it feels like you as player has very little impact on most of the decisions. I do like the new scored competitions, however, they feel much more balanced than the ridiculous ones from Civ5.
• AI changes - some hit, some miss. AI actually feels much more competitive and sensible in late game. However in early game, it feels somewhat off. Specifically, a lot of wonders just sit unbuild for many eras. In my games so far on Emperor difficulty, prime wonders like Pyramids, Petra, Chichen Itza and Sct. Basils Cathedral, that I would previously have to rush for to even have the faintest chance of getting - and would usually miss - I have now been able to build ages after they were unlocked.
• New science victory - miss. Why even bother? Before we had to wait for a lot of things to get build; now we have to wait for a lot of things to get build, and then we have to wait passively for spaceship to arrive. Boring.
• Rock bands - hit. I was sceptical about this at first, but I had real fun in my first game sending my religious rock band around performing at world wonders for 15000+ tourism each time.
• New future era stuff and sea buildings - hit. I actually had a lot of fun developing with this stuff in my first game, and it have me something to do late game.

 

[Disgustipated]

Thing I'm struggling with right now mentioned in the OP is resources. There simply aren't enough to go around. I feel like I'm missing something.

I'm getting 3 coal per turn, just one coal power plant powering several buildings uses all of that. How can you possibly have enough for coal power plants and units? I can't even build more than 1 or 2 coal power plants. What am I missing? Oil won't be much better. I got Rockerfeller, but so far I'm not sure what oil resources I'm going to get. I agree with the OP, resources need to give more yield. At least on normal and even epic speed. Marathon may indeed be okay, but not my normal speed game right now. It's kind of silly my people just have to go without power because I only have 1 coal resource.

 

[AriochIV]

Thing I'm struggling with right now mentioned in the OP is resources. There simply aren't enough to go around. I feel like I'm missing something.

I'm getting 3 coal per turn, just one coal power plant powering several buildings uses all of that. How can you possibly have enough for coal power plants and units? I can't even build more than 1 or 2 coal power plants. What am I missing? Oil won't be much better. I got Rockerfeller, but so far I'm not sure what oil resources I'm going to get. I agree with the OP, resources need to give more yield. At least on normal and even epic speed. Marathon may indeed be okay, but not my normal speed game right now. It's kind of silly my people just have to go without power because I only have 1 coal resource.

One source isn't enough. If that's all you have, you either need to trade for coal, or you need to go acquire more (sway a city-state that has some, colonize, or conquer).

 

[Swissy]

In MP, it might be an issue. But I think in SP, having OP civs is actually better because they are definitely more fun to play with.

This and 2K's belief they won't be able to successfully monetize multiplayer is the reason why many in the multiplayer community have turned to civ bans and mods. There has been only one Civilization game, Civ IV, that was designed from the start with multiplayer in mind. That was before 2K bought the Civ franchise. You will not have a another one until either 2K figures a way to monetize it or they sell the franchise to another publisher.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

How can an MP game in less than 45 minutes relate to Infantry, Artillery, Mounties???

 

[adcarrymaokai]

I barely touched the game size R&F, and after crying a little bit about the price tag on GS, I finally bought it, and... I absolutely love it so far. The climate change/natural disasters, the grievance system, world congress, the absolutely busted Matthias Corvinus , and other things. I feel like even the AI is doing more stuff now: not because it was improved, but because there are more options for them, as well.

This and 2K's belief they won't be able to successfully monetize multiplayer is the reason why many in the multiplayer community have turned to civ bans and mods. There has been only one Civilization game, Civ IV, that was designed from the start with multiplayer in mind. That was before 2K bought the Civ franchise. You will not have a another one until either 2K figures a way to monetize it or they sell the franchise to another publisher.

I honestly don't understand how multiplayer for games like Civ or Europa Universalis can be successful. It requires immense time commitment and coordination—something that most people with families and work/social life can't really have, unless they put gaming before everything else. I am single and definitely spend time on my games, but I also don't want to be in situations where I have to commit to a multiplayer game and then leave or something. I also plan to have kids one day, and I just don't see how multiplayer would be viable then... unless you play with your partner or something. I also like a reload or two on the occasion.

When I want multiplayer experience, I go play games designed for multiplayer in the first place, like LoL, Fortnite, DotA, Overwatch, etc.

 

[blackcatatonic]

Specifically, a lot of wonders just sit unbuild for many eras. In my games so far on Emperor difficulty, prime wonders like Pyramids, Petra, Chichen Itza and Sct. Basils Cathedral, that I would previously have to rush for to even have the faintest chance of getting - and would usually miss - I have now been able to build ages after they were unlocked.

So it's not just me who has noticed this, then...

Hardly any Wonders were built in my first game. I thought that was a little odd but it was a weird map (loads of mountains and very little flat land) which ruled out a lot of them. However it's the same story on my second map, which is a lot more open and flat. Fair enough, this is King, but even on this difficulty in R&F I had my work cut out building any of the ones you listed.

Great Baths and Meenakshi, though? The AI beelines for them every time.

 

[Swissy]

I honestly don't understand how multiplayer for games like Civ or Europa Universalis can be successful. It requires immense time commitment and coordination—something that most people with families and work/social life can't really have, unless they put gaming before everything else. I am single and definitely spend time on my games, but I also don't want to be in situations where I have to commit to a multiplayer game and then leave or something. I also plan to have kids one day, and I just don't see how multiplayer would be viable then... unless you play with your partner or something. I also like a reload or two on the occasion.

When I want multiplayer experience, I go play games designed for multiplayer in the first place, like LoL, Fortnite, DotA, Overwatch, etc.

A game played at online speed with a modified dynamic timer that scales by era/cities, can be played in 3-6 hours. Also, GS included a new "Play By Cloud" multiplayer mode where games at standard speed can be played over time, much like the PBEM of Civ IV. I don't play those designed multiplayer games as I don't have the reflexes required to be competitive.

 

[Jewelrunna]

I think overall, it's a success, at least more so than R&F. The new mechanics are, at least in my opinion, uniformly good additions, and don't muddle up the game like R&F's loyalty system did.

• Natural disasters/climate change: while some people might find them frustrating, I absolutely adore this addition. It adds an extra layer of dynamics and unpredictability to Civ VI without just being random BS. The fertility system is brilliant as well, making me roll with the punches without feeling cheated. I love climate change as well, as I found myself racing to build my protections against the rising sea levels; the late game was much more tense because of this, which was a much needed addition. I might scale it back a little, because my game reached level VII super quickly before other Civs could really adopt nuclear power, but I suppose that is accurate to real life.
• Power: Holy crap, I love this more than I expected. I complain about how the late game buildings feel sort of inconsequential in R&F, but these yields from power are amazing. The different systems of power are great too; I ended up beelining Refining earlier than I might have otherwise, because my empire had a lack of coal. I really like how they handled nuclear power as well, with the renewing of reactors.
• World Congress: I have mixed feelings about this, because on one hand, I love the improvements over Civ V. The resolutions are pretty much across the board more interesting, the Diplomatic Victory is more interesting than just "garner city-states," I love how Favor makes Alliances relevant, and the Emergencies/Competitions are seemlessly integrated. However, what I dislike is how the Resolutions are picked at random. Part of the fun of the WC in Civ V was how you could pick the agenda of the Congress, and consolidating diplomatic power meant you could really screw over other empires or get screwed over. Maybe the randomness makes it a little more "fair" for Civs that are falling behind in terms of currying favor, but the current system kinda just makes it feel like you're just waiting for the game to randomly pick proposals that benefit you, which is lame.
• Future Era: Great idea, but the techs feel pretty barren in all honesty. This is a broader problem that Civ VI has, but pretty much all the techs just exist to boost the GDR. Continuing to tech up in this era feels kind of meaningless, and as a result the Future Era comes across as just tacked on. The Civic tree is only a little better in this regard.
• Dams & Canals: Dams were way cooler than I expected. They're better sources of housing than Aqueducts if you actually settle on the river, giving you incentive to build them; not to mention the power than comes later. The fact that you still get some fertility without any of the cons is great too. Canals seem more like a meme than Dams, but the extra source of gold is also cool.
• New Civs: This is probably the best part of the expansion, as they really pushed the design of these Civs to all play uniquely apart from the preexisting ones, making the experience all that more enjoyable. The Maori stand out in particular as one of my favorite designs in any Civ game, period.
• New wonders: The new wonders seem kind of lame, honestly. Panama Canal is kind of a meme, and the only ones that really stand out are Machu Pichu and Országház.
• Grievances: They fixed warmongering, thank god. The new system is far more interesting and transparent, and I couldn't be happier with it honestly.
• New culture and science victories: Rock bands are great, and make the culture victory much more engaging than it previously was. While I do like the new science victory, I'm not sure if it's any better than the previous one. While they clearly designed this to be kind of a "race" to Alpha Centauri, that's kind of how the previous one was anyways with you racing to build all the ship parts first. It kind of seems like a net neutral.

So here's what I think it fixed:

• Diplomacy is overall better, more interesting, and more transparent. This is unambiguously a good thing.
• Production in the late game is much better thanks to power and the additional yields that come with it. This is important, as previously building anything in the late game felt like such a chore, even in your best cities. I also think early game production is scaled better, but that was just a feeling from the single playthrough I had; no real thoughts on it based on data, so I could be wrong.
• The tech tree has less dead ends, buffing some Civs and making things more reasonable to progress through.
• The late game is much more interesting than it was previously, which is a much need improvement.
• While the meta is certainly going to still favor playing wide, consolidating just a few strong core cities seems stronger and more viable than it was previously, improving overall diversity.
• Civ VI overall is more dynamic than it was previous, and engaging with the map is more fun. Given that those were two core tenets of the design process since Vanilla, I think that's a success.

However, here's some stuff that the game still needs to address:

• A lot of techs in the game, like Mathematics, Construction, Buttresses, Astronomy, and others feel kind of worthless to research and don't give you much in terms of stuff to use from them. This is bad for a game which is predicated on progressing through technologies and unlocking new toys to play with. This is partially because the game now has to split these toys between techs and Civics, but that's still no excuse for Astronomy literally unlocking just Potala Palace.
• Unit progression still seems kind of jank, and they added new units where they weren't as needed. Sure, the addition of Coursers and Cuirassiers makes the already good Mounted lines better, but where's the love for the Melee line? Why do we progress from Classical swordsmen straight to Muskets, and from there straight to modern Infantry without so much as any indication of a Rifleman? Or the trébuchet, a major advancement in siege warfare? The addition of the Skirmisher is actually more appreciated than I expected, but we still need to fix these gaps in the unit tree for both historical accuracy and to buff the Melee unit line.
• Civ balance in the higher tiers is honestly pretty good, but some of the lower tiers need more love than they have. England's changes arguably continue the trend of actually making them worse, not better than their vanilla iteration (which was simply good, not great). It's kind of insulting that the only buffs Norway got were systematic, while they're now completely overshadowed by Phoenicia and the Maori. Let's not even start on the tragedies that are Spain, France, Khmer, India, and Georgia. It says a lot that Georgia actually got significantly buffed (both directly and via system changes) and are still awful. However, Egypt and America's buffs are actually pretty nice, though the production on Iteru could still be a little better, even if for just districts.
• I would personally like to see more representation of major Civs and wonders; though I applaud the devs for picking some more esoteric choices, I still want my Babylon, Maya, Byzantium Austria, Portugal, Ethiopia, and more North Native Americans. We're also still missing some major wonder staples, such as the Notre Dame, Sistine Chapel, the Pentagon, the Parthenon (though this is kind of covered by the Acropolis), and the Louvre. We could also do with more representation of wonders from Civs that are already in the game, like Borobudur, Porcelain Tower, and the Statue of Zeus to round out the Seven Wonders. This could easily be solved by some more DLC or another expansion; if the devs want to move on, then that's fine, but I personally think Civ VI stands to gain more from future additions via those add-ons, and I would gladly purchase them. This is more of a personal thing and not really systematic, but I think the game would benefit a lot. Besides, Civ VI barely uses it's alternate leader concept! They could release a mini-pack with just alt-leaders.

 

[teakbois]

So it's not just me who has noticed this, then...

Hardly any Wonders were built in my first game. I thought that was a little odd but it was a weird map (loads of mountains and very little flat land) which ruled out a lot of them. However it's the same story on my second map, which is a lot more open and flat. Fair enough, this is King, but even on this difficulty in R&F I had my work cut out building any of the ones you listed.

Great Baths and Meenakshi, though? The AI beelines for them every time.

I wonder if they've improved things like CI and Petra so the AI wouldnt build them if it only has 1-2 tiles that benefit

 

[Equilin]

How can an MP game in less than 45 minutes relate to Infantry, Artillery, Mounties???

later starts i guess?

 

[Onin]

I really like the new systems and the new civs so far. I think it will change how people play and that is ok with me.

I think that there is some room for tweaking but the changes are all really good IMO. I think the way resources work is here to stay. So much better than the alternative.

Great Success.