Gator02 - Learning to Walk

[bradleyfeanor]

The timetable of when things are going to happen in this game is what makes me favor the Caste System/9-10 city approach over Slavery/6 cities.

Currently, the biggest limiting factor on when we can win the game is research: the faster we can get to Astronomy, the faster we can win. Infrastructure development is not as critical. We will not need to begin building military units until we are much closer to Astronomy. That leaves many upcoming turns during which we can build infrastructure. Even without slavery, we will have plenty of time to build the things we need: lighthouses, theatres, courthouses, barracks, libraries and a few marketplaces and forges.

Right now, every turn we spend in Slavery instead of Caste System is trading beakers for hammers (because of our capitol). Since I believe that research is the limiting factor on our victory date, not production, it doesn’t seen a good trade to me. It is okay for now because we aren’t losing many beakers, but that will not be the case for long.

The reason I want more cities than six is because those extra cities are going to be worth a great many beakers post-Optics. They will help us get to Astronomy much sooner than if we stop at only six cities. As I mentioned earlier, those cities will not be running Merchants forever, only until we meet the other civs. We will be able to deal with expenses in other ways at that point. We will be able to generate a Great Merchant if we want, or we can trade around a useless tech for all the money of the AIs.

However, these extra cities will only be of value to us if we found them relatively soon. They need to already have a decent population shortly after we reach Optics. Then, when we plop all those merchants down on coast tiles, we will have strong research cities that are growing like weeds.

I don’t think we will be trading any cottage growth in our current cities by founding additional cities. For example, if each of these cities runs one merchant (and therefore is not working one cottage), that will work out about the same as utilizing slavery: the lost population from whipping wouldn’t be working cottages either.

I also don’t think additional cities will rob our current cities of food. Right now, all our cities have a big surplus of food and can grow to the happiness limit very quickly. After reaching the happiness limit, that surplus food can be turned into shields while running slavery, but without slavery the best way to utilize that extra food is to found more cities that can use it.

@Bez: I think it would be very helpful for all of us if you write down our expenses just prior to founding our next city, and then again just after founding it. Also note any increase in what Caste System would cost us before and after. I think the cost of the extra 3 or 4 cities I am talking about will be less than everyone thinks. In my experience, expense and civic costs don’t escalate prohibitively until the 10th city. Once we trade for currency and drama, each fishing village will be able to earn around 30 bpt for us, without a library. If they are only costing us around 12gpt, then that will be a good trade for us in this game.

The only disadvantage I see to switching to Caste System and building additional cities, is that we will not be able to build buildings as fast as we could under Slavery. I think the research edge CS will give us (from both our capitol and from the additional cities) outweighs that.

So I still think that switching to CS around the time we can rush a courhouse in our Dye city would be a good move. Ideally, I would try to have two settlers ready to found new cities on the same turn.

 

[leif erikson]

Currently, the biggest limiting factor on when we can win the game is research: the faster we can get to Astronomy, the faster we can win. Infrastructure development is not as critical. We will not need to begin building military units until we are much closer to Astronomy. That leaves many upcoming turns during which we can build infrastructure. Even without slavery, we will have plenty of time to build the things we need: lighthouses, theatres, courthouses, barracks, libraries and a few marketplaces and forges.

So I still think that switching to CS around the time we can rush a courhouse in our Dye city would be a good move. Ideally, I would try to have two settlers ready to found new cities on the same turn.

OK, I say let's go for it this way!

Dry land favors using food bonuses to work that dry land (note:it also means more hammers for units/infra/wonders though) instead of using them to support specialists.

I can be convinced otherwise, Brad's focus on early commerce in the captial is one that I now appreciate, and has helped my openings in the couple games where I have tested it (thanks Brad), but these are my concerns.

I think the goal is to utilize as many cottages as possible and use citizens as efficiently as possible.

I think am starting to realize that we need research now and production later. So, our current goal appears to be a focused research effort to Astronomy, make contact, trade for what we need, and then shifting focus to production to build an army of conquest and a navy to carry it.

 

[Bezhukov]

The crux of the argument is whether to settle two (mediocre) cities to the west or one excellent city, that would make an ideal Heroic Epic location (which we currently lack). Secondarily whether to settle the fishing village on the east coast yet and/or additional marginal cities now.

"The only disadvantage I see to switching to Caste System and building additional cities, is that we will not be able to build buildings as fast as we could under Slavery."

No, the disadvantage is that it requires hiring several specialists at -2/0/3 instead of working tiles at 2/0/3 (and growing) or 1/1/3 or even, gasp! 0/4/0, including several just to break even in comparison to other approaches. Founding additional (infra-free!) cities is a strange way to boost short-term research!

I really think you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole here. Basically, the turns in which we'd be pursuing Optics and where you're trying to go all out to boost research, at the cost of cottage development, are the same turns you suggest we take on extra expenses via founding new cities and waiting for them to grow (slowly, lacking basic infra) enough to hire specialists.

I'll give it a try, I guess, got the game, will play tonight.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

The crux of the argument is whether to settle two (mediocre) cities to the west or one excellent city, that would make an ideal Heroic Epic location (which we currently lack).

I think our dye city will make a great heroic epic city since it has 5 grass/hills.

 

[Bezhukov]

This would involve not using the dyes for commerce, nor river hill windmills that trigger our financial bonus. The dye city has potential to be great all around and should receive our second academy, but a heroic epic city wants mines and farms and continuous troops instead of commerce boosting infra.

 

[Bezhukov]

One thing I'd like to learn about is how to easily compose reports while playing. The old alt-tab to Word doesn't work anymore, so I'm reduced to jotting down stuff on ye old pen and paper!

pre-turn: Cori switched to granary to make good use of that pig, why is the Ollan workboat sitting on the crab instead of the fish (more food)? Move it there, switch build here to granary as well for same reason as Cori. Need to get some use out of slavery before switch to CS. Let Tia build the second workboat for Ollan, which can scout a bit on its way. Cuzco halts growth for two turns to wait for its granary to complete (keeping food box half full). This also lets Macchu get the pig back to grow its pop out. Fires scientists to work cottages.

600: Cuzco:granary->barracks, switches to high commerce/production, slow growth.

575: Iron working->sailing (in 1!), Tia has iron! What a city! So does Ollan (much needed) Barb axe sighted in north, Quechas scramble to jungle hill/pray

550: Sailing->Compass

525: Wine hooked, cities configured for growth, Cuzco:barracks->missionary

450: Iron hooked, queue axe for a turn in Cori to remove penalty if we need to whip it

425: Cuzco:missionary->axe

400:Ollan and Cori whip their granaries, Cori gets a chopped worker next, the missionary arrived from Cuzco to make it Confucian, so it will pop in 10 without a library. Ollan a lighthouse to boost its two sea resources even further.

Macchu and Tia's build weren't in my notes. Tia shouldn't ever need whipping again, as it has all kinds of wonderful tiles to work. Macchu can whip a library next to hire some scientists via the pig if you like. Still need a couple more workers and at least one settler.

Oh, and I switched to Calendar from Compass so we could get dyes and incense hooked. Due next turn.

A note on granaries:

They not only help recover whipped pop, they're much needed in the current situation of a burst in happiness, so that population can be quickly gained without sacrificing production and commerce working farm tiles longer than absolutely necessary.

Then there's this:



Looks like only a single tile, but it does have fish.

What Cori and Ollan looked like for whipping:





As you can see, they're both working unimproved tiles and have plenty of extra happiness to grow into.

 

[Bezhukov]

Note: the importance of the isle is the possibility that it could open up a passage to other lands.

 

[DJMGator13]

Roster
bradleyfeanor - still On deck & waiting for a refill
Gator - waiting patiently
Bede - (is your computer situation fixed?)
Bezhukov - just played
leif - just like Bodie, came back with no medals - Up??

@leif - I had you skipped in the roster, but I think that was during your ski trip, so I think that puts you up and Brad (yes I know your Tide rolled over my Gators, congrats) on deck.

@team - how long should we stay with Slavery?

 

[Bezhukov]

Macchu can whip a library once it grows, and with two more happy resources coming online soon, I think we've got a good shot at whipping the Great Lighthouse in Ollan within the next twenty turns, which will pay huge dividends if we get Astronomy early, as this opens up ocean trading. Tia and Cuzco have enough quality tiles not to need whipping, and Cori should be there too in the next twenty.

If we do settle on that island, the city will be close to useless without slavery to help it along in the next 20-60 turns. Likewise, whatever we do with the northeast peninsula, the pig and fish there mean slavery can help get it going much more quickly.

As we're getting two more happies within the next 5-10 turns (incense is available in 3, dyes will require an axe to guard the north), running specialists now is highly suboptimal, as we should get our new citizens online ASAP (this is one reason I didn't get any settlers/workers built, as I was growing pop).

 

[Bezhukov]

BTW, once incense is hooked, those workers need to get Cuzco's river cottages finished.

As for the optimal number of cities question, one way of looking at it is that we already have 40-odd cities founded, its just that the AI are quite generously paying the maintenance and building infra for us in all but 5 so far.

 

[leif erikson]

leif - just like Bodie, came back with no medals - Up??

@leif - I had you skipped in the roster, but I think that was during your ski trip, so I think that puts you up and Brad (yes I know your Tide rolled over my Gators, congrats) on deck.

@team - how long should we stay with Slavery?

I'm also so up in SGOTM09. If Brad has the time, please let him have a go as tomorrow evening I'll be civ3'ing. If we can wait, I can get to this on Wednesday.

I have had a look at the save and was looking for some advice on how to micromanage Cozco to keep the cottages worked and prevent it from going over the happiness limit? The irrigated corn provides +6 and we have a +3 food surplus. Removing 3 Food seems to require that we hire 2 Specialists (either Priests or Scientists) but that means giving up a cottage on plains that is producing 4 GPT, and will produce more if worked.

Or, should we let the city go into unhappiness as we are 2 turns from Calendar and then we can get a worker to the Dyes and Incense; so it will be temporary?

The screenie of Cuzco is below:

 

[Bede]

I don't think we need any buildings in Cuzco at the moment so when it finishes the ax have it build a couple of workers using the lower food cottage tiles if you can while the dyes and incense get their plantations up and running.

 

[Bezhukov]

Bede has it right, though we need to let it grow first (grab the pig to speed this along once the axe finishes unless Macchu needs it) as the incense will be online in 3-5 turns (there are three workers in the vicinity, one roading it already).

 

[leif erikson]

Thanks for the advice. I see what we need to do as we need more workers. It is rather nice for growth to cease when Workers or Settlers are being built, except early in the game!

I would like to continue this for a minute and discuss the longer term management of Cuzco, both in terms of our situation and city management generally. As we are trying to maximize gold production, I assume we will be chopping the forests along the river and building cottages there. I also assume that we will want to assign several specialists in this city and that requires a food surplus of 2 food per specialist.

As there are no more 1 food tiles available within the "fat cross", should we irrigate one of the grass tiles to the south of the city to bring us back to an even amount of food? Also, why did we build cottages on the non-river tiles instead of chopping the forests to get the gold bonus of cottaging on the river? Did we need those hammers and will we need them in the future?

Do we need to build an Aquaduct in Cuzco? And it is generally a good idea to build a Courthouse in the capital? I see the maintenance is currently 1 GPT, so a courthouse wouldn't help much, atm.

Once Calendar is complete, looks like we should be headed for Optics full speed ahead. It requires Metal Casting, Machinery and Compass. On this route we also pick up Mace's, so I don't see a reason to detour to Horseback Riding.

 

[Bezhukov]

Brad, congrats on the GOTM-2 finish! 1100AD conquest win - impressive!

 

[Bezhukov]

"I assume we will be chopping the forests along the river and building cottages there. I also assume that we will want to assign several specialists in this city and that requires a food surplus of 2 food per specialist."

Well, you know what they say about assume, lets prevent you and me becoming asses. We need to keep the two forests for health for the time being, as Cuzco is not coastal and thus cannot benefit from a harbor.

Being financial, we also don't want to run ANY specialists if we can help it, as the more cottages we work, the more commerce we bust out, and specialists each eat food, requiring farms to feed them, and farms make significantly less commerce than cottages, but this goes especially for the capital, where every commerce enjoys lots of multiplication.

Brad's CS strategy involves merchant specialists outside the capital to keep research high on capital cottages, but under no circumstances do we want specialists in the capital if we can help it.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Nice turns, Bez, and thanks for posting good details on your MMing. Alt-tabbing still works for me when we are this early in the game, but like you I have to resort to pen and paper later in the game.

I'm still keeping track of our whips (or trying to). It looks like you had 2, so that means we have whipped a total of 3 times, for a total of 90-180 hammers.

If your workboat finds more land, I'm going to feel like a Boob. I never noticed that break in the ocean surrounding us. Nice job on spotting it.

Thanx regarding GoTM2. Cudos on your 1842 cultural win as well! In my book, that gives you highest scoring culture win! (I always close my eyes and pretend that DaveMcW’s scores don’t exist…helps my self esteem).

I agree on not running any specialists until we jump to CS with one exception: I would hire a priest in Tiwanaku as soon as his temple is done, and also hire an engineer as soon as he gets a forge. He is already 25% of the way to generating a Great Priest, and Shrine income would help us out a great deal right now. In fact, it would eliminate needing to run 3 of the Merchants we were talking about earlier.

Feel free to play whenever you are ready, Leif. I won’t be able to play today. I got caught up in reading a few books this past week, and now I’m in danger of not finishing GoTM3. If I have time today I will probably play that instead.

Regarding the numerous questions on our capitol’s management:

I would cut down those forests on the river by Cuzco. We actually should have done that long before now. We are losing out on a lot of commerce by not working cottages on those tiles. Health will be ok without the trees: with the luxuries we will soon have, Cuzco will have a happy limit of 10, and with the crabs hooked up the health limit will be the same.

You are right about it being a mistake to work cottages off-river before those on the river. If we had begun working river cottages as soon as we were able, two of them would already be hamlets at this point. We also need to take full advantage of the cities that have overlap tiles with the capitol. Whenever possible, those cottages should be worked by cities other than the capitol until they become hamlets.

I agree with Bez totally on never running any specialists in Cuzco. I also wouldn’t worry about having an odd number of food or anything like that: we can always MM the city to run with a food deficit for a few turns if we need to.

We won’t need to build any aqueducts on our island in this game, except for in the city that builds the Hanging Gardens (Tiwanaku). As long as we send missionaries out on our caravels, we should be able to make a friend and trade for a grain resource or two. That will take care of health until our military provides a more permanent supply of resources.

In a quick military win game, I usually never get around to building a courthouse in the capitol: by the time maintenance costs rise there, it is often more important to keep churning out the military.

 

[Bezhukov]

"I would hire a priest in Tiwanaku as soon as his temple is done"

Bingo. I was thinking the same thing, though its a shame not to work all the wonderful tiles it has! We need to make sure to keep the iron and grass hill worked after they're mined if we want to snag HG though.

The GOTM cultural was more of a "game's in hand, have some fun" thing, as I was already well past the required techs for a hard-core culture win, not that I would have rivaled DaveMcW's time anyway. I enjoy flipping cities and got eight as I recall in that one before legendary.

 

[Bezhukov]

I do not share Brad's sanguinity about capital health, perhaps that's because I like to crank up the pop as soon as the culture slider becomes available, at which point health usually becomes the limiting factor. Pls leave the forests until we use up the river slots we already have at least, geez. There are still two that haven't even been cottaged. Not having a harbor, the capital will need an aqueduct in the medium term.

 

[leif erikson]

I do not share Brad's sanguinity about capital health, perhaps that's because I like to crank up the pop as soon as the culture slider becomes available, at which point health usually becomes the limiting factor. Pls leave the forests until we use up the river slots we already have at least, geez. There are still two that haven't even been cottaged. Not having a harbor, the capital will need an aqueduct in the medium term.

There is only one unused grass tile uncottaged on the river. But, as I understand it, isn't each forest worth 0.5 health, so we need both forests to make 1 point? If one goes, then both may as well go?

Looking things over, this is what I think the priorities are (and please feel free to correct me):
1. We need to push out some workers after the axe in Cuzco.
2. After Calendar, we need to head for Optics, full speed ahead.
3. Need to get Insence and Dyes hooked up as soon as possible.
4. We need to defend Cori up north from the Barb Axe headed our way. I am pretty worried about this as the Axe has a +50% against melee units, so it will be 7.5 to 2 against our Quechua, not very good odds! I hope they attack the Quechua on the hill instead of by-passing them and heading for the city. Then I'll have to attack... Or is it better to pull all the Quechua back into Cori and try to defend until I can get the Axe from Cuz up there?
5. After the Temple completes in Tiwanaku, next build is Courthouse or a settler? And we hire a Priest? Also, why are we working an irrigated plains rather than a cottaged grass (that is currently a hamlet)?
6. Use the workboat to further explore to the east?

I don't think I'll get any settlers built during these turns, but I assume we are going with the 3-5 city plan and chopping not only a Granary in Cori but also a Courthouse. Getting that Dye on line may take some time as it is also jungle, which will need to be chopped. The worker there is on the Forest Hill, to chop the granary? I'll need another worker up there to do the Dye as the worker there chops for hammers.

As far as chopping in the capital. We could build a worker, chop a worker and then chop an aqueduct. I was kind of thinking of a settler though.

How about Machu Picchu, next build a Library or an Axeman. We will need some military as all our gold is going into research. We only have 2 Gold and running at -2 GPT atm. Changing the citizen in Tiwanaku will get us to -1 GPT, but that isn't much improvement.

Need some cottages down in Olly too.

Much to do this evening!!