Gedemon's Civilization, development thread
- Thread starter Gedemon
- Start date
Another draft for an unit upgrade tree (land units), showing some possible equipment classes (each class could represent multiple equipment type, for example Swords class: bronze swords, iron swords, steel swords)
"Infantry" and "Cavalry" are "melee" units, all the others are "support" units (stacking with melee)
All ranged units have a range of one, until rocket artillery. Relative ranges will be represented by the ability to provide various counter/support fire (or not)
Starting at the first "Skirmisher" unit, the "Recon" line will gain a ranged attack similar to the ranged line of "Light Infantry", and starting with musket, the "Infantry" line can "return fire" against the "Ranged" and "Recon" light infantry units
[table=head]|Ancient|Classical|Medieval|Discovery|Industrial|Machine|Arms Race|Atomic|Information
Infantry| blunt weapons + ancient armor (warrior)|swords + ancient armors + shields|medieval weapons + medieval armors|Musket|Rifled musket (Line infantry) upgrading to Rifle (Riflemen)|Repeating rifle + Combat Helmet (infantry)|Automatic rifle + Combat Helmet (infantry)|Assault Rifle + Combat Helmet (infantry)|Assault Rifle +Combat Helmet (infantry)
Infantry (alternate)|spear + light armor |spear + light armor|Pikes + medieval armors|(upgrading to musket)|||(motorized Infantry)|(mechanized infantry)
Cavalry|(chariot)|(horsemen)|(knights)|(lancer)|Rifle (cavalry)|Repeating rifle (cavalry)|(tank)|(main battle tank)|modern armor
Cavalry (alternate)||||||(landship)|(heavy tank)|(upgrading to main battle tank)
Light Infantry (recon)|light weapons (scout)||(explorer)|Musket (skirmisher)|Rifled musket (skirmisher) upgrading to Rifle (skirmisher)|Repeating rifle (scout on horses)|Automatic rifle + Combat Helmet (commando)|Assault Rifle + Combat Helmet (special forces)|Assault Rifle + Combat Helmet (special forces)
Light Infantry (ranged)|(slinger)|(archer)|(longbowman)|(upgrading to skirmisher)
Light Infantry (direct fire)| | |(crossbowman)|small cannons (culverin, volley gun)|(gatling gun)||(machine gun)
Light Infantry (anti-vehicule)| | | | | ||(AT crew)|(modern AT)
Artillery||(catapult)|(trebuchet)|(bombard)|(field cannon)|(howitzer gun)||(rocket artillery)
Artillery (alternate)||(ballista)||(upgrading to bombard)|||(Field gun)|(upgrading to rocket artillery)
Anti-Air| | | | | ||(AA-Gun)|(Mobile SAM)
[/table]
"Infantry" and "Cavalry" are "melee" units, all the others are "support" units (stacking with melee)
All ranged units have a range of one, until rocket artillery. Relative ranges will be represented by the ability to provide various counter/support fire (or not)
Starting at the first "Skirmisher" unit, the "Recon" line will gain a ranged attack similar to the ranged line of "Light Infantry", and starting with musket, the "Infantry" line can "return fire" against the "Ranged" and "Recon" light infantry units
[table=head]|Ancient|Classical|Medieval|Discovery|Industrial|Machine|Arms Race|Atomic|Information
Infantry| blunt weapons + ancient armor (warrior)|swords + ancient armors + shields|medieval weapons + medieval armors|Musket|Rifled musket (Line infantry) upgrading to Rifle (Riflemen)|Repeating rifle + Combat Helmet (infantry)|Automatic rifle + Combat Helmet (infantry)|Assault Rifle + Combat Helmet (infantry)|Assault Rifle +Combat Helmet (infantry)
Infantry (alternate)|spear + light armor |spear + light armor|Pikes + medieval armors|(upgrading to musket)|||(motorized Infantry)|(mechanized infantry)
Cavalry|(chariot)|(horsemen)|(knights)|(lancer)|Rifle (cavalry)|Repeating rifle (cavalry)|(tank)|(main battle tank)|modern armor
Cavalry (alternate)||||||(landship)|(heavy tank)|(upgrading to main battle tank)
Light Infantry (recon)|light weapons (scout)||(explorer)|Musket (skirmisher)|Rifled musket (skirmisher) upgrading to Rifle (skirmisher)|Repeating rifle (scout on horses)|Automatic rifle + Combat Helmet (commando)|Assault Rifle + Combat Helmet (special forces)|Assault Rifle + Combat Helmet (special forces)
Light Infantry (ranged)|(slinger)|(archer)|(longbowman)|(upgrading to skirmisher)
Light Infantry (direct fire)| | |(crossbowman)|small cannons (culverin, volley gun)|(gatling gun)||(machine gun)
Light Infantry (anti-vehicule)| | | | | ||(AT crew)|(modern AT)
Artillery||(catapult)|(trebuchet)|(bombard)|(field cannon)|(howitzer gun)||(rocket artillery)
Artillery (alternate)||(ballista)||(upgrading to bombard)|||(Field gun)|(upgrading to rocket artillery)
Anti-Air| | | | | ||(AA-Gun)|(Mobile SAM)
[/table]
Ok, I think I'm going to try the standing army / mobilized army concept, the table above will have to be redone, with units specifics to a standing army, or, as discussed previously, related to the social position of the drafted personnel (social class ratio when mobilizing could be linked to policies)
For example, units using swords (or knights) would then be either part of a standing army or spawned from mobilized upper class citizen.
For example, units using swords (or knights) would then be either part of a standing army or spawned from mobilized upper class citizen.
Knasp
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2011
- Messages
- 266
Cool! I'd like to offer some suggestions, but what is the approximate time span of each era?
Is it something like:
Ancient = 3500 - 800 BC
Classical = 800 BC - 600 AD
Medieval = 600 - 1400
Discovery = 1400 - 1760
Industrial = 1760 - 1880
Machine = 1880 - 1920
Arms Race = 1920 - 1945
Atomic = 1945 - 1980
Information = 1980 - 2020
For example, I'm curious if you intend the Classical era to start with iron metallurgy c.1500 BC, or invention of Steel c.1300 BC, or c.800 BC when Classical antiquity "starts".
That's a good and important question. And a difficult one if we want to avoir Eurocentrism.
I may get around that difficulty by simply avoiding a calendar in the final mod (just using turns number and the age of the most advanced -known- civilization where it's actually shown), but for development we need to refer to it.
As in Civilization we refer to technological advancement, maybe we should split the ancient era in the three ages (stone, bronze, iron), linked to the previous discussion with dunkleosteus and the need to have starting units requiring far less personnel than the current Warrior, which means that it would be better to have the actual "Warrior" represented by 3 versions (same for spearmen).
I may get around that difficulty by simply avoiding a calendar in the final mod (just using turns number and the age of the most advanced -known- civilization where it's actually shown), but for development we need to refer to it.
As in Civilization we refer to technological advancement, maybe we should split the ancient era in the three ages (stone, bronze, iron), linked to the previous discussion with dunkleosteus and the need to have starting units requiring far less personnel than the current Warrior, which means that it would be better to have the actual "Warrior" represented by 3 versions (same for spearmen).
I've finished to code the base for the multiple equipment per unit mechanism, including reserving equipment during construction and allocating it when the unit spawn on the map, and sending the equipment to units requiring it through supply line, as well as sending back surplus (when the unit is receiving better equipment that what's it's currently using)
Still need to code the "combat casualties" and "healing" for equipment, and we'll have something to test.
Still need to code the "combat casualties" and "healing" for equipment, and we'll have something to test.
Knasp
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2011
- Messages
- 266
Looking good! Would it be possible to gain the equipment from defeated enemies? That would be really cool.
Yes, that's part of the design.
ATM you capture personnel and materiel, equipment will come later.
Updated on gitHub but still unplayable (healing won't work / mess units composition)
Code:
- bug fix : make sure that script filenames are unique between mods (compatibility with current YnAMP development version)
- add equipment values on units flags
- equipment price/cost and storage is now relative to size
- buildings can change storage space for Equipment
- add small debug function Dline() to show current line in code as Lua's debug library is nil in script/UI context
- some bug fixes to function related to handle resource stock and production
- handle equipment requirement for production limitations
- handle sending and receiving equipment from cities to units
- allocate resources to industries proportionally to each building needs
- handle equipment casualties in combat
- handle attribution of equipment to new units
- bug fix to city panel and construction list not updating in some cases (production change or research completed)Leyrann
Deity
Would it be possible to make something like the calendar toggable? I always try to beat the date in my science, like getting nuclear fission in the 1700s and things like that.
Now that I have advanced on the equipment mechanism, let's talk a bit about the units themselve.
An unit will be defined by its level of organization (personnel size, unit name and base strength) and the classes of equipment it will have access to (blunt weapons, swords, spear/pikes, ...)
Which would means that you could have an unit with a low organisation level (ie a "band of warrior") but with later era equipment ("steel warhammer"), making them much more stronger than a "band of warrior" with "wooden clubs", but maybe not as much as a "Men-at-arms company", even one with "wooden clubs".
Names and equipment types are just example, I count on everyone for suggestions...
edit: typo
An unit will be defined by its level of organization (personnel size, unit name and base strength) and the classes of equipment it will have access to (blunt weapons, swords, spear/pikes, ...)
Which would means that you could have an unit with a low organisation level (ie a "band of warrior") but with later era equipment ("steel warhammer"), making them much more stronger than a "band of warrior" with "wooden clubs", but maybe not as much as a "Men-at-arms company", even one with "wooden clubs".
Names and equipment types are just example, I count on everyone for suggestions...
edit: typo
Last edited:
Leyrann
Deity
I like that.
Strength comes from numbers, organization, training and equipment, where I'd argue that organization and training would go hand in hand and should probably fall under one denominator, where just "organization" would do fine.
I would assume then, that strength would be a level of equipment, multiplied by a level of organization, multiplied by the amount of soldiers?
All things would handle different parts, I assume. Equipment would probably be a baseline - it gives an amount of strength, which is then augmented one way or another by the organization and raw amount of soldiers.
After the baseline is set - a strength per soldier - it is then multiplied by the amount of soldiers. This should not, however, be a simple, straight multiplier, because if numbers on one side are larger, then those larger numbers will allow them to earn a larger advantage, further increasing the difference, which leads to a kind of snowball effect, where their advantage starts to stack up, so an army of 10000 would probably twice as strong as an army of 7000, despite not having twice the numbers.
Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, the organization comes around. First, and most obviously, more trained soldiers will work together better, allowing them to overcome number differences by making less mistakes and therefore dying less, as well as holding out better in a losing battle, not letting it turn into a rout. Additionally, a higher level of organization will allow for better coordination, meaning that a negative number difference matters less as your troops are positioned better, while a positive number difference matters more as, again, your troops are positioned better. Lastly, a higher level of organization may partly negative a technology advantage in an enemy army, as your army will be prepared to deal with it, maybe in the battle itself, maybe in the troop movements. So, long story short, a better level of organization would mean less men lost per round (I kinda assume that combat works with rounds like in IV, but I have to admit I have no idea), a smaller disadvantage while outnumbered, a bigger advantage when outnumbering and a smaller penalty for going up against superior weaponry.
(oh, and it's "wooden", not "wodden")
Strength comes from numbers, organization, training and equipment, where I'd argue that organization and training would go hand in hand and should probably fall under one denominator, where just "organization" would do fine.
I would assume then, that strength would be a level of equipment, multiplied by a level of organization, multiplied by the amount of soldiers?
All things would handle different parts, I assume. Equipment would probably be a baseline - it gives an amount of strength, which is then augmented one way or another by the organization and raw amount of soldiers.
After the baseline is set - a strength per soldier - it is then multiplied by the amount of soldiers. This should not, however, be a simple, straight multiplier, because if numbers on one side are larger, then those larger numbers will allow them to earn a larger advantage, further increasing the difference, which leads to a kind of snowball effect, where their advantage starts to stack up, so an army of 10000 would probably twice as strong as an army of 7000, despite not having twice the numbers.
Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, the organization comes around. First, and most obviously, more trained soldiers will work together better, allowing them to overcome number differences by making less mistakes and therefore dying less, as well as holding out better in a losing battle, not letting it turn into a rout. Additionally, a higher level of organization will allow for better coordination, meaning that a negative number difference matters less as your troops are positioned better, while a positive number difference matters more as, again, your troops are positioned better. Lastly, a higher level of organization may partly negative a technology advantage in an enemy army, as your army will be prepared to deal with it, maybe in the battle itself, maybe in the troop movements. So, long story short, a better level of organization would mean less men lost per round (I kinda assume that combat works with rounds like in IV, but I have to admit I have no idea), a smaller disadvantage while outnumbered, a bigger advantage when outnumbering and a smaller penalty for going up against superior weaponry.
(oh, and it's "wooden", not "wodden")
thanks, "wooden" fixed in my post 
update on gitHub:
This was the last bit of code to handle the equipment transfer/production from raw resources to an unit's frontline via supply line and reserve, including capture from other units and sending back surplus to cities.
Now I need to add a bit more of equipment in the database to test it...
Because I do expect some bugs at this point...
BTW If you are willing to modmod and play a bit with values, open Equipment.xml and Buildings.xml in \my games\Sid Meier's Civilization VI\Mods\Ged Civilization Overhaul\Data
There are only 2 units (remembrer that everything is temporary/placeholder for testing purpose) using equipment ATM:
An equipment/resource that you haven't unlocked by tech can't be produced in your buildings (or collected from the map) BUT it can be captured when fighting an unit using it or gained from your trade network, and it can also by used/transferred by/to your own units (if they can use that class of equipment).
For now they do not affect combat as they will when I'll apply promotions based on equipment percentage to an unit, they only affect the "anti personnel" value of your unit (the ratio of dead/wounded/prisoners from an unit's frontline casualties after a combat)
What's planned is to have units with a base strength value, representing the combat capacity of that unit when using the lowest kind of equipment in the classes it can use.
Based on the composition of the equipment class in frontline, the attribute of the units will change, and some "fake" promotions will be applied to raise its strength.
When two units enter combat, the value of the damage dealt (ie "frontline casualties") is only defined by the units strength, as described above, but the equipment will also have multiple attributes defining how exactly those "casualties" are applied to the units, like:
update on gitHub:
Code:
add code to handle equipment transfer from reserve to frontline when "healing"This was the last bit of code to handle the equipment transfer/production from raw resources to an unit's frontline via supply line and reserve, including capture from other units and sending back surplus to cities.
Now I need to add a bit more of equipment in the database to test it...
Because I do expect some bugs at this point...
BTW If you are willing to modmod and play a bit with values, open Equipment.xml and Buildings.xml in \my games\Sid Meier's Civilization VI\Mods\Ged Civilization Overhaul\Data
There are only 2 units (remembrer that everything is temporary/placeholder for testing purpose) using equipment ATM:
- Warrior ("Blunt" weapons class: Wooden Club, Stone Axes, Spiked Club)
- Swordsmen (Swords class : Bronze, Iron, Steel)
- Carpenter: Wooden Club (from Wood)
- Stone Mason : Stone Axes (from Stone)
- "City Center": Wooden Club, Stone Axes (the number are very low ATM, I do need to lower the requirement of the warrior to balance things at start)
- BlackSmith : Spiked Clubs (from Copper), Iron Swords (from Iron) (yes, I need to add the other swords here)
An equipment/resource that you haven't unlocked by tech can't be produced in your buildings (or collected from the map) BUT it can be captured when fighting an unit using it or gained from your trade network, and it can also by used/transferred by/to your own units (if they can use that class of equipment).
For now they do not affect combat as they will when I'll apply promotions based on equipment percentage to an unit, they only affect the "anti personnel" value of your unit (the ratio of dead/wounded/prisoners from an unit's frontline casualties after a combat)
What's planned is to have units with a base strength value, representing the combat capacity of that unit when using the lowest kind of equipment in the classes it can use.
Based on the composition of the equipment class in frontline, the attribute of the units will change, and some "fake" promotions will be applied to raise its strength.
When two units enter combat, the value of the damage dealt (ie "frontline casualties") is only defined by the units strength, as described above, but the equipment will also have multiple attributes defining how exactly those "casualties" are applied to the units, like:
- AntiPersonnel: higher value raise the ratio of death in the enemy unit (personnel casualties from frontline can be: dead, wounded, captured)
- Desirability : Units request equipment types of higher desirability first (Your personnel will prefer to use Steel swords over Bronze swords)
- Toughness: higher value lower the ratio of loss of that equipment type compared to lower equipment type (for example losing relatively less Steel Swords than Bronze swords)
- PersonnelArmor : higher value lower the ratio of death in your unit (not coded yet)
- AntiPersonnelArmor : higher value lower the effect of PersonnelArmor in the other unit (not coded yet)
Knasp
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2011
- Messages
- 266
I wanted to compile a preliminary suggestion for units & equipment regarding the Ancient-Classical era. The table below is a suggestion loosely based on the history of ancient Egypt (Old, middle, new kingdoms), the empire of Persia and classical Greece (and a little China).
The most common weapon of the Ancient Era is the bow and arrow. And therefore it is also logical that the most common form of protection is a large rectangular shield. One problem with planning units and equipment for the Ancient Eras is that before 2700 BC you don't really see any specialization or division of soldiers due to weaponry. Beginning with the Old Kingdom however, the very basic structure of archers/skirmishers and spearmen is established.
Would love to hear some comments/thoughts/feedback:
[table=head]|Pre-Bow (50,000-10,000 BC)|Pre-Ancient (c.10,000-3000 BC)|Archaic period (3000-2500)|Old-Middle Kingdom (2500-1500)|New Kingdom (1500-1000)|Early Iron Age (1000-500)|Later Iron Age (500-0)
Light Infantry (ranged)|clubs, javelins,spears (stone,flint)*, slings (pebbles)|horn bows (flint')/slings|simple wood bows (flint)/rarely recurve bows (copper)/slings|bows (flint,bronze)/slings|improved recurve bows (bronze)/composite bows (bronze)/slings|recurve bows (bronze,iron)/composite bows (bronze,iron)/slings (lead bullets)|crossbows (bronze/iron)
Light Infantry (close)|||large shields (wood/reed) + spears/javelins (flint/copper), clubs|spears/javelins (flint/bronze) + large shields||spears/swords, javelins (bronze/iron) + medium-large shields, maybe helmet (bronze/iron)|
Heavy Infantry||||rare bronze swords,axes + large shields|swords/axes/maces (bronze) + shields|(immortals) scale armor + shields + spears/swords, bows/slings|(thorakitai)(roman legionaries)
Heavy Infantry (alternate)||||||(hoplites)|(phalangites/pikemen)
Cavalry (skirmishers)||||chariots + shields + bows + spears + javelins (bronze)|chariots + scale armor (bronze) + composite bows|(horsemen) javelins + spears + swords, maybe bows and armor|(horse archer) composite bow + spears + maybe armor
Cavalry (alternate)|||||||(cataphracts) long spears (2-handed) + armor + swords, maybe horse armor
Artillery (anti-personnel)|||||||(ballista)
Artillery (anti-fortifications)|||||||(catapult)
Artillery (alternate)|||||||(traction trebutchet)
[/table]
When it comes to unarmored combat, metal doesn't really offer any advantage in regards to flint (or the more rare obsidian) arrow- and spearheads. And the simple curved bows are better suited for flint arrowheads, whilst recurve bows and later composite bows generally require arrowheads of metal to be effective. Recurve and composite bows are also more costly to produce and maintain (moisture sensitive).
You need bronze or iron to make effective armors and arrowheads for recurve/composite bows (because copper is too soft). However, many metals (copper, meteoric iron, tin, lead etc) were quite expensive and desired for other uses in Ancient history. Especially tin (required for bronze) is a rare metal, meaning for example that Egypt had to import all its tin for bronze production.
The most common weapon of the Ancient Era is the bow and arrow. And therefore it is also logical that the most common form of protection is a large rectangular shield. One problem with planning units and equipment for the Ancient Eras is that before 2700 BC you don't really see any specialization or division of soldiers due to weaponry. Beginning with the Old Kingdom however, the very basic structure of archers/skirmishers and spearmen is established.
Would love to hear some comments/thoughts/feedback:
[table=head]|Pre-Bow (50,000-10,000 BC)|Pre-Ancient (c.10,000-3000 BC)|Archaic period (3000-2500)|Old-Middle Kingdom (2500-1500)|New Kingdom (1500-1000)|Early Iron Age (1000-500)|Later Iron Age (500-0)
Light Infantry (ranged)|clubs, javelins,spears (stone,flint)*, slings (pebbles)|horn bows (flint')/slings|simple wood bows (flint)/rarely recurve bows (copper)/slings|bows (flint,bronze)/slings|improved recurve bows (bronze)/composite bows (bronze)/slings|recurve bows (bronze,iron)/composite bows (bronze,iron)/slings (lead bullets)|crossbows (bronze/iron)
Light Infantry (close)|||large shields (wood/reed) + spears/javelins (flint/copper), clubs|spears/javelins (flint/bronze) + large shields||spears/swords, javelins (bronze/iron) + medium-large shields, maybe helmet (bronze/iron)|
Heavy Infantry||||rare bronze swords,axes + large shields|swords/axes/maces (bronze) + shields|(immortals) scale armor + shields + spears/swords, bows/slings|(thorakitai)(roman legionaries)
Heavy Infantry (alternate)||||||(hoplites)|(phalangites/pikemen)
Cavalry (skirmishers)||||chariots + shields + bows + spears + javelins (bronze)|chariots + scale armor (bronze) + composite bows|(horsemen) javelins + spears + swords, maybe bows and armor|(horse archer) composite bow + spears + maybe armor
Cavalry (alternate)|||||||(cataphracts) long spears (2-handed) + armor + swords, maybe horse armor
Artillery (anti-personnel)|||||||(ballista)
Artillery (anti-fortifications)|||||||(catapult)
Artillery (alternate)|||||||(traction trebutchet)
[/table]
*() = within brackets I've specified either names of historical unit, or the materials commonly used for weapons, equipment and missiles (arrowheads etc).
, = Mixed use within same unit
/ = Alternative weapons and equipment, that are more optional and differing between units
+ = Combinations of weapons and equipment
, = Mixed use within same unit
/ = Alternative weapons and equipment, that are more optional and differing between units
+ = Combinations of weapons and equipment
When it comes to unarmored combat, metal doesn't really offer any advantage in regards to flint (or the more rare obsidian) arrow- and spearheads. And the simple curved bows are better suited for flint arrowheads, whilst recurve bows and later composite bows generally require arrowheads of metal to be effective. Recurve and composite bows are also more costly to produce and maintain (moisture sensitive).
You need bronze or iron to make effective armors and arrowheads for recurve/composite bows (because copper is too soft). However, many metals (copper, meteoric iron, tin, lead etc) were quite expensive and desired for other uses in Ancient history. Especially tin (required for bronze) is a rare metal, meaning for example that Egypt had to import all its tin for bronze production.
Last edited:
Teiwaz93
Chieftain
- Joined
- May 16, 2016
- Messages
- 11
hello everyone
dont want to confuse anybody but i had an idea that might work (might not) regarding multiple POPs per tile
i mostly programm object orientated and have no experinces with modding any civ so this might not be doable
my idea was to construct some sort of class around the POPs and let them have certain bonuses if a POP is to be considered a certain number of population
this would mean you start with one POP with the starting amount of people in it but as time goes on it grows and may unlock bonuses to production/gold/food and in time it will spawn a new POP once it has gotten big enough
just wanted to throw this in here so you can think about it ... maybe you like maybe you can change and improve it or maybe it cant be done at all
dont want to confuse anybody but i had an idea that might work (might not) regarding multiple POPs per tile
i mostly programm object orientated and have no experinces with modding any civ so this might not be doable
my idea was to construct some sort of class around the POPs and let them have certain bonuses if a POP is to be considered a certain number of population
this would mean you start with one POP with the starting amount of people in it but as time goes on it grows and may unlock bonuses to production/gold/food and in time it will spawn a new POP once it has gotten big enough
just wanted to throw this in here so you can think about it ... maybe you like maybe you can change and improve it or maybe it cant be done at all
Gedemon, I realize it’s still early days in the development of your incredibly complicated mod, so please don’t take my comments below as criticism, but merely as observations.
I downloaded the "stable" preview version last night, and started playing a game to check out all the changes. I got through about 100 turns, then saved and shut down. This morning I resumed the game, but after a couple of turns it froze up on me and I had to quit. Oh well.
The experience was quite fascinating, but also overwhelming. So much to take in!
Anyway, here are my notes:
1. I definitely miss having specific Civ/Leader traits and agendas, adding some variety instead of having everyone be generic. I know you’ve said something about making those traits dynamic and earned, which could be cool. But that was one of the additions to Civ 6 that I really liked.
2. It’s kind of disappointing to get nothing but 40 gold from goody huts. No Eurekas or anything else. Is that only a temporary adjustment?
3. Speaking of gold, I can’t use it for anything. I can’t purchase units or buy tiles, even though it seems like I have enough money to do so. Is that mechanism not yet activated?
4. Maybe it was just the particular game I was playing, but the barbarians seemed even more numerous and aggressive than usual. Did you change some parameters there?
5. There’s so much new happening in battles, with stacking, wounded, delayed deaths, supply lines, etc. Like I said, a whole lot of new stuff to take in, and the info displayed in the upward scroll between turns goes by so fast you can’t see it all. Maybe as I get more used to this, I’ll be able to comprehend it better and figure out just what it means.
6. I like your concept for Housing, with different classes. But its current implementation seems arbitrary or at least unpredictable. I never know from turn to turn whether I have enough housing or not. It seems like everything’s fine, and then on the next turn I get that ugly red house that tells me I’m in trouble again.
7. Production is also confusing. It’s hard to tell what I can make and how long it will take. At some point I think this system, however it works, could benefit from a much more informative UI, or at least a thorough tutorial.
8. I’m very excited to see what you’ll do with Science. That decrepit tech tree has long been one of the most unsatisfying parts of the game.
9. Finally, I just can’t overstate how impressed I am that you have taken on such a massive project. You must be either brilliant and dedicated, or simply insane.
I downloaded the "stable" preview version last night, and started playing a game to check out all the changes. I got through about 100 turns, then saved and shut down. This morning I resumed the game, but after a couple of turns it froze up on me and I had to quit. Oh well.
The experience was quite fascinating, but also overwhelming. So much to take in!
Anyway, here are my notes:
1. I definitely miss having specific Civ/Leader traits and agendas, adding some variety instead of having everyone be generic. I know you’ve said something about making those traits dynamic and earned, which could be cool. But that was one of the additions to Civ 6 that I really liked.
2. It’s kind of disappointing to get nothing but 40 gold from goody huts. No Eurekas or anything else. Is that only a temporary adjustment?
3. Speaking of gold, I can’t use it for anything. I can’t purchase units or buy tiles, even though it seems like I have enough money to do so. Is that mechanism not yet activated?
4. Maybe it was just the particular game I was playing, but the barbarians seemed even more numerous and aggressive than usual. Did you change some parameters there?
5. There’s so much new happening in battles, with stacking, wounded, delayed deaths, supply lines, etc. Like I said, a whole lot of new stuff to take in, and the info displayed in the upward scroll between turns goes by so fast you can’t see it all. Maybe as I get more used to this, I’ll be able to comprehend it better and figure out just what it means.
6. I like your concept for Housing, with different classes. But its current implementation seems arbitrary or at least unpredictable. I never know from turn to turn whether I have enough housing or not. It seems like everything’s fine, and then on the next turn I get that ugly red house that tells me I’m in trouble again.
7. Production is also confusing. It’s hard to tell what I can make and how long it will take. At some point I think this system, however it works, could benefit from a much more informative UI, or at least a thorough tutorial.
8. I’m very excited to see what you’ll do with Science. That decrepit tech tree has long been one of the most unsatisfying parts of the game.
9. Finally, I just can’t overstate how impressed I am that you have taken on such a massive project. You must be either brilliant and dedicated, or simply insane.
Last edited:
Knasp
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2011
- Messages
- 266
I've got another idea regarding military units and gold purchasing. Maybe all of the units available by gold purchase could be Mercenary units.
The recruitment cost could be low but the upkeep cost high. You could even have a time limit for how long they would stay in your service, similar to the "city conscription/emergency drafting" previously discussed. The number of turns that they're at your service would represent the length of their contracts. For example: the Persian (Achaemenid) Empire hired a lot of different mercenaries, especially when defending against Alexander's Macedonian armies. They hired Indian War Elephants with crews, and even Greek Hoplites. The Greeks in turn employed thracian Peltasts. The Egyptians employed Nubian Archers, perhaps starting off as prisoners of war. Some rulers even used foreign troops as bodyguards, because they were less likely to take political sides.
Basically Mercenaries were unit types which the Civ couldn't produce themselves, or whose skill and training was hard to match.
Is it at all possible to "save" units that are disbanded? Because then once a contract has expired, you could rehire the same unit (more expensive of course) but with replenished manpower, intact experience and promotions, maybe even improved equipment. It would be really cool if the pool of mercenaries would be shared between Civ's, and the units more or less permanent. It would be simply awesome to face mercenary units, that were previously on your side. A destroyed mercenary unit would slowly be restored after some time, and then become available for hire once more.
Even if a permanent roster of individual/legacy mercenary units isn't possible to implement, there are many possible conditions/sources for the availability of Mercenary units:
The recruitment cost could be low but the upkeep cost high. You could even have a time limit for how long they would stay in your service, similar to the "city conscription/emergency drafting" previously discussed. The number of turns that they're at your service would represent the length of their contracts. For example: the Persian (Achaemenid) Empire hired a lot of different mercenaries, especially when defending against Alexander's Macedonian armies. They hired Indian War Elephants with crews, and even Greek Hoplites. The Greeks in turn employed thracian Peltasts. The Egyptians employed Nubian Archers, perhaps starting off as prisoners of war. Some rulers even used foreign troops as bodyguards, because they were less likely to take political sides.
Basically Mercenaries were unit types which the Civ couldn't produce themselves, or whose skill and training was hard to match.
Is it at all possible to "save" units that are disbanded? Because then once a contract has expired, you could rehire the same unit (more expensive of course) but with replenished manpower, intact experience and promotions, maybe even improved equipment. It would be really cool if the pool of mercenaries would be shared between Civ's, and the units more or less permanent. It would be simply awesome to face mercenary units, that were previously on your side. A destroyed mercenary unit would slowly be restored after some time, and then become available for hire once more.
Even if a permanent roster of individual/legacy mercenary units isn't possible to implement, there are many possible conditions/sources for the availability of Mercenary units:
- Diffusion by neighbouring Civs. By trade networks, or the neighboring Civ's: military units, production, applications, training, traditions, resources etc.
- Whenever a Civ disbands (or looses) a military unit, that unit type becomes available for Mercenary recruitment.
- Whenever you defeat an enemy unit or capture men in battle, you're more likely to have that kind of unit available as Mercs.
- Mercenary units could become available based on the Era
- Mercs could be based on resources in proximity to the Civ, even unexploited ones.
- Mercs could become available based on the Research level of your Civ.
- Mercs could become available simply because the Civ is lacking the application or tech for that specific unit. (Supply and demand)
- The number of Mercs available for recruitment could depend on the size of the Middle class population of your own or your neighbors cities.
- The greater the military production/development a Civ focuses on, the more and better Mercs will become available for neighbors.
- The lower the military production/development in your own Civ, the more Mercs would become available, since you are more dependent on their services when lacking a national army.
- If you add mechanics of Independence movements/Civil wars, then mercenaries could be a result of such conflicts. Maybe even exiled nobles (inspired by GoT's "The Golden Company")
- If you keep City states in some form, then they could also be a source, especially militaristic.
Last edited:
Knasp
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2011
- Messages
- 266
I have a suggestion regarding recruitment etc:
- Gold
= can be used to hire mercs (temporary expensive soldiers)
- City production of units
= When units are produced in a city, this represents the Standing/Professional army. No time limit but high upkeep.
- City project for conscription
= A project for mustering (temporary?) local troops in a city, as defense against invaders or when preparing for a military campaign. This requires a sizeable Lower class population and stocking of weapons & equipment resources, for maximal gain. Lower upkeep than Professional army.
- Basically all professional soldiers (specifically produced by city) would be recruited from the Middle class population. Their upkeep costs would be less than Mercenaries, but still higher than conscripts/militias.
Edit: Alternatively, you could let all "Light" units from City production, i.e. mostly unarmored archers, skirmishers, spearmen etc, be recruited from the Lower class.
- All chariots/cavalry/airplane pilots would be recruited from Upper classes
- When mustering an army through a city project: i.e. peasants/conscripts/workers/slaves. Their numbers would be extracted from the Lower class population.
- Hiring Mercenaries wouldn't reduce population at all. Although most would probably be Middle class.
Possible policies affecting these factors could be for example:
- Warrior caste - Privileges given to Middle class becoming dedicated warriors = Better equipment and training of standing army. Less income from Middle class taxation.
- Militias - Training/organising peasants for better defense = Faster defense mobilisations, higher experience and/or equipment level of Lower class conscripts/Light units, higher upkeep.
- Vassalage - Subjects required to supply troops for the king's wars = Cheaper Cavalry units/better equipment & training. Less income from Upper class taxation.
Last edited:
@Knasp
Thanks, a lot of good suggestions, I like them.
The idea of conscription using the stocked equipment and the city population has made redondant the ability to buy units that I wanted to reimplement (with units construction representing the standing army in all cases, yes), and mercenaries are the perfect replacement.
As that ability (buying unit) would be a "project" represented by a "fake" building made available on context (like what will be used for conscription), so this doesn't require particular AI coding (but I still need to code the conditions of course...)
Saving units is possible, yes, to a point. I mean the mode already save extra data for units (composition in personnel - materiel - equipment - food - etc..., and a few other things, including turn created and HP), so the code is already here, it's just a matter of adding new entries in the table saved (conscription/contract turn, disbanded at turn, experience & promotions)
But on the technical side I've already tried to lower the data in that table because its serialization (done 2-3 times each turn before "save game" events) in end game on large map could take a few seconds, as it was generating a string of more than a million caracters... In the current code, I'm cleaning it from dead units to prevent this, still there is a limit to what can be kept in it, but eventually I could use an archive table less accessed for disbanded units (and another one for dead units in case we want to access stats - I know some people love end-game stats like which unit had made the more kills, best in offense, defense, etc... Yep, I'm one of them)
So short answer: yes, saving units is possible, part of their attributes are already saved by the mod.
I also like the idea of a "pool of mercenaries", if I had to expand it a bit I'll consider mercenary armies, ie not just single unit (well, initially single units in early eras, then hiring "armies" of 2-5 units until the era where standing armies become the standard)
Barbarian units could also somehow be linked to mercenaries (roaming and looting the map when not under contract), if we can make less agressive barbarian units (ie non-suicidal)
Quick summary, please correct me if I've forgotten something:
Standing Army : unit construction in city, from "personnel" reserve and equipment stock - medium upkeep cost, no auto-disbanding (I need to think about the opportunity to create an "officer" reserve, something I'm pondering since R.E.D. WWII)
Conscription: construction of a one-turn "building-project" spawning unit(s), mostly from "lower class" population, unit type dependant of population classes and available equipment, % from each classes could change with policies, low upkeep, (low) turn limit before disbanding
Mercenaries: buying a "building-project" spawning unit(s), unit type dependant of nearby civilizations context (or/and the mercenary group history), no resources required, high upkeep cost, (medium) turn limit before disbanding
Now, do you think that you could try to include that information somehow in the units table ? Eventually with an estimation/guess of the number of "personnel" required in an "unit" ?
For reference, we'll use division-sized units in latest eras, (ie 5,000 to 10,000 personnel in an "Infantry Divison" units), but lower values for the first units (50-100 for example in a "Hunting Party" ?)
We'll need some kind of progression on which the general balance of the mod will be based (production, growth, ...)
And propositions for unit's "organization" names (could/should change based on the civilization ethnicity ?) are welcome
@Teiwaz93
You mean unstack the population from cities to tiles ?
@qadams
Thanks for the feedback.
1/ We need to make them relevant to the mod mechanisms, so they'll come last, and I'm not sure yet of the way we'll implement them. For example, with a dynamic history, we could have 20 ancient civs to chose from at the beginning of the game, and we may end the game with 40 modern civs, none of them being one of the original 20, but the results of some revolution/civil wars or spawned from colonies...
2/ Temporary, some of the bonuses were breaking the mod completely. They'll be part of a rework of the barbarian/exploration mechanism, and will provide resources/personnel/equipment. They may respawn when under FoW (or in "forgotten" area when revealing terrain will not be made permanent at the beginning of the game)
3/ See the discussion above about mercenaries, you'll also lost gold when producing something in cities (from resources used), which is not activated yet.
4/ Nothing changed at all yet, but that will change (a lot)
5/ I'd like to add a kind of combat log to consult. No ETA
6/ I'll have to check, the notification for housing is not supposed to happen
6/7/ I'll need everyone help on the UI. I'll think I'll add a small bar under the city name with 4-5 icons showing info on mouse over. About production time it's difficult to ask the UI to make fine predictions without lagging because of the amount of parameters involved. Or maybe someone more talented than me can come with some solution. I mean, I'm not a programmer by formation, I'm trying to keep things optimized, and Lua is relatively fast (seems to be faster on civ6 than civ5 BTW), but it's not as fast as C++ may allow.
8/9/ Thanks, that's the continuity of a project that was started with civ5.
Thanks, a lot of good suggestions, I like them.
The idea of conscription using the stocked equipment and the city population has made redondant the ability to buy units that I wanted to reimplement (with units construction representing the standing army in all cases, yes), and mercenaries are the perfect replacement.
As that ability (buying unit) would be a "project" represented by a "fake" building made available on context (like what will be used for conscription), so this doesn't require particular AI coding (but I still need to code the conditions of course...)
Saving units is possible, yes, to a point. I mean the mode already save extra data for units (composition in personnel - materiel - equipment - food - etc..., and a few other things, including turn created and HP), so the code is already here, it's just a matter of adding new entries in the table saved (conscription/contract turn, disbanded at turn, experience & promotions)
But on the technical side I've already tried to lower the data in that table because its serialization (done 2-3 times each turn before "save game" events) in end game on large map could take a few seconds, as it was generating a string of more than a million caracters... In the current code, I'm cleaning it from dead units to prevent this, still there is a limit to what can be kept in it, but eventually I could use an archive table less accessed for disbanded units (and another one for dead units in case we want to access stats - I know some people love end-game stats like which unit had made the more kills, best in offense, defense, etc... Yep, I'm one of them)
So short answer: yes, saving units is possible, part of their attributes are already saved by the mod.
I also like the idea of a "pool of mercenaries", if I had to expand it a bit I'll consider mercenary armies, ie not just single unit (well, initially single units in early eras, then hiring "armies" of 2-5 units until the era where standing armies become the standard)
Barbarian units could also somehow be linked to mercenaries (roaming and looting the map when not under contract), if we can make less agressive barbarian units (ie non-suicidal)
Quick summary, please correct me if I've forgotten something:
Standing Army : unit construction in city, from "personnel" reserve and equipment stock - medium upkeep cost, no auto-disbanding (I need to think about the opportunity to create an "officer" reserve, something I'm pondering since R.E.D. WWII)
Conscription: construction of a one-turn "building-project" spawning unit(s), mostly from "lower class" population, unit type dependant of population classes and available equipment, % from each classes could change with policies, low upkeep, (low) turn limit before disbanding
Mercenaries: buying a "building-project" spawning unit(s), unit type dependant of nearby civilizations context (or/and the mercenary group history), no resources required, high upkeep cost, (medium) turn limit before disbanding
Now, do you think that you could try to include that information somehow in the units table ? Eventually with an estimation/guess of the number of "personnel" required in an "unit" ?
For reference, we'll use division-sized units in latest eras, (ie 5,000 to 10,000 personnel in an "Infantry Divison" units), but lower values for the first units (50-100 for example in a "Hunting Party" ?)
We'll need some kind of progression on which the general balance of the mod will be based (production, growth, ...)
And propositions for unit's "organization" names (could/should change based on the civilization ethnicity ?) are welcome
@Teiwaz93
You mean unstack the population from cities to tiles ?
@qadams
Thanks for the feedback.
1/ We need to make them relevant to the mod mechanisms, so they'll come last, and I'm not sure yet of the way we'll implement them. For example, with a dynamic history, we could have 20 ancient civs to chose from at the beginning of the game, and we may end the game with 40 modern civs, none of them being one of the original 20, but the results of some revolution/civil wars or spawned from colonies...
2/ Temporary, some of the bonuses were breaking the mod completely. They'll be part of a rework of the barbarian/exploration mechanism, and will provide resources/personnel/equipment. They may respawn when under FoW (or in "forgotten" area when revealing terrain will not be made permanent at the beginning of the game)
3/ See the discussion above about mercenaries, you'll also lost gold when producing something in cities (from resources used), which is not activated yet.
4/ Nothing changed at all yet, but that will change (a lot)
5/ I'd like to add a kind of combat log to consult. No ETA
6/ I'll have to check, the notification for housing is not supposed to happen
6/7/ I'll need everyone help on the UI. I'll think I'll add a small bar under the city name with 4-5 icons showing info on mouse over. About production time it's difficult to ask the UI to make fine predictions without lagging because of the amount of parameters involved. Or maybe someone more talented than me can come with some solution. I mean, I'm not a programmer by formation, I'm trying to keep things optimized, and Lua is relatively fast (seems to be faster on civ6 than civ5 BTW), but it's not as fast as C++ may allow.
8/9/ Thanks, that's the continuity of a project that was started with civ5.
