• Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .

Gedemon's Civilization, development thread

Yes, Archery is not in the table because it will be an application (Trapping make sense, as I've not put Hunting)

Scout, Rangers will upgrade to recon units like special forces in late game.

The point of the unlocking mechanism is that you won't spend research on sailing if you've not seen sea resources, build a city on the coast or met a civ that has researched it (and then you'll get some research points by "tech diffusion") . That will apply to techs relative to a resources.
 
Edit: about the Harbor district, I think it could be allowed in later era, with some buildings in the city center if coastal, then a modern version of those in the district allowing access to water to some inland cities, but not from the ancien/classic/medieval eras. A bit complex to code, and require a new UI (and maybe some hack to prevent desyncs in MP), so no promise.

Just spitballing ideas...

- Allow cultural border expansion onto to coastal tiles, with restrictions. For example, allow expansion only onto coastal tiles that pass a water adjacency check of < 3. That would allow for a non-adjacent harbor in minor coves and bays, while maintaining open coastline. In the case of the city itself being coastal, grant it the district on settlement.

- Accumulate culture on coastal tiles only until a tile is claimed. Then, automatically place the district and stop spreading onto water. So, every city that has coast in range eventually gets a harbor.

- Allow some embarked unit to claim a single tile and construct the district. I'm confident the AI can handle this :nope:

I'm sure you've thought of similar concepts, and maybe they aren't viable, or break a design principle.

edit (one more)
-Allow a single expansion district to be placed in owned territory, adjacent to coast. That district is granted an adjacent harbor on completion. The land district could possibly be used for additional housing, or other buildings later.

With all of these, I have in mind the representation of ancient port towns, which were distant suburbs of larger cities. Ostia (Rome), Piraeus (Athens), etc.
 
Last edited:
Good points, I had thought of the first (you got a sea plot when you have 3 owned land plot adjacent to it), the second could work (but no choice from the player, and a risk to get a Harbor where it's not wanted), the third and fourth are more complex to code.

Still my main issue with (almost all) the districts is the sense of scale (as I see it Rome and Ostia would share the same plot), they are not a bad ideas, but the maps get crowded quickly...

That's why I'd like to have some early buildings (maritime, military, production) in the city center, and some more effective buildings in dedicated districts after the industrial revolution and urbanization.
 
Another update on GitHub, nothing new on the features side, but it was a very difficult (for me) piece of code, one of those time when I regret not having a programmer formation, I'm sure it would be much faster if I hadn't to spend a few days understanding what I'm trying to code... :D

So...
Code:
add a custom implementation of A* pathfinder for Rivers Route as the previous one was not reliable when rivers where separated by two tiles or less

This was an absolute prerequisite for Earth maps, especially in the Europe region where there are a lot of rivers close to each other, almost all cities from France, Italy and Germany were detected as connected by rivers route with the previous code that I had badly implemented in whoward's route connections...

Now it use a completely separated algorithm based on the pseudo code for A* on wikipedia. It should work fine, but let me know if you detect strange paths from cities connected by rivers.

I may try to adapt it later for supply lines efficiency using terrain and roads.
 
Still my main issue with (almost all) the districts is the sense of scale (as I see it Rome and Ostia would share the same plot), they are not a bad ideas, but the maps get crowded quickly...

Makes sense, and I agree completely that the clutter from too many structures on the map is a problem, particularly when the models cover the entire tile, don't match the culture, or look goofy. I would prefer if most improvements and districts were more visually sparse (like farms). That works better with the size and scale we have.

I do like the encampment, since it's actually a superior representation of a fort, and placement is a strategic concern. Harbors are nice for the same reason... you can project naval power on isolated sides of a land mass. And they have the quality of not crowding land tiles.

I'll complain later, after seeing what you come up with :D

Another update on GitHub, nothing new on the features side, but it was a very difficult (for me) piece of code, one of those time when I regret not having a programmer formation, I'm sure it would be much faster if I hadn't to spend a few days understanding what I'm trying to code... :D

I think your projects turn out exceptionally well and unique because you approach them from a top-down perspective ("what you want" vs "what you already know"). So take your time, the work is much appreciated.
 
Small update:
Code:
a few important bug fixes to the river pathfinder
 
A potential tech tree in the form :
Tech (requirement)

& = and
| = or

I think we can work on that part of the research system already, it's the top level, a general view not linked to specific units, buildings, mechanisms, it's the applications/projects that will link it to the mod later.

I'm looking for feedback on incoherences, missing techs and help defining the corresponding research fields

Code:
==============================================================================================================================================
= ANCIENT ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Alphabet / Writing
Animal Husbandry        (cows, sheep, horses)
Ceremonial Burial
Warrior Code            (combats XP)
The Wheel
Pottery
Sailing                    (water tiles, sea resources)
Agriculture                (wheat, rices)
Herbalism                (plants, wounded)
Trapping                (deers)


-------
Tiers 2
-------

Code of Laws            (Writing)
Currency                (Writing)
Mysticism                (Ceremonial Burial)
Astrology                (Ceremonial Burial)
Mining                    (Pottery, mineral/metal resources)
Bronze Working            (Pottery)
Irrigation                (Agriculture, corresponding resources)


-------
Tiers 3
-------

Foreign Trade            (Currency & Code of Laws)
Polytheism                (Mysticism)
Military Tradition        (Warrior Code, combats)
Masonry                    (Pottery & Mining)
Map Making                (Writing, find land plots: mountains, natural wonders)
Calendar                (Writing & Astrology)
                            

==============================================================================================================================================
= CLASSICAL ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Games and Recreation    (population)
Philosophy                (Code of Laws & Mysticism, population)
Monotheism                (Polytheism)
Military Training        (Military Tradition, combats)
Recorded History        (Writing, killed units | knowledge of a captured city | gain a level 3 unit)
Iron Working            (Bronze Working & Mining, Iron)
Celestial Navigation    (Calendar)
Horseback Riding        (Military Tradition, Animal Husbandry)


-------
Tiers 2
-------

Mathematics                (Calendar | Currency)
Literacy                (Currency & Philosophy)
Drama and Poetry        (Games and Recreation)
Construction            (Masonry)


-------
Tiers 3
-------

Paper                    (Literacy | Drama and Poetry | Recorded History)
Theology                (Monotheism)
Engineering                (Construction & Mathematics)
Surgery                    (Herbalism, wounded)

==============================================================================================================================================
= MEDIEVAL ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Education                (Paper & Literacy)
Feudalism                (Military Training & Recorded History)
Apprenticeship            (Engineering)
Military Engineering    (Military Training & Engineering)
Heavy Fortifications    (Engineering)
Machinery                (Engineering)


-------
Tiers 2
-------

Physics                    (Education & Mathematics)
Civil Service            (Feudalism)
Guilds                    (Apprenticeship)
Optics                    (Machinery)
Medicine                (Education & Surgery, illness)

-------
Tiers 3
-------

Compass                    (Physics & Celestial Navigation)
Printing Press            (Guilds & Machinery)
Metal casting            (Physics & Machinery)

==============================================================================================================================================
= DISCOVERY ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Nationalism                (Civil Service)
Diplomatic Service        (Civil Service)
Banking                    (Guilds)
Siege tactics            ((Heavy Fortifications | Attacking city with a castle) & Military Engineering)
Gunpowder                (Metal casting)
Astronomy                (Optics & Physics & Celestial Navigation)


-------
Tiers 2
-------

Humanism                (Medicine)
Architecture            (Heavy Fortifications)
Mercantilism            (Banking)
Magnetism                (Compass)
Cartography                (Compass & Optics)
Microbiology            (Medicine & Optics)
Scientific Method        (Physics & Medicine)


-------
Tiers 3
-------

Liberalism                (Humanism)
Constitution            (Humanism & Nationalism)
Chemistry                (Scientific Method)
Mass Production            (Mercantilism & Machinery)
Theory of Gravity        (Scientific Method & Astronomy)


==============================================================================================================================================
= INDUSTRIAL ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Natural History            (Cartography & Scientific Method)
Economics                (Mercantilism & Scientific Method)
Steel                    (Mass Production & Metal casting)
Rifling                    (Mass Production & Gunpowder & Metal casting)
Steam Engine            (Chemistry & Metal casting)


-------
Tiers 2
-------

Fertilizer                (Chemistry)
Electricity                (Magnetism)
Assembly Lines            (Mass Production & Economics)
Conscription            (Rifling, Constitution)
Civil Engineering        (Steam Engine)
Military Science        (Rifling)
Vaccine                    (Microbiology & Scientific Method)


-------
Tiers 3
-------

Explosives                (Fertilizer & Steel)
Capitalism                (Liberalism & Economics)
Communism                (Civil Engineering & Assembly Lines)
Industrialization        (Assembly Lines & (Steam Engine | Electricity))
Refining                (Chemistry & (Steam Engine | Electricity))
Urbanization            (Civil Engineering)


==============================================================================================================================================
= MACHINE ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Mobilization            (Conscription)
Replacable Parts        (Industrialization)
Combustion                (Refining)
Scorched Earth            (Explosives & Military Science)


-------
Tiers 2
-------

Refrigeration            (Industrialization)
Fascism                    (Mobilization & Industrialization)
Electronics                (Replacable Parts & Electricity)
Flight                    (Combustion, Industrialization)
Ballistics                (Explosives & Military Science)


-------
Tiers 3
-------

Atomic Theory            (Electronics & Theory of Gravity)
Radio                    (Electronics)
Biotechnology            (Refrigeration)


==============================================================================================================================================
= ARMS RACE ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Mass Media                (Radio)
Radar                    (Radio)
Advanced Flight            (Flight, air combats)
Advanced Ballistics        (Ballistics, ranged combats)
Armored Warfare            (armored combats)
Sonar                    (Radio)
Plastics                (Combustion & Replacable Parts)


-------
Tiers 2
-------
 
Combined Arms            (Radio & Armored Warfare & Advanced Flight)
Antibiotics                (Biotechnology)


-------
Tiers 3
-------

Amphibious Warfare        (Combined Arms)
Nuclear Fission            (Atomic Theory, uranium)
Jet Engine                (Advanced Flight & Electronics, air combats)


==============================================================================================================================================
= ATOMIC ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Ecology                    (Natural History)       
Rocketry                (Jet Engine & Refrigeration)
Fundamentalism            (Mass Media)


-------
Tiers 2
-------

Nuclear Power            (Nuclear Fission)
Computers                (Electronics)
Synthetic Materials        (Plastics)
Guerilla Warfare        (Scorched Earth)
Genetics                (Biotechnology)


-------
Tiers 3
-------

Recycling                (Ecology)
Miniaturisation            (Computers & Radio)


==============================================================================================================================================
= INFORMATION ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Telecommunication        (Miniaturisation)
Satellites                (Miniaturisation & Rocketry)
Lasers                    (Miniaturisation)
Composites                (Synthetic Materials)
Mobile Tactics            (Amphibious Warfare & Guerilla Warfare)


-------
Tiers 2
-------

Social Media            (Telecommunication)
Globalization            (Satellites & Telecommunication)
Guidance Systems        (Lasers & Telecommunication)
Eugenism                (Genetics)


-------
Tiers 3
-------

Fiber Optics            (Computers & Lasers)   
Superconductors            (Composites & Refrigeration)
Stealth                    (Composites & Guidance Systems)


==============================================================================================================================================
= FUTURE ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Fusion Power            (Lasers & Superconductors)
Nanotechnology            (Lasers)
Genetics Engineering    (Eugenism)


-------
Tiers 2
-------

Artificial Intelligence    (Nanotechnology)


-------
Tiers 3
-------

Robotics                (Artificial Intelligence & Fusion Power)
 
In my test game the game just freezes, no unresponsive prompt or CTD, but the sounds still continue to play.

It's just stuck on this screen

Spoiler :




Mod list is as follows:

  • Combat and Stacking Overhaul
  • Gedemon's Civilization
  • Historical Spawn Dates
  • RED Modpack
  • YnAMP
Playing on Giant Earth if that matters.
 
Thanks for the report.

With the scale of changes planned for this mod, I'll use a similar philosophy as with my WWII mod: everything that is not marked as compatible will cause a warning message and I may prevent the game to start then, to prevent too many bug reports because of incompatibilities that can't be fixed.

CSO is integrated in this mod (except the strategic resources usage which will be replaced by the mod's supply/demand mechanism) that may cause issues if both are enabled.

R.E.D. and YnAMP main mod should work fine (they may even become dependencies at some point), but maybe not all addons of YnAMP are compatible.

HSD is still alpha, I'm unsure of it's stability. But like CSO, most of its mechanisms will be integrated to this mod, with specific balancing.

At this moment I will not have time to provide direct support in case of bugs/crashes when using mods other than R.E.D and YnAMP, but I still welcome the report and feedback on problems when using other mods, that's a first step to create a "white list" of compatible mods.
 
A potential tech tree in the form :
Tech (requirement)

& = and
| = or

I think we can work on that part of the research system already, it's the top level, a general view not linked to specific units, buildings, mechanisms, it's the applications/projects that will link it to the mod later.

I'm looking for feedback on incoherences, missing techs and help defining the corresponding research fields

Code:
==============================================================================================================================================
= ANCIENT ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Alphabet / Writing
Animal Husbandry        (cows, sheep, horses)
Ceremonial Burial
Warrior Code            (combats XP)
The Wheel
Pottery
Sailing                    (water tiles, sea resources)
Agriculture                (wheat, rices)
Herbalism                (plants, wounded)
Trapping                (deers)


-------
Tiers 2
-------

Code of Laws            (Writing)
Currency                (Writing)
Mysticism                (Ceremonial Burial)
Astrology                (Ceremonial Burial)
Mining                    (Pottery, mineral/metal resources)
Bronze Working            (Pottery)
Irrigation                (Agriculture, corresponding resources)


-------
Tiers 3
-------

Foreign Trade            (Currency & Code of Laws)
Polytheism                (Mysticism)
Military Tradition        (Warrior Code, combats)
Masonry                    (Pottery & Mining)
Map Making                (Writing, find land plots: mountains, natural wonders)
Calendar                (Writing & Astrology)
                         

==============================================================================================================================================
= CLASSICAL ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Games and Recreation    (population)
Philosophy                (Code of Laws & Mysticism, population)
Monotheism                (Polytheism)
Military Training        (Military Tradition, combats)
Recorded History        (Writing, killed units | knowledge of a captured city | gain a level 3 unit)
Iron Working            (Bronze Working & Mining, Iron)
Celestial Navigation    (Calendar)
Horseback Riding        (Military Tradition, Animal Husbandry)


-------
Tiers 2
-------

Mathematics                (Calendar | Currency)
Literacy                (Currency & Philosophy)
Drama and Poetry        (Games and Recreation)
Construction            (Masonry)


-------
Tiers 3
-------

Paper                    (Literacy | Drama and Poetry | Recorded History)
Theology                (Monotheism)
Engineering                (Construction & Mathematics)
Surgery                    (Herbalism, wounded)

==============================================================================================================================================
= MEDIEVAL ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Education                (Paper & Literacy)
Feudalism                (Military Training & Recorded History)
Apprenticeship            (Engineering)
Military Engineering    (Military Training & Engineering)
Heavy Fortifications    (Engineering)
Machinery                (Engineering)


-------
Tiers 2
-------

Physics                    (Education & Mathematics)
Civil Service            (Feudalism)
Guilds                    (Apprenticeship)
Optics                    (Machinery)
Medicine                (Education & Surgery, illness)

-------
Tiers 3
-------

Compass                    (Physics & Celestial Navigation)
Printing Press            (Guilds & Machinery)
Metal casting            (Physics & Machinery)

==============================================================================================================================================
= DISCOVERY ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Nationalism                (Civil Service)
Diplomatic Service        (Civil Service)
Banking                    (Guilds)
Siege tactics            ((Heavy Fortifications | Attacking city with a castle) & Military Engineering)
Gunpowder                (Metal casting)
Astronomy                (Optics & Physics & Celestial Navigation)


-------
Tiers 2
-------

Humanism                (Medicine)
Architecture            (Heavy Fortifications)
Mercantilism            (Banking)
Magnetism                (Compass)
Cartography                (Compass & Optics)
Microbiology            (Medicine & Optics)
Scientific Method        (Physics & Medicine)


-------
Tiers 3
-------

Liberalism                (Humanism)
Constitution            (Humanism & Nationalism)
Chemistry                (Scientific Method)
Mass Production            (Mercantilism & Machinery)
Theory of Gravity        (Scientific Method & Astronomy)


==============================================================================================================================================
= INDUSTRIAL ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Natural History            (Cartography & Scientific Method)
Economics                (Mercantilism & Scientific Method)
Steel                    (Mass Production & Metal casting)
Rifling                    (Mass Production & Gunpowder & Metal casting)
Steam Engine            (Chemistry & Metal casting)


-------
Tiers 2
-------

Fertilizer                (Chemistry)
Electricity                (Magnetism)
Assembly Lines            (Mass Production & Economics)
Conscription            (Rifling, Constitution)
Civil Engineering        (Steam Engine)
Military Science        (Rifling)
Vaccine                    (Microbiology & Scientific Method)


-------
Tiers 3
-------

Explosives                (Fertilizer & Steel)
Capitalism                (Liberalism & Economics)
Communism                (Civil Engineering & Assembly Lines)
Industrialization        (Assembly Lines & (Steam Engine | Electricity))
Refining                (Chemistry & (Steam Engine | Electricity))
Urbanization            (Civil Engineering)


==============================================================================================================================================
= MACHINE ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Mobilization            (Conscription)
Replacable Parts        (Industrialization)
Combustion                (Refining)
Scorched Earth            (Explosives & Military Science)


-------
Tiers 2
-------

Refrigeration            (Industrialization)
Fascism                    (Mobilization & Industrialization)
Electronics                (Replacable Parts & Electricity)
Flight                    (Combustion, Industrialization)
Ballistics                (Explosives & Military Science)


-------
Tiers 3
-------

Atomic Theory            (Electronics & Theory of Gravity)
Radio                    (Electronics)
Biotechnology            (Refrigeration)


==============================================================================================================================================
= ARMS RACE ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Mass Media                (Radio)
Radar                    (Radio)
Advanced Flight            (Flight, air combats)
Advanced Ballistics        (Ballistics, ranged combats)
Armored Warfare            (armored combats)
Sonar                    (Radio)
Plastics                (Combustion & Replacable Parts)


-------
Tiers 2
-------
 
Combined Arms            (Radio & Armored Warfare & Advanced Flight)
Antibiotics                (Biotechnology)


-------
Tiers 3
-------

Amphibious Warfare        (Combined Arms)
Nuclear Fission            (Atomic Theory, uranium)
Jet Engine                (Advanced Flight & Electronics, air combats)


==============================================================================================================================================
= ATOMIC ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Ecology                    (Natural History)    
Rocketry                (Jet Engine & Refrigeration)
Fundamentalism            (Mass Media)


-------
Tiers 2
-------

Nuclear Power            (Nuclear Fission)
Computers                (Electronics)
Synthetic Materials        (Plastics)
Guerilla Warfare        (Scorched Earth)
Genetics                (Biotechnology)


-------
Tiers 3
-------

Recycling                (Ecology)
Miniaturisation            (Computers & Radio)


==============================================================================================================================================
= INFORMATION ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Telecommunication        (Miniaturisation)
Satellites                (Miniaturisation & Rocketry)
Lasers                    (Miniaturisation)
Composites                (Synthetic Materials)
Mobile Tactics            (Amphibious Warfare & Guerilla Warfare)


-------
Tiers 2
-------

Social Media            (Telecommunication)
Globalization            (Satellites & Telecommunication)
Guidance Systems        (Lasers & Telecommunication)
Eugenism                (Genetics)


-------
Tiers 3
-------

Fiber Optics            (Computers & Lasers)
Superconductors            (Composites & Refrigeration)
Stealth                    (Composites & Guidance Systems)


==============================================================================================================================================
= FUTURE ERA
==============================================================================================================================================
-------
Tiers 1
-------

Fusion Power            (Lasers & Superconductors)
Nanotechnology            (Lasers)
Genetics Engineering    (Eugenism)


-------
Tiers 2
-------

Artificial Intelligence    (Nanotechnology)


-------
Tiers 3
-------

Robotics                (Artificial Intelligence & Fusion Power)

I have a bit of experience with ancient technology and history, so I'll throw in my take on this. First off, a few of these looks more like civics than techs. Are we recombining them? If so, there are a number of civics that aren't here, for example the governmental civics.

Another thing, even though some of these early techs have been core to the civ series, that doesn't necessarily mean they belong there. Animal husbandry and pottery were discovered by various people at different times, but by 10000 BC or so, there were cultures around the world that had developed them. If we're still sticking with the default "4000 BC" start, these don't exactly make sense.

If anyone has any problems with what I say, feel free to speak up. I'm not an expert, I've just done a bit of research and taken a few university courses. I'm no historian though.
Spoiler Stuff :

-While writing was developed somewhere between 3000 and 2500 BC in Sumeria (and later, in Egypt, China and central America) it was far from the norm. Most of the world existed without a form of writing well after 0 AD, adopting or adapting the writing systems of their neighbours. It shouldn't be one of the first techs available.

-As I mentioned, Animal Husbrandry is between 10 and 12 thousand years old, so that's a separate problem.

-Ceremonial Burial feels more like a civic than a tech, and is much, much older than this, probably 40 000 years old or more based on archaeological evidence.

-Warrior Code again feels like a civic rather than a tech.

-The wheel is pretty good here, although it might be good to require Animal Husbandry or pottery for it. (Whether the wheel was developed for potter's wheels or carts is debated)

-Sailing is also ancient, there were settlements on the Island of Cyprus ~7000 BC which was only reachable by sea.

-Agriculture clearly predates nearly all of the other techs as well, being almost necessary for settlement to even occur

-Herbalism no qualms.

-Trapping, not exactly how deer are harvested I believe. For smaller game it might make sense.

Tier 2:

-Code of Laws feels like a civic again. The earliest attested record of laws that I'm aware of is the Code of Hammurabi c. 1780 BC.

-Currency is hard to place. The first form of credit and debt established was probably around 2000 BC but coins were not minted until around 700 BC, which is much closer to the classical period.

-Mysticism also feels more civic-y and again likely predates everything else in the tree by thousands of years

-Astrology, slightly more techy version of above, but again if you count stone henge (3100 BC) and many other early artifacts, it probably existed well before the scope of the game.

-I wouldn't say that mining was initially about metal working. The earliest mines were often quarries for extracting stone or for harvesting minerals that were used in pigments. Breaking stone into smaller pieces doesn't really require pottery.

-Bronze Working or copper working are pretty good. The earliest copper tools probably date to the mid 2000s BC with bronze arriving a few centuries later.

-Irrigation is older than bronze working for sure. The ancient Sumerians dug trenches to help irrigate their crops from the Euphrates and Tigris rivers. I feel that irrigation and mining are likely related, I've heard some things such as early mining tools began as repurposed tools designed for moving soil and if ancient civilizations are digging water channels, they would likely encounter hard rock they'd need to excavate or move.

Tier 3:

-Foreign Trade needs to come way earlier. The ancient sumerians and the indus valley civilization were trading over hundreds of miles by the 2000s BC and the tin trade is what made bronze possible in the following thousand years. The ancient world was a lot more connected than people give it credit for.

-Polytheism existed much much earlier than this, you only need to reed the myth of Atrahasis from ancient Sumeria to see that, or look at Ancient Egyptian culture.

-Military Tradition, again civic-like

-Masonry is probably better suited as a tier 2 tech if mining is moved to tier 1 (although this is debatable)

-Map Making is classical at the very earliest.

-Calendar could probably come a lot earlier, and shouldn't require writing. Writing is a much more developed system than is necessary for calendars, and keeping track of the seasons was one of the earliest things that people did when their lives depended on growing crops.

Classical:

Tier 1:

-Games and Recreation - no issues
-Philosophy - no issues
-Monotheism - not sure if this is really necessary. Civ 4 had this idea that monotheism is better than polytheism or animism but really they're all the same.
-MIlitary Training - no issues
-Recorded hitsory - no issues
-Iron working - Bronze working should really require mining anyway because copper can't be harvested without a mine in significant enough quantities to allow for anything on an industrial scale.
-Celestial navigation - and sailing, right?
-Horseback Riding - probably fine

Tier 2

-Mathematics I would say Philosophy and writing
-Literacy - this is more of a concept than a tech or civic. Do you mean literacy in the population beyond career scribes?
-Drama and Poetry - probably fine
-Construction - probably fine

Tier 3

-Paper are we talking about papyrus or modern paper? All of Europe was still using very thin and incredibly expensive strips of veal-leather well into the medieval period for paper because there was no better alternative.
-Theology doesn't require monotheism. You can study a religion or faith without it being Christianity (/other Abrahamic religion)
-Engineering probably fine
-Surgery is pretty interesting. It was incredibly unsuccessful until much later and I don't know many successful surgeries until centuries later

Medieval

Tier 1:

-Education not sure on this one. For some reason, I feel like standardized education began in the classical period and was lost until centuries later
-Feudalism is tricky as well. It really emerged as a consequence of the fall of the Roman empire, but it's probably fine here.
-Apprenticeship is probably ok
-MIlitary Engineering was definitely known in the classical world
-Heavy Fortifications not sure what you mean by this
-Machinery probably comes later. Windmills certainly weren't developed until around the 12th or 13th centuries. China may have had early machinery around 600 or 700 AD though.

Tier 2:

-Physics is much closer to a Renaissance tech than a medieval one- I should note that you don't really have a Renaissance era, you go from medieval to discovery. The medieval period began around 500 AD in Europe and lasted til something like 1400-1500, after which social and political changes ended the systems that were in place the previous thousand years. Major discoveries in physics date after the medieval period.
-Civil Service - no idea
-Guilds - probably fine
-Optics - maybe?
-Medicine had not really advanced at all by the middle medieval period from the ancient or classical period. A lot of those advances would come later. Note: this is only true if we use the general period referred to as "medieval" which would place any tier 2 medieval tech around 1000 AD. I get the feeling you expected the medieval era to come later.

Tier 3:
-Compass maybe. I'm not sure.
-Printing press fits the time for the very end of the medieval period
-Metal Casting is hard to place. Bronze and copper had been cast in molds for thousands of years at this point and melting iron or steel was largely impossible for most of the world. Again though, China had developed machine-powered blast furnaces much earlier and it was this that eventually spread to Europe and allowed iron or steel to be cast. Depending on how the system ends up going, it might be better to have Metal Casting or the printing press available earlier, but only under very specific conditions so that only one or two civs are able to get it and the rest learn it from them.

Discovery era

Tier 1

-Gun powder may be better as a medieval tech, as guns or canons were being developed by the 1400s in Europe. Guns were largely what ended the medieval society in Europe.
The other techs seem fine

Tier 2
-Mercantilism was around in the late medieval period throughout the German states and Italy
-How is magnetism a tech?
-Microbiology????? Bacteria were OBSERVED in the late 17th century (which should be after tier 2), but there was no understanding of microorganisms until much later.
-Scientific Method I think comes a bit later

Tier 3
-Theory of Gravity if this comes here, Microbiology and Scientific method should come around this time or later.

Industrial Era

Tier 1
These seem ok

Tier 2
-Electricity should probably require scientific theory or possibly the steam engine.
-Vaccines probably come later

Tier 3

These seem ok I guess

Machine Era (interesting title btw)

Tier 1
Seem reasonable

Tier 2
Electronics are iffy. If you mean radios or telegraphs, they should be much earlier, if you mean anything like a Turing machine, they come later.
Ballistics are much, much earlier than this.

Tier 3
The very earliest computers should be in here somewhere too

Arms Race era (this name makes sense in the modern world, but without world wars I'm not sure it does)

Tier 1
These seem fine

Tier 2
Antibiotics come earlier I believe?

Tier 3
Radar and Nuclear Fission are not nearly so far apart as this

Atomic Era

Tier 1
Fundamentalism?

Tier 2
Ok

Tier 3
ok

Information Era

Tier 1
Sound ok

Tier 2
Social Media comes way later

Tier 3

Seems ok

Future Era
Tier 1
This is no longer history lol
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Thank you !

I'll come back on your nicely detailed answer, but before just some additional info on the global design that affects the tech tree in more or less important ways:

  • We're not limited by date, the game could start much earlier, with a potential nomadic start (with moves restricted to a part of the map around the starting position) before settling the first city.
  • Yes, one combined tree for tech and civics, with "culture" or "social" research field points being more important than "science" research field points for civics "techs" progression. Governments/Policies being applications of civics (unlocked by civics or requiring specific additional "projects" to be unlocked), so missing government/policies related civics would have to be added to the tree. Civics of the current civ6 tree could be converted to "application" of another tech/civics of this mod's tree.
  • I'd like the "Eras" to feel less centered on European history, and less tied to "dates", removing it only showing turns count and the actual Era of the most advanced (known - directly or indirectly - to the player) civilization is a possibility
  • Historical Spawn Dates will be integrated to the mod, depending of the above, it could be more of a Historical Spawn Eras things, but the point is that not all civilizations will spawn at the start of the game, and those starting later will start with most of the techs already discovered by other Civilizations in the current game
  • Revolutions will also be part of the mod, Civil Wars will be possible, "global" tech loss could then happen (for example a civilization has found "Education" before the others, fall during a revolution / civil war, the civilizations resulting of the split in a case of civil wars may not start with all techs from the parent civilization, if "Education" is part of the lost techs it will not be "tech diffused" or could be given to newly spawned civilization anymore and will have to be "discovered" again.
 
@dunkleosteus

I'd like to add some of my insights to your feedback, highlighted in brown.

Spoiler :

-While writing was developed somewhere between 3000 and 2500 BC in Sumeria (and later, in Egypt, China and central America) it was far from the norm. Most of the world existed without a form of writing well after 0 AD, adopting or adapting the writing systems of their neighbours. It shouldn't be one of the first techs available.

-As I mentioned, Animal Husbrandry is between 10 and 12 thousand years old, so that's a separate problem.

-Ceremonial Burial feels more like a civic than a tech, and is much, much older than this, probably 40 000 years old or more based on archaeological evidence. As a basis for more complex religious structures, ceremonial burial works in most cultures, but not all. In Tibet, for example, sky burials occur, where the body is left on a mountaintop to decompose. It would be better if all religious techs are put into their own Religious field, which would be non-linear in the sense that there are dead ends and some techs would require no techs before it, instead being unlocked by other conditions.

-Warrior Code again feels like a civic rather than a tech. Ethical codes and such seem like an offspring of law codes, so it would make sense to have specialised applications for Code of Laws that can be developed. Warrior Code could be a military-focused development that requires Code of Laws and a sizeable military.

-The wheel is pretty good here, although it might be good to require Animal Husbandry or pottery for it. (Whether the wheel was developed for potter's wheels or carts is debated) Having the wheel be an application of Pottery first would be better, and then you can make Carts that would be an application that requires the Wheel.

-Sailing is also ancient, there were settlements on the Island of Cyprus ~7000 BC which was only reachable by sea.

-Agriculture clearly predates nearly all of the other techs as well, being almost necessary for settlement to even occur It only exists as an industry that is built on a need basis, so the resources requirement is fine. The industrial significance of many of the techs though should warrant them their own Industrial field.

-Herbalism no qualms.

-Trapping, not exactly how deer are harvested I believe. For smaller game it might make sense.

Tier 2:

-Code of Laws feels like a civic again. The earliest attested record of laws that I'm aware of is the Code of Hammurabi c. 1780 BC. There is actually an even earlier law code, the Code of Ur-Nammu, which dates back to c. 2100 BC - 2050 BC. The concept of laws require something to protect however, so there should be applications put to work here, other than that, the Writing prerequisite is fine.

-Currency is hard to place. The first form of credit and debt established was probably around 2000 BC but coins were not minted until around 700 BC, which is much closer to the classical period. The first stage of currency grew out of a need of a system to represent the value of commodities, so they used pieces of metal, but this led to an economic collapse as anyone could just steal money, as there was no system in place to protect it. Thus, a currency was only as strong as the military that defended it. This led to the need for coinage, so Gedemon could implement this by making Coinage an application of Currency.

-Mysticism also feels more civic-y and again likely predates everything else in the tree by thousands of years Placing Mysticism in the 1st Tier of the Religious field will work.

-Astrology, slightly more techy version of above, but again if you count stone henge (3100 BC) and many other early artifacts, it probably existed well before the scope of the game. Stonehenge has no clear purpose as of yet, so it's risky to associate it with Astrology. In general, astrology came about as a result of the need for a system to practice a belief system that had its roots in celestial objects, so it would make sense for it to be an application that requires Calendar and Mysticism. After all, you don't need a spiritual reason to look at the stars.

-I wouldn't say that mining was initially about metal working. The earliest mines were often quarries for extracting stone or for harvesting minerals that were used in pigments. Breaking stone into smaller pieces doesn't really require pottery. Having enough mineable resources in an empire's land would be enough of a requirement, and I would put Mining into an Industrial field of its own.

-Bronze Working or copper working are pretty good. The earliest copper tools probably date to the mid 2000s BC with bronze arriving a few centuries later. Bronze would work as an application of Copper Working that would unlock upon reaching certain conditions, like building enough mines for example. This would be a nice balance between completely random and completely player-controlled.

-Irrigation is older than bronze working for sure. The ancient Sumerians dug trenches to help irrigate their crops from the Euphrates and Tigris rivers. I feel that irrigation and mining are likely related, I've heard some things such as early mining tools began as repurposed tools designed for moving soil and if ancient civilizations are digging water channels, they would likely encounter hard rock they'd need to excavate or move. Irrigation is a part of the Agriculture industry however, so it can be an application that requires Agriculture and a source of fresh water.

Tier 3:

-Foreign Trade needs to come way earlier. The ancient sumerians and the indus valley civilization were trading over hundreds of miles by the 2000s BC and the tin trade is what made bronze possible in the following thousand years. The ancient world was a lot more connected than people give it credit for. Trade is a part of human history and would fare better as something that is integrated into an Economic field. Caravans can be turned into an application that requires the Wheel Application and a trade route that's longer than 30 tiles, for example.

-Polytheism existed much much earlier than this, you only need to reed the myth of Atrahasis from ancient Sumeria to see that, or look at Ancient Egyptian culture.

-Military Tradition, again civic-like

-Masonry is probably better suited as a tier 2 tech if mining is moved to tier 1 (although this is debatable)

-Map Making is classical at the very earliest.

-Calendar could probably come a lot earlier, and shouldn't require writing. Writing is a much more developed system than is necessary for calendars, and keeping track of the seasons was one of the earliest things that people did when their lives depended on growing crops. Partly agreed. Early representations of calendars stemmed from agriculture and such, but even writing existed in a rudimentary form used for agriculture. In the large scale of Civilization, it is important to remember that this is on an empire-wide basis, and so calendars must exist as a well-defined system for use. I agree with your suggestion to push Calendar back, but Writing should remain a prerequisite for Calendar.

Classical:

Tier 1:

-Games and Recreation - no issues
-Philosophy - no issues
-Monotheism - not sure if this is really necessary. Civ 4 had this idea that monotheism is better than polytheism or animism but really they're all the same.
-MIlitary Training - no issues
-Recorded hitsory - no issues
-Iron working - Bronze working should really require mining anyway because copper can't be harvested without a mine in significant enough quantities to allow for anything on an industrial scale.
-Celestial navigation - and sailing, right?
-Horseback Riding - probably fine

Tier 2

-Mathematics I would say Philosophy and writing
-Literacy - this is more of a concept than a tech or civic. Do you mean literacy in the population beyond career scribes?
-Drama and Poetry - probably fine
-Construction - probably fine

Tier 3

-Paper are we talking about papyrus or modern paper? All of Europe was still using very thin and incredibly expensive strips of veal-leather well into the medieval period for paper because there was no better alternative.
-Theology doesn't require monotheism. You can study a religion or faith without it being Christianity (/other Abrahamic religion)
-Engineering probably fine
-Surgery is pretty interesting. It was incredibly unsuccessful until much later and I don't know many successful surgeries until centuries later

Medieval

Tier 1:

-Education not sure on this one. For some reason, I feel like standardized education began in the classical period and was lost until centuries later
-Feudalism is tricky as well. It really emerged as a consequence of the fall of the Roman empire, but it's probably fine here.
-Apprenticeship is probably ok
-MIlitary Engineering was definitely known in the classical world
-Heavy Fortifications not sure what you mean by this
-Machinery probably comes later. Windmills certainly weren't developed until around the 12th or 13th centuries. China may have had early machinery around 600 or 700 AD though.

Tier 2:

-Physics is much closer to a Renaissance tech than a medieval one- I should note that you don't really have a Renaissance era, you go from medieval to discovery. The medieval period began around 500 AD in Europe and lasted til something like 1400-1500, after which social and political changes ended the systems that were in place the previous thousand years. Major discoveries in physics date after the medieval period.
-Civil Service - no idea
-Guilds - probably fine
-Optics - maybe?
-Medicine had not really advanced at all by the middle medieval period from the ancient or classical period. A lot of those advances would come later. Note: this is only true if we use the general period referred to as "medieval" which would place any tier 2 medieval tech around 1000 AD. I get the feeling you expected the medieval era to come later.

Tier 3:
-Compass maybe. I'm not sure.
-Printing press fits the time for the very end of the medieval period
-Metal Casting is hard to place. Bronze and copper had been cast in molds for thousands of years at this point and melting iron or steel was largely impossible for most of the world. Again though, China had developed machine-powered blast furnaces much earlier and it was this that eventually spread to Europe and allowed iron or steel to be cast. Depending on how the system ends up going, it might be better to have Metal Casting or the printing press available earlier, but only under very specific conditions so that only one or two civs are able to get it and the rest learn it from them.

Discovery era

Tier 1

-Gun powder may be better as a medieval tech, as guns or canons were being developed by the 1400s in Europe. Guns were largely what ended the medieval society in Europe.
The other techs seem fine

Tier 2
-Mercantilism was around in the late medieval period throughout the German states and Italy
-How is magnetism a tech?
-Microbiology????? Bacteria were OBSERVED in the late 17th century (which should be after tier 2), but there was no understanding of microorganisms until much later.
-Scientific Method I think comes a bit later

Tier 3
-Theory of Gravity if this comes here, Microbiology and Scientific method should come around this time or later.

Industrial Era

Tier 1
These seem ok

Tier 2
-Electricity should probably require scientific theory or possibly the steam engine.
-Vaccines probably come later

Tier 3

These seem ok I guess

Machine Era (interesting title btw)

Tier 1
Seem reasonable

Tier 2
Electronics are iffy. If you mean radios or telegraphs, they should be much earlier, if you mean anything like a Turing machine, they come later.
Ballistics are much, much earlier than this.

Tier 3
The very earliest computers should be in here somewhere too

Arms Race era (this name makes sense in the modern world, but without world wars I'm not sure it does)

Tier 1
These seem fine

Tier 2
Antibiotics come earlier I believe?

Tier 3
Radar and Nuclear Fission are not nearly so far apart as this

Atomic Era

Tier 1
Fundamentalism?

Tier 2
Ok

Tier 3
ok

Information Era

Tier 1
Sound ok

Tier 2
Social Media comes way later

Tier 3

Seems ok

Future Era
Tier 1
This is no longer history lol
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Last edited:
Thank you !

I'll come back on your nicely detailed answer, but before just some additional info on the global design that affects the tech tree in more or less important ways:

  • We're not limited by date, the game could start much earlier, with a potential nomadic start (with moves restricted to a part of the map around the starting position) before settling the first city.
  • Yes, one combined tree for tech and civics, with "culture" or "social" research field points being more important than "science" research field points for civics "techs" progression. Governments/Policies being applications of civics (unlocked by civics or requiring specific additional "projects" to be unlocked), so missing government/policies related civics would have to be added to the tree. Civics of the current civ6 tree could be converted to "application" of another tech/civics of this mod's tree.
  • I'd like the "Eras" to feel less centered on European history, and less tied to "dates", removing it only showing turns count and the actual Era of the most advanced (known - directly or indirectly - to the player) civilization is a possibility
  • Historical Spawn Dates will be integrated to the mod, depending of the above, it could be more of a Historical Spawn Eras things, but the point is that not all civilizations will spawn at the start of the game, and those starting later will start with most of the techs already discovered by other Civilizations in the current game
  • Revolutions will also be part of the mod, Civil Wars will be possible, "global" tech loss could then happen (for example a civilization has found "Education" before the others, fall during a revolution / civil war, the civilizations resulting of the split in a case of civil wars may not start with all techs from the parent civilization, if "Education" is part of the lost techs it will not be "tech diffused" or could be given to newly spawned civilization anymore and will have to be "discovered" again.
I'm especially interested in civil wars and such. If we're talking about "lost" technologies, perhaps it would be good if some of these things along the way had requirements to maintain. For example, a number of technologies and such that were discovered in the ancient era were lost after the bronze age collapse and rediscovered in the classical era. Again, these were lost when the western Roman empire fell. I know much less about global history than European so I'm afraid I can't give much insight into that aspect, but it would be very interesting if after certain "collapses" if some of your techs became locked again due to a loss of a way to maintain them.

It would be very interesting if techs had some sort of maintenance like that. Maybe it could be a requirement of how much military you have or how much population, but it could also be simply a maintenance on the number of points you generate. This means if your empire does not continue to grow, you cannot gain new techs eventually because each new tech adds to the maintenance you have. The historical idea here is that all of these ideas must be maintained and passed down. If for example your society invents banking but then collapses and all economic establishments fall out of use, it's likely that over time as you stopped using banks, your people's knowledge of banking would decay. So to maintain all of this knowledge, there's a slight cost per turn. If your civilization fails to pay the upkeep on their technologies, some of the newer ones may begin to decay (not immediately, but if you didn't fix it for a number of turns, eventually you might forget how to use them).

It would make sense if you didn't have to pay (or maybe pay as much) of this maintenance on techs that were required for other techs, for example if mining is required for bronze working, then maintaining your bronze working is obviously sufficient to maintain your mining (although bronze working would be a little more expensive).
 
So I've been playing a longer game now. I've had freeze crashes on both, although I got farther in the second game than the first. Not having ocean tiles feels odd, it's way less obvious that I'm able to collect sea resources when they're not in my territory. The housing system for each type of population is interesting. The housing system Firaxis uses is really just a stand in for a more complex feature that involves access to clean water and sanitation, where as population increases so too do death rates due to disease and such, which slows population growth. Access to clean (or enough, in the case of deserts) water, food, sanitation, etc allow for higher population. Here though, we have to micromanage the amount of actual housing in a city. Obviously that IS something a city needs to take care of, but it feels a little too much like something a minor official would do rather than something for the leader of the nation to worry about. If you count the production time as well, I found I was building housing so often that I didn't have time for military or buildings. Maybe I was growing too fast though.

Either way, I'd be interested to see a system where a lot of these buildings required gold more than time. I'm typing this while staring at my frozen game and I can see that in the classical era (560 AD, turn 139) I have 3259 gold banked and it would make a lot of sense if I had to pay my citizens for their work. I wouldn't mind having to micromanage my cities as much if it wasn't so time consuming, so perhaps the wealthy housing costs more to construct? It's also hard to understand the purpose of wealth classes as it is, why do I care if my wealthy citizens are living in the middle class housing? Are wealthy citizens good?

The game feels good to play, don't get me wrong but there are a few systems left over from the base game that feel insufficient in this mod. For example, the population level being tied to how many tiles you can work. I understand that without it, it's difficult to represent populations properly but I don't think it's necessary as much. In previous civ games, there were many mechanics tied to population number, such as religious followers, housing (which we seem to have dropped), amenities, any buildings that generate yields for every 1/X population (such as in Civ 5 where libraries were 1 science for every 2 population I believe?). Now, it feels like the only remaining feature that isn't tied to the actual population number is the tiles we can work.

I just think it would be cleaner to break away from that whole system and have your own. When I have 3500 people at the beginning of the game, I can work 1 tile. When I have 150 000 at population 6, I can work 6 tiles. There's something funky going on with the scaling here, clearly. I think it makes sense to be able to select which tiles you want to work, but I don't think it should be tied to city population directly. It would be cool to see a system such as the following:

You can select as many tiles as you like to be worked. The population of your city available for working tiles is split evenly between all the tiles if you do this. Based on tech level and other factors, the yields of these tiles are scaled against the number of citizens working each one. The way you scale it is really up to you, but if you wanted to keep it SIMILAR to the current system, maybe the number of tiles you could work at FULL capacity is still the old city level (so at size 6 I can work 6 tiles at full capacity or 12 tiles at half capacity). Still, we need a way to control this system. Similarly to the buttons that Civ 6 has that let you "focus" the output of your cities on food, production, etc, you can "focus" your cities on all of the different resources. Rather than a radio button though, we can have sliders. If you increase one slider, it would obviously decrease the other sliders proportionally. For a small example, say there were only 3 resources I wanted to control. All three start at 33%. If I lift one slider to 50%, the other two would fall to 25% (because that is proportional to their relationship). We'll call these sliders A, B, and C where A is 50% and B and C are 25% each. If I drop slider C down to 10%, we should see the other two sliders increase.

In terms of coding, the change in the other sliders due to altering the level of any given slider is proportional to their percentage. So if I drop C to 10%, we've freed 15% (because 25% - 10% = 15% and C was previously at 25%). That 15% gets split among the remaining sliders (A and B). A is 50% of the total remaining and B is 25%. However, the total was 75% (which is 100% - C), so we should see that A gets (50% / 75%) * 15 % and B gets (25% / 75%) * 15%. Therefore, A goes up by 10% and B goes up by 5%. The result is A = 60%, B = 30% and C = 10%.

Here is another sample with more sliders: A = 32%, B = 5%, C = 20%, D = 15%, E = 28%. If we increase B up to 20%, we will see the following changes: A -= (32% / 95%) * 15%, C -= (20% / 95%) * 15%, D -= (15% / 95%) * 15%, E -= (28% / 95%) * 15%

The final results would be A = 27%, B = 20%, C = 16.9%, D = 12.6%, E = 23.6%. I've rounded these numbers a bit (they add to 100.1%) but I'm sure you understand the gist of what I'm saying.

These sliders obviously don't directly translate to how the game decides how to work the tiles. The sliders basically let you tell the city how it should focus its population. Many tiles have multiple types of yields however, for example a tile may yield food, production, plants, stone, etc. The percentages are used as weights to determine how to properly execute this. The yields of each tile are multiplied by their percentages and added up. It makes sense that after a tile is being worked by the maximum number of citizens (this maximum may increase over time with era/tech/building or whatever), it's less efficient to add more citizens to the tile. It will still increase the yield of the tile, but the numeric increase rate decreases. The city will "overwork" a tile if doing so will be more valuable than putting those citizens in another tile (as I said before, the "value" of a tile is calculated by multiplying the yields by their focus sliders).

Using the first example of three sliders, let's say these sliders represent Wheat, Stone, and Wood corresponding to A, B and C (50%, 25%, 25%).

We have 4 tiles we want to work, their yields are as follows (only in the categories I mentioned above): [4 wheat, 0 wood, 0 stone], [3 wheat, 3 wood, 3 stone] (imaginary tile), [0 wheat, 8 wood, 0 stone], [0 wheat, 0 wood, 8 stone].

If we multiply these yields by our sliders, we attain the following "value" for each tile: [4 wheat * 50% = 2 + 0 + 0] = 2, [3 wheat * 50% = 1.5 + 3 wood * 25% = 0.75 + 3 stone * 25% = 0.75] = 3, [8 wood * 25% = 2 + 0 + 0] = 2, [8 stone * 25% = 2 + 0 + 0]

Therefore the "values" of these tiles are 2, 3, 2, and 2. The city would prioritize putting citizens in the value 3 tile. After this, it would likely dump the remaining citizens into the first value 2 tile. This is a tie, but it would probably be easiest to sort the tiles that "tie" in value by the sliders, ie because the first tile has more wheat than the other two, it's chosen first. It should be noted that because the value 3 tile is 50% more valuable than a value 2 tile, the city may choose to "overwork" that tile and "underwork" the other tiles because it would be more valuable to do so.
 
thanks for the feedback.

Adding sliders (or any kind of new actions) are middle/long term development, planned, but with prerequisite, like a system to propagate the action between players to keep MP game synchronized, I've not tried to hack that into the game's chat system yet, so we'll have to do without ATM. There is also the whole coding the AI to use it part, which is a big one.

Housing for example is the only way I can think of to allow you to control your population growth without provoking a revolution when that mechanism will be added, because health (to be added, that's when fresh water become relevant again), food and housing needs, I plan to have only the later to not generate unhappiness in a city.

As discussed before, I think bringing back a governor building or adding a local assembly building with code to handle city construction based on population needs will remove the micromanagement issue. That may be possible before new action (because then a new action "stop growth" in a city would also work and take the place of all the housing mechanism)

You're going to need gold for construction soon, I think I've talked about it in one of the first post about economy, actually you get money when resources are traded, and you will buy those resources when constructing something requiring them.

Look at the "material" unit price, multiply by what's required by a building, divide by the number of turns, that's the cost/turn to build something. So high ATM, that I've not implemented it yet, I need either a debt mechanism or lower the material cost drastically.

Or I could lower all the resources "cost", because what you gain on trade is also based on it.

And/or add the taxes mechanism, that when you'll be happy to have upper class population in your cities.

In short: you get a lot of money now, but it's because the expenses are not coded yet.

I plan to reintroduce the ability to "rush" something using (more) gold at some point.

About citizen management, you have a point, I'll have to think more about it. But I don't know if we can code something to change the relation city size / citizen slots available ATM, else we could already use the current UI to have something similar to your proposal.

Also, using the type of work (slots) available to determine the social stratification is still planned.
 
...I found I was building housing so often that I didn't have time for military or buildings. Maybe I was growing too fast though.

What game speed are you playing? I've been seeing odd (inverse) behavior in population growth rate at slower game speeds (epic or marathon), where it's actually accelerated. Cities will initially jump in population for the first few turns, quickly reaching 3-4 pop. That has a cascading effect on resource gathering and supply, production, culture spread etc. Housing also reaches capacity much sooner.
 
-Currency is hard to place. The first form of credit and debt established was probably around 2000 BC but coins were not minted until around 700 BC, which is much closer to the classical period.
The first stage of currency grew out of a need of a system to represent the value of commodities, so they used pieces of metal, but this led to an economic collapse as anyone could just make money, as there was no system in place to protect it. This led to the need for coinage, so Gedemon could implement this by making Coinage an application of Currency.
Speaking of currency, in relation with my post above and the construction cost inducing the requirement of a debt mechanism at the beginning of the game, how should we handle "treasury", "debt", resources"cost" before coinage ?

Should we remove everything (assuming "barter" and "forced labor" is the background economy) then introduce income from trade/population and construction cost with currency ?

How to translate currency and coinage in game's mechanism ? (relation to buildings like the market, relation to transferring resources between cities ?)
 
Societies have always had wealth. Originally, wealth was simply grain as that was the commodity that everyone needed. Trade was done in a debt system where you would trade your right to grain stored in the granary or temple for material goods. Often, grain was used directly in trade. Later, it became necessary to have something that could represent wealth which is when coinage was introduced.
 
Societies have always had wealth. Originally, wealth was simply grain as that was the commodity that everyone needed. Trade was done in a debt system where you would trade your right to grain stored in the granary or temple for material goods. Often, grain was used directly in trade. Later, it became necessary to have something that could represent wealth which is when coinage was introduced.

Are you by any chance the Dunkleosteus who worked on Terra Firma Craft?
 
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