GEMAH - An Alternate History Scenario (GEM Mod)

[emeralddude]

i went back to post a save and the problem apparently fixed itself. sorry for any worry i might have caused you!

i just have one question: why aren't the khmer in this scenario? siam/ayutthaya didn't destroy the khmer until 1431.

 

[cheesemijit]

my bad about the khmer, when making the map i assumed that area would not have been affected by the fall of rome and therefore would be the same as the 1500AD scenario, but obviously alot can happen in 100 years, i will look khmer up now.

 

[emeralddude]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Empire#Decline_and_the_end_of_Angkor

some info on the decline of the khmer. after reading it, i thought of another question: what happened to the Plague? did it still happen?

 

[cheesemijit]

very good point. i am not very clear on the black death though. i believe it started in china and as the trade routes between rome and china are stronger than in medieval times the plague would have hit about the same, as it is blanced by the increased public health of the romans.

On Khmer; http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_1400ad.jpg and the wikipedia article show that in 1400AD there was no khmer empire. i dont know why at the top of the wikipedia article it says 1431. from what i have read the khmer empire was ended by the black death, which should have proceeded as normal in asia.

I might add the black death to the back story and have it happen a little bit later (because china had a bit better health as it was not taken over by the mongols) and use this as a reason to lower the worlwide populations, for balance and fun (having your cities stagnating from the start is boring).

 

[emeralddude]

"A Thai uprising established the kingdom of Ayutthaya in 1350, which would eventually absorb all that once was the Khmer Empire by 1431."

That's what the Civilopedia says about the end of the Khmer. I'm not sure what to make of it.

 

[cheesemijit]

As an Economic and Cultural Power, the khmer continued untill 1431, but as a political power they had ended somewhere between 1320 and 1350.

I am currently converting this map to RoM, but after that would you like to see another map based on the same alternate events? eg: 500 AD, or 1500AD or 1600AD so settlement of the americas can be predetermined.

 

[emeralddude]

the predetermined colonization would be great. ive always wondered where the romans would colonize.

 

[Lachlan]

Can you make 18 Civs Versions on Standard, or if you prefer Large Earth ?

Because Giant Earth Map is really too big for me and 18 Civs on Large or Standard Earth is like have 40 civs on giant earth map

 

[cheesemijit]

@emeralddude: so do i, infact where should they colonize? every game i have played they have settled brazil, venzuelia and the carribean, but the vikings get to east coast NA first. The byzantines usually settle whats left (so mexico and south south america). In this alternate history i think the romans would have settled around the mexican gulf, byzantines settle south america, vikings settle east coast USA and japanese/ chinese settle west coast usa and mexico. should the aztecs/incans still be alive? and when exactly should we set it? 1500? 1550? 1600? 1650?....

@Lachlan: i could but there are already loads of scenario's on Large and standars earth maps where those who prefer more detail are being left out.

 

[emeralddude]

1650:
Vikings: Quebec, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, the Hudson Bay, East coast down to about Delaware. Has opportunity to expand into Canada and the Great Plains.
Rome: East coast from Virginia down to Florida, Along the coast of Lousiana, Texas, and Mexico, the Caribbean, Mesoamerica, Colombia, maybe Venezuela. Has opportunity to expand into the Rockies and Great Plains or conquer Incas. Or they could be in the middle of conquering the Aztecs and Incas.
Byzantium: East coast of S. America from Guyana to about Uruguay. Has opportunity to expand into Central Brazil.
China: West coast of N. America from about British Columbia to Northern California, Hawaii, maybe Alaska. Has opportunity to expand into Canada and the Rockies.
Japan: Southern California to tip of Baja Peninsula, West coast of S. America from below the Incas to Tierra del Fuego. Has opportunity to conquer Incas or expand into Central Brazil.

Should the rest of the world have anything? And what's going on in the Old World?

I really don't know much about what the AI does when settling. The only game I've really gotten far with is Song China. It's 1589, and no one else has settled the Americas mainly because the Vikings keep losing cities to revolutions, Rome and Byzantium are conquering the germanic tribes, and Jpan hasn't even discovered astronomy. (They were nice enough to steal all the goody huts, though.) I've settled from Vancouver to Sacramento, and the east coast of Australia. By the way, I like the Impis you put in Australia and New Zealand to represent the Aborigines and the Maori.

 

[Rallas]

Concerning colonization i think the Byzantines should be much more focused on Australia, Indonesia, and Southern Africa.

The Vikings similar to their historical expansion focus on Northern America like Maine, Massachusets, Canada.

The Chinese and Japanese should all fight for the same region, the West Coast creating a similar sitution as to what happened on the East Coast in real life(extreme competition between France, Britain, the Netherlands, and Sweden to a degree.)

Rome should focus on the Core of the modern US, New York, DC, Maryland, Virgina, Florida, and Texas. Other primary for them should be Carribean.

As for any other nations committing to colonization I think the Franks should have the opportunity to create their colonial empire that the French created in real life if the right events happen(Rome does not encroach, Franks conquer either some Roman cities or Saxon or Vandal cities.)

The nation of Kiev should be able to create the Russian Empire and settle Alaska(In other words make the AI want to expand all the way to the other side of Asia) however Kiev shouldnt be the only ones allowed to take Alaska.

The Moors should aim for South Africa and South America(South Africa to create tension with the Byzantines.)

Only other colonizing power should be the Gupta Empire as with the Roman influence in their culture they would embrace more western thoughts like colonization and head for places like Indonesia and Australia.

I'm currently working on another game as the Romans and when a little bit further i'll post pictures but some interesting factors are:
*Rebuilt the Western Roman Empire*
*Helped the Gupta Empire retake Northern Central India and got Rome a few cities*
*Byzantines settled Madagascar and Australia*
*Helped Song China defeat the Yuan and took Northern China for myself*

Only thing i can reccomend now is certain names of new nations when a rebellion or releasing of cities happens. For example Rome should have the nations Gallia, Hispania, Britannia, Italia, Africa, and America(Should have standard dynamic names.) Only reason is cause its wierd to see "Holy Roman rebels rise up in the Golden Horde territories"

 

[cheesemijit]

That helps alot. I do think however that the vikings would settle alot more of NA leaving rome to just florida/carribean/mexico. For Kiev i will have to set up some more barbian cities across siberia so there are not randomly settled cities by the mongols/timurids which is what i am seeing now.

There is no way to change what civilisation spawns out of another or what its name is, the code is set to do it randomly and changing that is beyond my skills.

 

[Rallas]

ahhh k and good point probably better to give the Vikings more of NA and Rome more of Central America.

 

[emeralddude]

i definitely think the aztecs and incas should be independent, and thriving. maybe the romans or byzantines or someone could give them guns and other advanced stuff? that way they could expand a little, and not be taken over.

 

[cheesemijit]

could you give a bit more detail. i like to think i am keen and knowledgeable on european history but the far east and americas are a blue to me. if you could write the backstory from aztec contact with europe (1450-1500AD, Rome or Viking or maybe even Moor) to 1650AD then that would be great. otherwise its back to wikipedia! i have started on the GEMAH 1650AD scenario but i am starting to realise just how much could have changed in 250 years (Mongol Khanates Collapses?, War between ROme and Byzantines?) so i may need to go back to the drawing board.

 

[Rallas]

Rome would be the best to meet the Aztec first, meeting them around 1470. Invasions of the Aztec coastline began shortly afterward however without gunpowder the inner jungle territory remains to 1650 in Aztec hands.

Meanwhile the Chinese begin colonizing the new world around 1430 with the first colonial city of Zhendow(named after Zheng He) they make vassals out of the neighboring Indians and then stop advancing any further into the mainland(The reason is dynastic sucession and a priority on the Asian continent being more important then colonial expansion.)

The Japanese are the most sucessful of the colonial powers meeting the Inca in 1490 they quickly conquer and convert them to both their religion and cultural beliefs. By 1630 the state of Yamato(located in historical Inca territory.) is upset with the mainland(cant develop reasons yet.) and rebels against their Japanese lords. The Yamato Revolution ends in a success with the first free nation in the new world.

The Franks discover the new world in 1530 after a raid on Metz(taken by the Romans in 1420) reveals the new continent. Discovery of America leads millions of Franks to boats to sail to the New world fleeing the Roman army headed for Bremen(to finish the reconquering of the Frankish territory.) the Franks settle in the Quebec region and grow close to the Native Americans nearby. In 1540 Bremen falls and the Frankish state is now reduced to Quebec. As of 1650 they are in a close alliance with the nearby Native Americans and are facing a looming war with the Vikings who seek Quebec for their control.

The Byzantines began colonizing Australia in 1600 after sucessfully taking the Malaaca Strait by 1650 they control most of Indonesia and W. Australia

Thats my opinion on what would happen to the major colonizers(Thought the Frank situation would be unique and never seen again in history.) ill work on the rest of the ideas for what has happened in 250 years.

 

[emeralddude]

how about the mongols? the golden horde needs to be gone if kiev is going to create a russian empire.

and i seriously doubt that the aztecs could fight the romans for 200 years.

 

[Rallas]

Hmm and i found a flaw in that plan as well since the Romans would have gunpowder eventually. Perhaps they got aid from the Chinese plus the geogrpahy created an American Revolution situation where Rome is GB?

Kiev should be spread all the way out from the West to the Eastern borders but they have little cities once you cross the Urals and are in Siberia. This allows for both a gigantic Russia but also not a superpower. In the 1650 timeline they should have either Ukraine or Russia as their offical nation name. To represent the fact that Kiev unified the territory however the surname should be Rurik with a standard Russian name as the leaders first name. The other option is to have Russian first name and Of Kiev as surname. Russia should have a title of Grand Prince so a possble leader could be Grand Prince Yaroslav III Rurik

 

[Rallas]

Okay here is a brief summary of what has happened to the major European powers from 1400-1650

The Romans

Spoiler :

Euro-Asian Territory:The Romans upon sucessfully beating the Moors back from Iberia experiance a golden age of military advancements. In 1420 they took Metz from the Franks beginning a period of retaking their lands wrapping up the conquering in 1540 with the sucessful conquering of Bremen. In the north a stalemate forces the Romans and Vikings to sign the Treaty of Eboracum(1490) in it York would be ceeded to the Romans while the island of Ireland would be released to the Vikings. In 1630 after a long battle with the Byzantines the Romans lost their Indian provinces with the Treaty of Constantinople.

Catholic Church:In 1460 The Pope after gaining a large victory in the sucessful retaking of Iberia for Christianity makes three gigantic political moves. The first is called the Conversion. This event began a large missionary effort to conver the pagan nations of Europe to Catholicism(the sucess or failure of it is up to you.) The second major move was the sucessful election of the Pope to the position of Consul. This move combined with the Declaration of Rome restricted the position of Consul to the Roman Pope.

Roman Colonization: The Romans discover the new world in 1470 and settle their first colony of Nova Roma on the island of Cuba. One year later the Romans discover the Aztec. Immediantly upon discovery they attempt to conquer them succeding in only taking their coastal provinces(The Chinese aid the Aztecs in preventing the Roman advance into Tenochtitlan in return for a yearly amount of gold being sent to Beijing which was taken in 1470 in a war between the Song and Yuan) in 1480 the Treaty of Beijing was signed ending the war on a ceasefire however there are still Roman plans to finish what they started in 1471. From 1470-1650 the Romans expand their empire establishing cities in southern North America and Central America.

The Byzantines

Spoiler :

Euro-Asian Territory:The Byzantines experiance little changes in their European territories as their goal was not to conquer the barbarians but rather to retake Mesopotamia from the Timurids. In Asia they gained all of Southern India for their control with the Treaty of Constantinople(1630) from the Romans leaving them with just the island of Sri Lanka(for trade)and were even sucessful in putting a relative of the Byzantine Emperor on the Gupta throne bringing the two empires one step closer to a complete union of crowns. After some wars with the Timurids and the Timurids political collapse the Byzantines retook some key cities near Mesopotamia however the Timurids were replaced by the Alakamid dyansty in Persia beginning more warfare for the Byzantines in the future.

Byzantine Government: The Byzantine government does not change much from what it was in 1400. Only difference is with the rise of their colonies in the East free trade is a much beter economic policy for them. The Orthodox church unlike the Catholic remains outside of Byzantine politics other then crowning the new Emperor. the Orthodoxs do attempt in 1470 try to counter the Roman Conversion of the Pagans with their own however only one can succed.

Byzantine Colonization: The Byzantines colonized much of Indonesia in a rather short time due to their Gupta allies and nearby Indian provinces. By 1600 they controlled the Malaaca Strait and had ships almost arriving at Australia. In 1601 the capital of the Byzantine colonies beyond India of Byzantiona(named after the original name of Constantinople) was founded. The Byzantines control in 1650 the Malaaca strait and Western Australia.

Next up Alakamid Persia and Song China.

 

[emeralddude]

great stuff. but do the chinese have any special reason to assist the aztecs? and for there to be a treaty of beijing, china has to control beijing.

one idea for the byzantines is that they could gain control of sri lanka and southern india as a jumping point into indonesia.