General Consensus: Stop at 3 Cities Early?

[bovinespy]

Hi all. Been fervently playing BtS on Prince, and regularly falling behind and getting my arse kicked, and every time I try to pinpoint when things seem to start going south, I find my problem has been early over-expansion.

Experienced players: do you generally stay small (3 cities) early on, even if there's great land nearby available for colonization? If not, how to do you keep up in tech? If so, what are your benchmarks for deciding when you can take on another city or two?

FWIW, I exclusively play Epic, Large Big/Small, Islands, Separate Island Groups, 12 Civs.

 

[njorls]

The old mantra, "Land Is Power". If it's great land, grab it. Prioritise Code of Laws and whip some courthouses. If you're getting a profit at 50% research you can definitely afford another city.

 

[bovinespy]

The old mantra, "Land Is Power". If it's great land, grab it. Prioritise Code of Laws and whip some courthouses. If you're getting a profit at 50% research you can definitely afford another city.

That's what I used to think (and the way I've been playing). But even after prioritizing CoL, unless I get it via the Oracle, it tends to come way too late - by that point, most of the AI are already ahead of me (or so it seems).

Still, it's so damn hard to look at some ripe, juicy real estate and say "NO!". Just like people have talked about "wonder-addiction", I think I am suffering from "territory-addiction"!

 

[Kennigit]

I'm a big fan of REXing and I try to expand very quickly. To compensate the strain on my economy, beeline Monarchy so that cities can grow to work more cottages in a CE.

I pick up the worker techs first (straight for BW first so I can chop out first units/settler/work boat), then usually the agriculture/animal husbandry/pottery & fishing area, and head for Monarchy. Often I skip hunting, which means I have to efficiently fog-bust or grab some horse/copper in my early expansion so that barbarian axemen don't kill my warriors.

While I beeline Monarchy, I get as many cottages up and running along river tiles or grassland as I can- I still usually have to drop back to 50-40% research when finishing up monarchy. Granaries will be in most of my cities, meaning they can start growing at skyrocketing rates. W/o hunting, I can still build warriors for hereditary rule. It will take a little while for your economy to get all the way up, but you'll be able to get it to around 70% and then maybe 80% when you get CoL.

As for city positions, I try to work it out to be able to run the most cottages possible. I'll split a super city, say corn, cow, floodplains, and horse, into two cities- maybe a corn/floodplain and a cow/horse/1 or 2 floodplains overlapping. This allows two size 3 ish cities w/ 3 cottages a piece rather than 1 size 4 or 5 city, the happy cap for emperor/immortal pre-hereditary rule.

 

[Virulent]

That's what I used to think (and the way I've been playing). But even after prioritizing CoL, unless I get it via the Oracle, it tends to come way too late - by that point, most of the AI are already ahead of me (or so it seems).

Still, it's so damn hard to look at some ripe, juicy real estate and say "NO!". Just like people have talked about "wonder-addiction", I think I am suffering from "territory-addiction"!

Honestly, if you see an excellent place to put a city take it. If you don't then the AI will. It might temporarily set you back but it will be worth it once you get it up and running. Having a bunch of good cities is much better than having a bunch of crappy ones.

When I play, I generally want the following types of cities early on: 1) A cottage spammed commerce city 2) A GP farm 3) A good production city (preferably two: one for military units and one for wonders).

The capital is almost going to be in a good place for one of these types of cities and I try to find good places for the rest as early as possible.

 

[Ruler]

BTS is totally different than Warlords if you ask from me as AI tech more slowly it allow you to take more cities. I take pretty much everything if there's happiness or enough food for 2 scientist. Like in my last game on Emperor I took 7 cities without CoL. You can ask/trade money from AI once you get currency check it every turn sometimes you can get 100 from meditation in example and as you have many cities start to build a wonder in one of them but let AI builds it you get nice amount of money. You shouldn't have problems to get CoL even you expand like mad. Don't forget your workers though.

 

[r_rolo1]

You can always play with Shaka. Sustainable 60% with 5/6 cities with Ikhandas pre-CoL

 

[futurehermit]

don't over-expand until you get currency and col

unless you have:

-a leader-based advantage like organized, financial, ikhandas, etc.
-good commerce tiles like gold/gems/silver/furs/etc
-if you got the pyramids you can go down to 0% sci and still tech fast with scientists

in most cases i just nab a few cities until my tech drops to 70% then i decide what i'm going to do. if i have a close neighbour, i'll attack them and use the plunder to keep my tech up. i still don't delay currency-col too long but a deviation to aesthetics-lit is a possibility. if i don't have a close neighbour i'll prioritize currency-col and commerce cities and expand peacefully for awhile.

tip: you can pre-build and pre-position settlers and then settle them once you chop/poprush courthouses in your exisiting cities.

 

[Phrederick]

Building a city takes a long time to pay off, but it WILL pay off by the renaissance or industrial eras. If you're not playing to fight before then, it can be worth it to take on an extra city or two early and fall behind in tech, because it will pay off down the road. For me, it all depends on the situation. If I'm hemmed in by other civs, I'll only build 2-3 cities and then start expanding by war. If I have a lot of room, I'll expand as much as I can before gearing up for economic stabilisation followed by war.

 

[NaZdReG]

the research slider can be deceptive. its really about your actual beakers per turn.

if you have 3 cities at pop 6, 4 cottages per city say at 4 commerce.
this is roughly 50 commerce per turn including palace.

at 70% slider this is 35 beakers per turn

if you have 6 cities at pop 6, 4 cottages per city at 4 commerce
this is roughly 100 commerce per turn including palace.

but maintainance has dragged your econ to 50% science.. or roughly 50 beakers per turn.

you still are up 15 beakers per turn, and are working 12 more cottages than you would in scenario 1. this is 12 more developing into towns in the long run.

you also control the space those 3 occupy, and can leverage their production.

6-7 cities by the start of medieval is a good marker. it is also the required number for completing a lot of the quests that are issued. while the payoffs aren't GREAT they are decent.

in additon, if you have to, you can work farms in addition to the cities and whip like crazy, etc. you also control more resources through the expanded territory.

NaZ

 

[futurehermit]

6-7 cities by the start of medieval is a good marker. it is also the required number for completing a lot of the quests that are issued. while the payoffs aren't GREAT they are decent.

I kinda like 8 cities = Forbidden Palace

 

[NaZdReG]

ah good point hermit. I usually take that for granted as the forbidden palace ends up in my victim's old capitol. usually I swell from between 6-8 to 10-14 cities and drop courthouses in the captured cities and the forbididden palace.

NaZ

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

No general consensus. I'm a city maniac myself, and rather than being choosey, I keep anything as long as MR > MC upon reaching communism. Of course, that does require some planning ahead, as you need to envision which cities you'll have by the time you research communism, and whether the enemy city you just captured in 2010BC will satisfy that criteria many years later. That's what makes the MC part hard. The MR part is further complicated by the MR you gain from all your other cities for having one more hapiness.

You need a lot more cities just for physical positioning purposes if you're planning to win by domination or conquest. MR>MC is a rule only for other victory conditions.

Rule of thumb: keep any city that:
- allows an improvement in all 20 of its tiles, even if it's not grasslands
- does not overlap with any other city's fat cross
- provides a resource that you don't have yet (don't count trades, as trading can be blockaded in BTS, and allies arne't always reliable)

Personal preference: beware of any non-coastal cities. Coastal cities are sorely undervalued for its commerce bonus.

 

[Percy]

Sorry i'm thick, what are MR and MC please ?

 

[knez]

marginal revenue and marginal cost

 

[Sjaramei]

3-4 cities early on before Code of Laws is usually a good strategy (at least if you intend to get some good early wonders like Pyramids) If you go the axe rush route claiming 2-4 cities is optimal depending on locations.(Don't build any city, take the good spots, preferably high production/food and strategic metal/horse) Just let the plunder money fund your research towards CoL and keep the good cities.

If you have loads of land consider expanding peacefully until you can make balanced stacks with siege and axes/swords/spears instead

 

[futurehermit]

peaceful expansion should involve currency-col and cottages

aggressive expansion should involve currency-col and units

 

[jihe]

grab as much land as you can. I like alphabet early since you can build research to
get through the tough times.

 

[futurehermit]

better to build commerce and boost your slider up imo

 

[slaze]

better to build commerce and boost your slider up imo

They're equal, except for the fact that you have libraries in your cities and not markets yet.