General Custer(Read thread before voting)

[allhailIndia]

General Custer is considered as a great hero for his last stand etc. etc. in the US. Here are some facts to be known before the judgement is passed.

1.During the civil war, General Custer's was the regiment to have taken the most casualties as his favoured mode of attack was the blind charge.

2.Custer had never fought Indians face to face before Little Big Horn, save in small skirmishes and in an incident where he attacked them at night after having made peace with them.

3.Before the battle, the 7th cavalry was one of the worst regiments and had few experienced veterans and a lot of greenhorns, with little or no training.

4.Before trying to attack, Custer had been informed by his guides of the largest collection of Indian tribes ever near him and had ignored their advice.

5.He split up his own men to try and form a nutcracker by himself on the Indians (only one meaning intended Darkshade!!)

6.He saw only women and children in the camp and charged at it with the belief that the men were away.

I quote my source as Frederick Forsyth whose research I have deep faith in.

If anybody has irrevocable proof that I am hopelessly wrong, please bring it to my notice

 

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by allhailIndia
6.He saw only women and children in the camp and charged

If this is true, there can be only one answer to your poll.

 

[LaRo]

Custer, hero?

I just lost, he did nothing great. Don't desearve to be call a hero.

 

[Sodak]

2) He led an army regiment on the plains for a long time. He was well known among the indians because he was an arrogant bully. While not outright hostile to indians, he definitely saw his role as one who needed "to put them in their place."

4) His visions of grandeur probably saw an opportunity to once and for all break the plains tribes. Win this one, it's all over...

5) The southern force was to attack first, drawing all the warriors from the villages to that point. Custer then figured he would charge in along a gulley (!) from the east, finding...

6) oops! It seems the indians had the fine idea to look around before running off en masse to meet the southern attack front. Custer and his men raced down a gulley and found themselves completely surrounded by hundreds of warriors. By most accounts, Custer was one of the last men to die - tho he was laid low by a gunshot, he may have just been left to writhe until the end, as he was the 'prize' kill of the battle.

In short, on at least one occasion, he was a complete fool.

 

[Sodak]

allhailindia - For a good take on the indians' side of the story, read 'Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee,' by Dee Brown.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Based upon the evidence presented, Custer was an over aggressive commander who rose above the level he should. Some of his actions were very foolish indeed.

I am reminded of a little joke about the battle. Not really factual, but funny:

Custer and his men are surrounded. Slowly, the numbers are whittled down, until he finds himself with a handful of native guides. He takes it upon himself to give a brave rallying speech, to urge them onto glorious death. "C'mon men! We can ride into history here! We can go down fighting! We can give these injuns a good lickin'! We -"
He looks around to see the guides hastily shucking off their uniform and getting the hell out of there. One turns around and says
"We white man?"

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by allhailIndia
I quote my source as Frederick Forsyth whose research I have deep faith in.

He was fool enough. But FF wrote a book on Custer? What's it called, I will buy it in a second!

R.III

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

I don't know of anybody that thinks him a hero, or anyone else from the Indian wars for that matter.

 

[Apollo]

Originally posted by allhailIndia
General Custer is considered as a great hero for his last stand etc. etc. in the US.

Well as an American I think I have a unique perspective on this.

Custer is not at all a hero. People make fun of him for his stupidity, and the story of his last stand goes along with such stories as "The Emperors New Clothes" as one used to teach people what not to do.

 

[Andu Indorin]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
I don't know of anybody that thinks him a hero, or anyone else from the Indian wars for that matter.

I concur with this evaluation insofar as it applies to his record against the Indians after the Civil War. An altogether terrible record ...

However, his record as a brigade and divisional commander in the Civil War was comparatively distinguished; a fact that many overlook owing to the brutality of his "campaigns" against the Native Americans. Some historians have even gone so far as to evaluate him as the best cavalry officer on the Union side. (Sustaining high casualties can be a sign of troops willing to fight for their commander in difficult circumstances; if I recall correctly, the "Wolverines" under Custer almost always held their ground in a fight.)

 

[NY Hoya]

Originally posted by Apollo
Well as an American I think I have a unique perspective on this.

Custer is not at all a hero. People make fun of him for his stupidity, and the story of his last stand goes along with such stories as "The Emperors New Clothes" as one used to teach people what not to do.

I concur. I'm not too sure where allhailIndia got the idea that Custer is considered by many to have been a hero. If he had won, perhaps, but that's not the case...

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Good points, Andu.

We could add that he rose to Brevet general's rank, and was considered a good officer by Sheridan, his commander in Virginia.

 

[allhailIndia]

Originally posted by Richard III


He was fool enough. But FF wrote a book on Custer? What's it called, I will buy it in a second!

R.III

HE incorporated this in his short story Whispering Wind in his new book "THe Veteran"

 

[Vrylakas]

Hey, wait a minute - why is AllHailIndia writing about Custer? I thought he was attacking American Indians at Wounded Knee...?

(Just kidding.)

I concur with AofA, that in my experience Americans think of Custer as a symbol for arrogance and foolishness. I don't think they go to the scene of the battle and weep for him.

 

[Panda]

Originally posted by Sodak
allhailindia - For a good take on the indians' side of the story, read 'Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee,' by Dee Brown.

I can only second that.

 

[allhailIndia]

I must say that Custer was seen as a hero or branded as one at least in the early part of this century and in the late part of the century as a rallying symbol to take over Indian lands. However, it seems my knowledge is a bit outdated

BTW does anyone know where I can read a review of this book

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Try here, allhailIndia

http://www.2think.org/woundedknee.shtml

Many things about American values have changed in just the last 30 years.

 

[napoleon526]

Many things about American values have changed in just the last 30 years.

Very true. People used to think of Custer of a valiant and dashing commander who bravely fought a hopeless battle against the heathen redskins. Now we realize just what a fool he really was. Custer divided his command into two parts in the face of a vastly superior force. He should not even have come anywhere near the Indian camp, since the Oglala, Lakota, Hunkpapa, Crow, and Cheyenne tribes had formed an unprecidented alliance.

The five companies under Custer's direct command (262 men) moved to the top of a small hill, which was eventually surrounded by Indians and overwhelmed. Custer also went up against three of the Indians most formidable commanders: Sitting Bull of the Hunkpapa Sioux, Crazy Horse of the Lakota Sioux, and Gall of the Cheyenne. While Sitting Bull "made the medicine" (rituals intended to bring about victory), Crazy Horse inspired his braves with his personal valor in combat. Most of Custer's troops were armed with single-shot Springfield breechloading rifles, which were outclassed by the Henry repeating rifles of the Indians.

 

[allhailIndia]

Originally posted by napoleon526

. Most of Custer's troops were armed with single-shot Springfield breechloading rifles, which were outclassed by the Henry repeating rifles of the Indians.

The rest of your facts are true but this one is quite misleading because the Indians were not very proficient in the use of guns and were very bad at aiming them. Their preferrred weapon was still the Bow and arrow and in fact this proved to be quite deadly as the hail of arrows spread panic and fear among the horses of the 7th cavalry, which bolted off and prevented retreat. Also the fearsome war club of the Sioux was unmatched in close combat, and any Cavalryman, unlucky enough to be faced upto one, usually had his skull bashed in

 

[andyo]

Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
I am reminded of a little joke about the battle. Not really factual, but funny:

D

another one for you simon - know why the ground was all white and sticky after Custer's last stand?


because the indians just kept coming and coming and coming and coming