General Immortal/Diety Build Order Request

[XVBLACKFLAGVX]

I'm wondering if anyone could point me towards a general build order that works on higher difficulties. I'm just learning Civ 6 after finally putting down 5, and its a rough transition. For example, I have no idea how important monuments, granaries, and districts are in any sort of peaceful or military strategy, or what to prioritize in general. Any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers!

 

[Victoria]

A general guide is here
https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/civ-vi-early-game-guide-for-the-decidedly-average.27620/
Experts cannot agree on the same build order and to degree it is map and victory oriented so understanding concepts helps. Below are links to some guides and useful posts, the chop example post people find very useful. It is outdated a bit and I really need to update it but the concepts hold true.

 

[Knap]

Victoria
What game settings do you use ?(I think I have read Victoria and Continents) and what is your usual build order if using Victoria and Continents

 

[Victoria]

What game settings do you use ?(

I play 20% deity standard, standard continents but use a variety of civs now because Victoria is quite strong and I like a weaker more vanilla approach to get the feel for the game not the civ. I never use advanced options and I keep forgetting to set disasters to 0 but to be fair I just like to play the average game.
Same again 70% Emperor and 10% prince. I like messing around, I find victory conditions restrictive at times.

what is your usual build order

Playing seriously.... I would say 70% scout, 20% builder 10% warrior or sling. It depends only my locale (middle or coast and how much mountain protection). After that it’s either a scout has spotted me or a civ is coming toward me I will become a military defensive build order which is normally warriors before slings.... or Builders, settlers, granary perhaps, monument perhaps. It depends on what I am wanting, what CS I have met, what terrain I am on. I find if you play to the surroundings you do so much better than having a strict game plan/build order.
Build order is also dependant on civ, who would play Tomyris and not go AH/sling - builder

A bit like my reply today here - The First 25 Turns

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Its probably somewhere in the stuff victoria all linked you, but:
Theres basically 3things you might want before settler. (getting settlers out asap is your primary goal, so i don't even list that as a consideration, the consideration is what do you build before it)
-Worker
-Unit
-Monument.

Worker is the one you absolutely cant generalize in a build order. The value of connecting a luxury or horses asap is huge. The value of mines, pastures or quarries is interesting, but not automatically enough to make an early builder the right thing. Building 2 of those, providing +2 production per turn on your size 2 city is ok, but i think not often enough to seal the deal for building a worker. 2 of these and 1 luxury/horse is enough for me to want a worker. 3 simple production improvements like this is doubtful, any less and i'd rather wait a bit with the worker.

For units my philosophy is that i build it because i want to be the first to find city states. That will only happen if it is your very first build. If i dont decide a unit is going to be my first build, i wont build it at all. Goody huts can be great, (finding a worker or relic is omg OP) but its kinda rare and unreliable, mostly its just small bits of gold and useless tech boosts i was going to get anyway. If i build a unit, its almost always a slinger. I think the movement advantage of scouts is too small, and the slinger can do important work on boosting technologies.

Monuments are awesome. I have read somewhere that it would be out of fassion, but i still like it. It makes such a big difference in getting those early civics.

I will not build more than 2 of these options before my first settler and once started my capital just keeps building settlers. I am very focussed on getting those settlers out asap. If its a monument, its probably only the monument since as said, a unit after monument is not going to be useful for first contacting any CSes, and builder is kinda rare.

So most often its end up either:
slinger-monument-settler-settler-settler
or just
monument-settler-settler-settler

If i have land to scout in all directions, more than likely ill build a unit first, if i see a lot of water or big ass mountain ridges so i only have little directions to scout (and keep clear of barb invasions), more likely ill just do monument-settler. I play deity on standard speed and standard map size exclusively. Extra units and workers i produce in the newly built towns and/or buy with gold.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

So most often its end up either:
slinger-monument-settler-settler-settler
or just
monument-settler-settler-settler

Do you ever have to delay the settlers because of Barb Invasion or an Aggressive Neighbor gearing up to invade your capital??
I am in a game I played as Hungary at about turn 215 where I had a mass invasion of Barbs.
The Barbs gave my neighbor Egypt a much harder time.
The map was mostly plains/grass with not a ton of chops.
I managed to take all of the Expos of Egypt and had to make Peace.
After 10 or so turns I took her Capital.
It was about turn 110 or so and my land was pretty bare.
I made a bunch of settlers after that and some during. I managed to get 16 to 20 cities out by turn 125-130.

The game is won IMO as I have double tech lead and killed Brazil now as well.
I was playing on Continents and my other neighbor (Genghis Khan) has been my ally along with the others far away.

I did go builder/settler first as I have been trying to make that work after I was told it is usually the best build.
They tell me the AI can and will win earlier now like turn 250-275 but I haven't experienced that yet.
I am guessing it has to be a certain Civ like Korea or a certain type of situation.
Anyways... just curious if you ever have to just go heavy on military first before all those settlers?

 

[Lily_Lancer]

I play 75% builder and 25% scout. If there are at least 3 improvement-able tiles (if I give it a worker charge it will give me 1 more yield than the current best tile) within the 2nd ring, I'll do the builder.

If you have 3 more production you'll be producing the next settlers much faster. If you don't do that you'll miss the craftsman inspiration. My experience is that only when I start with a builder I can get that. After the initial build you'll be building either military(for defense) or settler(the best early game investment), there'll not be chance for you to pick up the builder unless you sacrifice some more important things.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Do you ever have to delay the settlers because of Barb Invasion or an Aggressive Neighbor gearing up to invade your capital??

Yes, it does happen and i must admit im not too shy of hitting that restart button if my greedy opening goes wrong. Mostly though, i find 2 units to be enough to handle barbs. I only worry about about a 10 tile radius around me, those are quickly scouted and then when you know where the camp is, you can kill any scouts that found you and try to get back to it, or even destroy the camp before they can get to it. Once the camp was found and killed, keep going back there to see if it reappeared, if it reappears at the same place after all. You can keep it in vision, but then they will appear elsewhere, so that may not be the best idea if there are unscouted area's closerby than this one. Agressive neighbours are very, very rarely an issue. Can't remember the last time it was a problem. I am very willing to give my nearest neighbour my first luxury to buy their friendship, as this is much cheaper than fighting. And of course don't settle on their doorsteps if you don't want war.

I am in a game I played as Hungary at about turn 215 where I had a mass invasion of Barbs.

215 is a i assume is a typo and you meant to say 15 ? Yes, it can happen. Thats when i press that restart button. 1 more unit wouldn't really solve that problem either. A smallish invasion is however much less of a problem, and part of the reason i don't always build a builder. Ill just let them attack my city a bit, and let them pillage whatever they like. If i don't have a builder, they don't have anything to pillage.

The Barbs gave my neighbor Egypt a much harder time.

And that is the reason i am selective in fighting barbs. If they didn't scout me, but my neighbour, they are closer to my neighbour etc, ill let them bother my neighbour. I'll just be on the lookout to see if i can get the camp kill by the time my neighbour handled the problem.

They tell me the AI can and will win earlier now like turn 250-275 but I haven't experienced that yet.

Oh i didn't know that number, i never really bother about when the AI could win. Might well be 250. Doesn't matter, you'll have control of the game, if not won it, long before that.

Anyways... just curious if you ever have to just go heavy on military first before all those settlers?

Whenever you want to conquer or forward settle your neighbours. But even then, it's imo not before a few settlers. If i have space for 3 cities without forward settling my neighbour whom i have not yet managed to befriend, i want those 2 settlers out asap. After that i start to build military, but i don't consider that my opening build. In the past, before expansion and patches, my usually opening would be zero settlers and just archer rush my neigbours right from the start. (building 6 slingers, upgrade to archers around T25ish, then move out while building more units) I stopped that because i was bored of it, just as they happened to nerf it. Don't know to what degree that strategy would still work.

Lily above writes he starts with a builder for the craftmanship inspiration. It is imo part of a bigger picture. I like that monument because it can help me go both ways. If you need to build early millitary (like after only 1 or 2 settlers, or even zero), then craftmanship is needed. The inspiration is about as effective to get it faster as is an early monument, but the worked tiles provide extra production as well. And since you are building units, you will be able to protect your worker/improvements. If you have space to build more cities peacefully, i like to go the bottom path on the civic tree to get my settler discount asap. In that case the monument is needed. Unfortunately we don't know this at the start. I like to assume the best: a peaceful start where i have space to settle at least 5 cities. And as indicated, i am not shy of restarting when things turn out too bad.
Note: Lily is probably a better player than I. But all of us here (me, lily, victoria) are very comfortable on deity, so i guess it comes down to what victoria said "Experts cannot agree on the same build order". Indicates a well balanced game And it is as victoria also indicated the most important that you know why you are doing things so that you can addept to the situation and combine the right choises.

 

[Knap]

Thanks Victoria

Anything you would specifically add into opening game when using Victoria and Continents.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Agressive neighbours are very, very rarely an issue. Can't remember the last time it was a problem. I am very willing to give my nearest neighbour my first luxury to buy their friendship, as this is much cheaper than fighting. And of course don't settle on their doorsteps if you don't want war.

I had 3 cities at turn 32 as I was clearing barb camps.
I didn't scout very good to the east but I had 10+ tiles between me and Nubia.
Also there was a mountain so she had to go North and around it.
We met each other kinda late at turn 23 or so.
So she was negative towards me so I tried your suggestion and gave her free Ivory.
My 2nd city was about 8 to 10 tiles away from her and a mountain dividing us.
She was happy for a turn and next turn it was negative again because of the city settled near her.
So I gave her free marble which gave me +10 modifier.
That lasted for a turn or two and she crushed me with those Pitati Archers.

I guess its my fault for not scouting in that direction or perhaps not making enough troops to block an invasion.
When I build more greedy with Builder First and other things I tend to have this problem on Deity Pangaea.
The games where I focus on Military First have a much higher success rate for me.
I suppose I just have a hard time reading the map/situation.
I am not a top player but with decades of experience and above average knowledge I feel like getting rolled should never happen.
Not sure if I hate crushing the AI where they never had a chance or getting rolled by the AI in the Early Game.
Both of these leave a sour taste in the mouth for me.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Yes, you need to understand how the AI relations work.

-On deity, you start at -2 to -8 i believe.
-The collored bar above the score is a cumulative of the per turn score. So you need to be positive on the numerical score for a while to get this bar to turn positive.
-The turn you meet them, they wil be neutral and always accept a delegation. This will give you a permanent +3. You must do this on the turn you meet them.
-If you can give open borders, that gives another +3, but that early you wont have the tech to do that.
-Gifts give about 1 point per 10-15 gold. The boost you get by gifts decline at 1 point every 2 turns.
-When the bar is above neutral (they have a green smiley on their portret), they will normally accept friendship requests, but not if you are both contesting an area to settle in between your lands. Even before you settle there. As soon as they settle, they will accept the friendship.
-The friendship declaration gives a big boost, so from there on you are pretty much safe. Make friendship as soon as you can. If they don't take it, its probably because they first want to make sure they get the contested area between you.

So, do whats needed to get in the positive, dont settle near them until you have a friendship declartion with them and you are pretty much guaranteed to be good.

In this case, maybe you could have declared friendship on that 1 turn she was happy. Maybe not, in that case you'd have to wait settling in their direction until after you get friendship. (or indeed build an army if you think you want to pay that price so that you can settle there)

 

[XVBLACKFLAGVX]

Thank you guys for all the input. I'm definitely going to experiment with some of these suggestions in my upcoming games. As an aside, what do you guys normally opt for as first builds in your expansions? I normally que up an archer or builder first, but I'd love to hear your opinions.

 

[Victoria]

using Victoria and Continents.

Builder scouting to sea with 1 charge can be invaluable but the craftsmanship eureka is such a big production saver it can be quite a sacrifice, especially on continents. I will sacrifice the eureka on island to get that builder to sea but not on continents. So Victoria + continents = nothing changes.

 

[Builderphile]

Yes, you need to understand how the AI relations work.

-On deity, you start at -2 to -8 i believe.
...
-The turn you meet them, they wil be neutral and always accept a delegation. This will give you a permanent +3. You must do this on the turn you meet them.

This is definitely not the case on higher difficulties. At immortal/deity, a civ will almost never accept a delegation on the turn you meet them. It is frustrating.

 

[Victoria]

At immortal/deity, a civ will almost never accept a delegation on the turn you meet them. It is frustrating.

I can, sure it’s not some mod?

 

[Fluphen Azine]

This is definitely not the case on higher difficulties. At immortal/deity, a civ will almost never accept a delegation on the turn you meet them. It is frustrating.

I never have had a problem with sending a delegation in the current state of the game.
Sometimes when I am busy with Barbs and or War I may forget to send one and that causes problems.
I think what you meant to say was they don't accept DoF immediately.
The truth of the matter is that sometimes the AI is just going to come for you.
My last two starts as the Ottomans were amazingly difficult IMO.
Little Room for Expansion.
France upset at me both times.
Very Poor Dirt or Ocean/Tundra only.
If you noticed the above comment was that the player has no problem with Re-Rolling in certain situations.
I'm kinda stubborn and like to slog out these kind of games.

I decided to play a 3rd time as the Ottomans.
Deity All Standard except Low Sea Level.
Disaster Level 2.
This is what happened because I went North with the Warrior instead of South.
Actually I went Warrior First and after I seen the Scout on turn 3 I figured I might have a problem.
Turns out the Flood made it worse lol.

For me the game is either no problems and I cruise to some sort of easy victory or...
Many problems, in the Early game, which I overcome eventually, unless rolled by a neighbor.

Spoiler Barbs cause a Flood :

On turn 73 I managed to raze two of Japans cities.
Dark Age is just killing me.
Razing cities upsets everyone else in the game lol.
I'm not sure if this is a viable way to play.
Fun for me but probably would of been better not to go to war.
Japan DoWed America so I wanted to pillage a little in Japan.
Better would of been to try to play nice and expand as much as possible asap.
DoF everyone near me and trade... I just find it dull at times but this is a different kind of headache.
Straight Military, in a Dark Age, is difficult on the Culture and Science and now Trade is FUBAR.
Golden Age and I most likely sweep up Japan.
Normal Age and I get 2 to 3 cities plus some builders and a roaming settler along with pillage.
So not only is Build Order important and reading your map but manipulating the Ages as well.
These guys that finish super fast usually have all Golden Ages from what I have read.
I see now that they are going Dark for Twilight but my government is a long way off.
Many Errors in my gameplay here but just sharing with you.
Others would probably settle the Horses and Iron asap.
Perhaps use Magnus to chop out the army and attack with Horses, Swords and Archers.
Personally I just like rushing in, even though I am ill prepared lol.

Spoiler War Torn Japan :

 

[Fluphen Azine]

So I replayed 100 turns and waited to DoW longer this time.
Grabbed Magnus x 2 which probably was a mistake as I didn't need the second promotion as I only built one settler.
However, he is good late game if you like to build some IZs and I could get into the Black Market with him now.
As you can see I have a combination of Swords, Horses, Archers and Chariots.

My build order was Warrior, Slinger, Settler this time.
I focused too much on military the first go round.
I make the mistake of hard building most stuff but this time I timed out chopping in Horses and even a Stable.
I made an early war with Japan to steal a settler cause I had prior knowledge basically.
Made Peace and made friends with my neighbors.
In my Expos I built Monuments First.
I had some gpt problems early and still not doing great but most of my first districts in the expos were Commercial Hubs.
I did go double Encampment to get some Generals rolling and I got two.
I actually did an Encampment Training as some other Civs were earning far many points.
So I didn't get into good record keeping for you for a Build Order this time... lazy.
In my Capital it went Warrior, Slinger, Settler, Builder, Monument, Scout, Settler, Stable, Horses x 2 and a Ram from habit.
In the first Expo I went Monument, Encampment Training, Builder.

I also have help that Japan keeps Dowing America otherwise his Xbows may have caused trouble.
I am still not doing very good compared to much superior players but perhaps you can something from this.
Of course I chopped with the Military Maneuver Card and was going Republic Government cause I had happiness issues.
I decided to switch to Oligarchy even though it is giving me some unhappiness cause of the War bonuses.
You can see the one Horse against the Pike is 67 vs 44.
After that I put the Raid Card in to Pillage and get large amounts of gold and other things.
Once again, this is not a great example, as I don't play very well but I think you see the idea is to get your troops strength up over the AI's Troops. The higher the better or faster you can cut through them.
Hopefully they won't have walls up and you can take over there empire.

I don't really enjoy playing through multiple times because it makes things easier with prior knowledge.
So in this game I most likely won't play much further and not sure what Governor to take next.
I guess you should just keep flooding in troops and take over the map.
One of my problems is I stop the Arms Race and turtle up which causes later Victory wins.

This game should go much smoother.
Destroy Japan and America should be worn down by that time.
I would try to keep the Mongols happy with me as long as possible.

Spoiler Second Run Through :

Spoiler Godzilla Invades Tokyo :

 

[Builderphile]

I can, sure it’s not some mod?

Whoa, whoa, whoa, if I have been missing something this whole time, this could be a game changer for me.

I have never installed a mod. Here is how it usually goes for me:

- I meet Civ;
- Civ asks if I want to see their city or exchange information on capitals
- I (usually) say yes
- I go to trade screen to send a delegation
- they (90% of the time) say "no thanks"

I do this all on the very turn I meet them. What am I doing wrong?

 

[Victoria]

I do this all on the very turn I meet them. What am I doing wrong?

Nothing that I can tell.
Grab a save from the turn before you meet a civ and post?

 

[Builderphile]

Nothing that I can tell.
Grab a save from the turn before you meet a civ and post?

I did a quick test, Immortal, single player, online speed standard map.

Here is the save from turn 4. If you move west, you meet England. I cannot send a delegation ("Parliament does not approve"). This is my standard experience on higher levels (on lower levels they always accept).

The save is attached.