Georg Elser

[RedRalph]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Elser

A lot of people are unaware of this, but this unknown Swabian joiner came within minutes of killing Hitler in 1939. What a brave man. I'd just like to highlight him, i think he deserves it.

 

[Dragonlord]

Good idea.

Hitler really had the luck of the Devil in avoiding this well thought out assassination attempt.

Just think, if Elser had set his timer only 15 minutes earlier, WWII and the Holocaust might have been avoided completely.
The mind boggles.

 

[Winner]

Good idea.

Hitler really had the luck of the Devil in avoiding this well thought out assassination attempt.

Just think, if Elser had set his timer only 15 minutes earlier, WWII and the Holocaust might have been avoided completely.
The mind boggles.

Too late for my country Although it sometimes give me a morbid pleasure to know that Britain/France paid a price for their idiocy.

 

[RedRalph]

Too late for my country Although it sometimes give me a morbid pleasure to know that Britain/France paid a price for their idiocy.

Think of it this way: your county would have been spared the worst of WW2 and what you imagine were the 'horros' of socialism if this guy had been an iota more lucky.
r
I think what I like so much about this guy is that there was no motivation for this other than goodness. He didn't have to do it, he knew what a risk it was, he had no cadre of army officers supporting him with logistic, escape, etc, he was just a man who saw that action needed to be taken and took it. A true hero.

 

[Agent327]

Hitler's luck actually had him survive 40 assassination attempts - which made him believe he was protected by destiny. In the end he realized his mistake and did himself in.

 

[Lord Baal]

Hitler's luck actually had him survive 40 assassination attempts - which made him believe he was protected by destiny. In the end he realized his mistake and did himself in.

Maybe not. After all, he was never killed by other, he shot himself. Maybe if he had walked up to the Russians, all their guns would have miraculously jammed, and Germany could have won the war by marching Hitler ahead of any army it launched. Kind of like the Hebrews with the Ark of War.

I read a short essay on this chap once. It made a few cogent points. Elser attempted the assassination because he was concerned with Hitler's threat to Germany, not out of the goodness of his heart. Even your Wikipedia link mentions that he sought to assassinate Hitler to prevent World War Two, not out of disagreement with his domestic policies - though he did disagree with them. So there were motivations other than "goodness." Still, too bad he didn't pull it off.

 

[Dragonlord]

Maybe not. After all, he was never killed by other, he shot himself. Maybe if he had walked up to the Russians, all their guns would have miraculously jammed, and Germany could have won the war by marching Hitler ahead of any army it launched. Kind of like the Hebrews with the Ark of War.

I read a short essay on this chap once. It made a few cogent points. Elser attempted the assassination because he was concerned with Hitler's threat to Germany, not out of the goodness of his heart. Even your Wikipedia link mentions that he sought to assassinate Hitler to prevent World War Two, not out of disagreement with his domestic policies - though he did disagree with them. So there were motivations other than "goodness." Still, too bad he didn't pull it off.

on the first

To the second: not quite true. One of the factors of his opposing Hitler was his horror at the Reichskristallnacht, so Hitler's domestic politics definitely played a part.

Also, I fail to see why wanting to prevent a catastrophic war doesn't count as "goodness".

Also, please remember that in 1939 the worst of Hitler's domestic policies (including the Holocaust, if you count that as 'domestic') were still in the future.

 

[RedRalph]

Maybe not. After all, he was never killed by other, he shot himself. Maybe if he had walked up to the Russians, all their guns would have miraculously jammed, and Germany could have won the war by marching Hitler ahead of any army it launched. Kind of like the Hebrews with the Ark of War.

I read a short essay on this chap once. It made a few cogent points. Elser attempted the assassination because he was concerned with Hitler's threat to Germany, not out of the goodness of his heart. Even your Wikipedia link mentions that he sought to assassinate Hitler to prevent World War Two, not out of disagreement with his domestic policies - though he did disagree with them. So there were motivations other than "goodness." Still, too bad he didn't pull it off.

the wiki article actually contradicts that, Elser was a communist and very much opposed to Hitler's domestic policies

His opposition was initially motivated by his concerns about working conditions, and the lowering of working wages. His understanding of politics was influenced strongly by his political associations. He detested the restrictions on civil rights. He especially despised Nazi restrictions on workers' freedoms, such as the choice of employment and the right to organize. Equally, he loathed the Nazis' propaganda and their total control of the educational system, as well as the curtailing of religious freedoms.

 

[Masada]

Seems like a good bloke, shame he wasn't successful. This passage from wiki is lulsome though:

Regarding his religious beliefs, Elser was a Protestant of a simple, non-intellectual and traditional type. His only prayer was the Lord's Prayer, which he said daily, and which he said sustained him in the burdensome preparations for his assassination attempt[citation needed].

 

[RedRalph]

That is lulsome actually.... the communist who prays to a protestant god for the power to kill...

 

[Winner]

Think of it this way: your county would have been spared the worst of WW2 and what you imagine were the 'horros' of socialism if this guy had been an iota more lucky.

Yeah? I think it would be far worse for us as an independent nation. Sure, many Jews and anti-Nazis would survive instead of being killed in ghettos and concentration camps, but our chance of getting Sudetenland back would be almost nil.

Without Hitler, the Germans wouldn't have attacked in the West and there would have been a good chance that after few years of Phony war, both sides would have thrown in the towel and signed peace. After all, Hitler would have been gone, more "sane" Nazis would have taken over (ok, Göring wasn't exactly a nice guy, but he didn't want a war - he just wanted to live in a blissful luxury for the rest of his life) and there was no reason why they couldn't have reached an acceptable peaceful resolution.

We can speculate about the terms of the peace treaty, but we'd be DAMN lucky if the Germans withdrew at least from the rump post-Munich Bohemia-Moravia. In any case, we'd be left with a failed state totally dependent on Nazi Germany, probably demilitarized and with German military presence on our soil. It would be far worse than what the Soviets orchestrated in 1968.

This is why practically all members of the Czech exile hoped for a big war which would lead to Germany's defeat. Even then they had to lobby hard to force Britain to declare the Munich treaty null and void.

I think what I like so much about this guy is that there was no motivation for this other than goodness. He didn't have to do it, he knew what a risk it was, he had no cadre of army officers supporting him with logistic, escape, etc, he was just a man who saw that action needed to be taken and took it. A true hero.

There was a plan to kill Hitler in Prague in 1939 too, I saw a documentary about it on Czech TV. The would-be attacked had a bomb prepared, but he decided not to use it when the car with Hitler was passing because he was afraid he might kill some innocent people around

 

[RedRalph]

I'm pretty sure the army would have taken over if this had succeeded, not other Nazis... and I'm pretty sure they would have still attacked the west

 

[Winner]

I'm pretty sure the army would have taken over if this had succeeded, not other Nazis... and I'm pretty sure they would have still attacked the west

It's nice that you're so sure, but the books I've read about WW2 said that the German army was pretty unwilling to go on offensive in the West. Most "moderate" Nazis were also opposed to it. After all, Hitler had told them that the West wouldn't move a finger against his invasion of Poland and the declarations of war thus came as a surprise to them.

Also, without Hilter, Manstein would have never succeeded in pushing his plan through the German military hierarchy, so even if Germany eventually decided to attack, it would have got stuck and no decisive victory would have been achieved.

As I said, the war might have been less bloody, but for Czechoslovakia, it would be a total disaster.

 

[RedRalph]

Winner, form the German POV it was either attack now, or sit here and decline in relative strength while the brits cross the channel and the French get more and more oganised, it would have been crazy to try and sit there and hold the line.

 

[Lord Baal]

on the first

Let's see that punk Harry Turtledove write that alternate history.

To the second: not quite true. One of the factors of his opposing Hitler was his horror at the Reichskristallnacht, so Hitler's domestic politics definitely played a part.

Contributing factor. But would those policies have made him attempt an assassination without the threat of war? Probably not.

Also, I fail to see why wanting to prevent a catastrophic war doesn't count as "goodness".

It's a vested interest, not "goodness." He didn't want his country to be devastated by a war. If it's a random bystander, it's goodness. Yourself? Not really, even if your goals are good.

Also, please remember that in 1939 the worst of Hitler's domestic policies (including the Holocaust, if you count that as 'domestic') were still in the future.

Um, yeah? What does that have to do with what I said?

the wiki article actually contradicts that, Elser was a communist and very much opposed to Hitler's domestic policies

As I said before, contributing factor. The article also states that his reason was the threat of war.

I'm pretty sure the army would have taken over if this had succeeded, not other Nazis... and I'm pretty sure they would have still attacked the west

Not bloody likely. The army even planned a coup for March 1939, but Britain refused to back them up. They certainly didn't want a war. They'd probably have even been willing to relinquish Poland and Czechoslovakia to avoid it.

Winner, form the German POV it was either attack now, or sit here and decline in relative strength while the brits cross the channel and the French get more and more oganised, it would have been crazy to try and sit there and hold the line.

You're confusing German thinking in WWI to their thinking in WWII. What would have been crazy would be continuing a war - which much of the High Command knew was unwinnable, including such ranking officers as General Beck and Admiral Canaris - when there was the option of overthrowing the Nazis and getting out of it. Hell, even Goering and other high-ranking Nazis didn't want a war, though they might have found it harder to repudiate their Fuhrer's actions without discrediting themselves and contributing to their own downfall.