Gerat Person Tech Preference for Bulbing

[Immaculate]

Is there a tech preference list for bulbing great people for FFH like the one Dave McW and friends made for BTS?

I.

EDIT:
Xienwolf comes to the rescue:

If you would be so kind as to copy this into the first post, I compiled the lists:

Spoiler Great Bard :

1. Drama
2. Festivals
3. Ancient Chants
4. Commune with Nature
5. Hidden Paths
6. Malevolent Designs
7. Message from the Deep
8. Mysticism
9. Poisons
10. Religious Law
11. Philosophy
12. Priesthood
13. Theology
14. Writing
15. Horseback Riding
16. Education
17. Astronomy
18. Bowyers
19. Deception
20. Divine Essence
21. Honor
22. Righteousness
23. Sorcery
24. Archery
25. Elementalism
26. Exploration
27. Feudalism
28. Fishing
29. Knowledge of the Ether
30. Masonry
31. Min Stapling
32. Omniscience
33. Sailing
34. Sanitation
35. Stirrups
36. Trade
37. Warhorses
38. Way of the Forests
39. Way of the Wise
40. Animal Husbandry
41. Bronze Working
42. Construction
43. Future Tech
44. Guilds
45. Hunting
46. Military Strategy
47. Smelting
48. Tracking
49. Warfare

Spoiler Great Engineer :

1. Archery
2. Bowyers
3. Crafting
4. Engineering
5. Machinery
6. Smelting
7. Code of Laws
8. Iron Working
9. Mining
10. Mithril Working
11. Way of the Earthmother
12. Cartography
13. Construction
14. Feudalism
15. Masonry
16. Blasting Powder
17. Bronze Working
18. Exploration
19. Guilds
20. Mithril Weapons
21. Warfare
22. Animal Husbandry
23. Arete
24. Trade
25. Agriculture
26. Calendar
27. Honor
28. Optics
29. Orders from Heaven
30. Priesthood
31. Rage
32. Strength of Will
33. Tracking
34. Armored Cavalry
35. Currency
36. Fishing
37. Mathematics
38. Medicine
39. Mercantilism
40. Military Strategy
41. Min Stapling
42. Philosophy
43. Precision
44. Stirrups
45. Taxation
46. Warhorses
47. Way of the Wicked
48. Future Tech
49. Horseback Riding
50. Hunting
51. Malevolent Designs
52. Righteousness
53. Sanitation

Spoiler Great Merchant :

1. Currency
2. Horseback Riding
3. Mathematics
4. Mercantilism
5. Stirrups
6. Taxation
7. Warhorses
8. Calendar
9. Code of Laws
10. Mining
11. Trade
12. Cartography
13. Exploration
14. Sailing
15. Way of the Wise
16. Agriculture
17. Deception
18. Festivals
19. Guilds
20. Machinery
21. Philosophy
22. Writing
23. Ancient Chants
24. Commune with Nature
25. Fishing
26. Future Tech
27. Hidden Paths
28. Honor
29. Malevolent Designs
30. Medicine
31. Message from the Deep
32. Mysticism
33. Poisons
34. Precision
35. Priesthood
36. Rage
37. Righteousness

Spoiler Great Prophet :

1. Arete
2. Corruption of Spirit
3. Infernal Pact
4. Malevolent Designs
5. Orders from Heaven
6. Philosophy
7. Priesthood
8. Religious Law
9. Righteousness
10. Theology
11. Way of the Earthmother
12. Way of the Forests
13. Ancient Chants
14. Commune with Nature
15. Fanaticism
16. Hidden Paths
17. Message from the Deep
18. Min Stapling
19. Mysticism
20. Divination
21. Way of the Wicked
22. Way of the Wise
23. Divine Essence
24. Elementalism
25. Writing
26. Calendar
27. Code of Laws
28. Drama
29. Education
30. Honor
31. Knowledge of the Ether
32. Sorcery
33. Animal Husbandry
34. Construction
35. Exploration
36. Future Tech
37. Masonry

Spoiler Great Sage :

1. Alteration
2. Arcane Lore
3. Divination
4. Elementalism
5. Knowledge of the Ether
6. Necromancy
7. Omniscience
8. Pass Through the Ether
9. Sorcery
10. Strength of Will
11. Corruption of Spirit
12. Infernal Pact

Note that Savants use the Great Prophet Tree and the Great Sage tree, so would need more details than I listed here to fully describe what his preferences are.

It could use some cleaning up still probably, like in the Sage tree I notice that a few of them are Pre-Reqs for the "preferred" tech, thus it is impossibile to get them in the order on the list.

EDIT: Actually I am testing now precisely how it is decided... It might be that it multiplies the Unit Flavor by the Tech Flavor, in which case you could bulb EVERY flavor on the unit. So a Sage ought to have falvor of 1 for each type, and flavor of 2 or 3 for Science (then he prefers to do his 12, but is capable of doing any of them).


EDIT 2: It does indeed allow you to bulb ANY TECH which matches ANY FLAVOR on the unit.

 

[xienwolf]

Many people have asked for one to be provided, none have assisted in forming one.

I am certain that if you started compiling a list of them yourself in this thread (edit your post to keep it as up to date as possible) you would get a great deal of assistance and eventually have it formed.

 

[Immaculate]

I don't think its possible to do by trial and error. I mean, which does a great sage value more, alteration or knowledge of the aether? I think DaveMcW compiled his list based on code (something i know nothing about but which others on this board know A LOT about).

Here's the link to the original thread.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952

 

[xienwolf]

I haven't seen anything in the code for the list yet, but I wasn't doing DLL work back then, so maybe it is written out nice and neat in here somewhere. When I am done with the current project I'll check around a bit.

Till then, here is what I got from a trial & error approach to compiling the Great Bards. It's just a first run through, giving myself a ton of them in the worldbuilder and having them discover techs until they will not do so anymore, then granting myself each tech I am able to research, and repeating the process.

EDIT: Looked over the other thread, there are some posts which speculate on how the order is decided, but none that state for certain precisely what it is. I'll look at the list again and test if it is actually just the order they are listed in the XML. Should that be the case it is quite a simple list to establish, as you just have to take a list like what I made earlier and sort it to match the XML layout.

 

[Immaculate]

Thanks Xien.

 

[xienwolf]

Ok, page 2 was more useful than page 1. It is quite simple to figure it all out now. If you have spare time you can easily do it before me since I am busy with some DLL code, but if you don't get it before I get bored I might have a whack at making the list myself.



Each Tech has a section called Flavors. This is a multiplier for the AI to decide the order in which it will research Techs, but it also controls the Bulbing List. The Higher the Flavor for the appropriate Type, the more it will want to Bulb that Tech if available. In the case of a tie, the first listed Tech is the one which wins.



So the easy way to do it would be to go through and mark what the flavors are for each Tech, then go through each flavor and sort them by how large the Flavor number is. But ensure that you maintain the order of the Technologies in the Tree as a whole while you are doing it.


EDIT: Got bored, trimmed the list for you. I don't know if Growth or Military match up with any of the Great People types, but I seriously doubt they do. Fields were left in just incase though.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'm still hoping that the lightbulbing ability will be changed so that you can choose the tech (Like when you build the Infernal Grimorie, but with a shorter list and not necessarily letting you discover any tech all at once)


Edit: What is a Gerat Person anyway?

 

[MaxAstro]

The main thing that needs to be changed, IMO, is the Great Sage bulbing preference. Currently, EVERY magic tech has a science flavor of 10. This means that Great Sages bulb available magic tech basically alphabetically, which leads to some very odd bulbing preferences: Alteration will be bulbed over any other magic tech, most of the "node" techs will be bulbed over sorcery, but arcane lore will be bulbed over the node techs, pass through the ether will be bulbed over strength of will but not over elementalism...

Really, the science flavor of magic techs should be tweaked so that higher-level techs have higher flavor and are preferred when bulbing.

Oh, and something might need to be done with Great Engineers and their flavor values so they don't have such an obsession with Bowyers...

 

[Mailbox]

Oh, and something might need to be done with Great Engineers and their flavor values so they don't have such an obsession with Bowyers...

Well, it is one of the prereqs for Engineering.

 

[MaxAstro]

Um, no, no it's not. I rush Engineering quite frequently, and I have never in my life researched Bowyers (I hate the archery tree with a passion). Speaking of which, Great Engineer will currently prefer to bulb Bowyers OVER Engineering, which makes them fairly useless for bulbing IMO.

 

[Ecofarm]

Um, no, no it's not. I rush Engineering quite frequently, and I have never in my life researched Bowyers (I hate the archery tree with a passion). Speaking of which, Great Engineer will currently prefer to bulb Bowyers OVER Engineering, which makes them fairly useless for bulbing IMO.

1) You need bowyers for machinery?

2) Imagine this: Bulb engineering, free engineer from engineering builds slums. Game over.

---

Sages = alteration, elementalism, divinination, (presumably the 4th), sorcery

That sucks.

Lightbulbing is pretty much dead. Who's done it since the sorcery change (except drama or alteration)? Maybe cheater-Luch engineers can, but otherwise might as well remove the icon.

 

[MaxAstro]

2) Imagine this: Bulb engineering, free engineer from engineering builds slums. Game over.

Yes, that would be a valid tactic. That's the entire point of bulbing; it's supposed to be a powerful effect. Actually, Engineering might be too expensive to one-shot bulb, also. *checks* Hm, I think it's right on the edge, not sure if it can be insta-bulbed or not.

(Oh, and the Slums are not Game Over; I'd generally use the Engineer for the Guild of Hammers instead, since the way I expand I rarely have a city that can support the slums usefully)

The point is, the way to make bulbing useful is to fix the flavor values so that more useful techs are more likely to be selected for bulbing. Currently, Great Sages are fine for bulbing Alteration and Arcane Lore, but basically worthless if you want to bulb Sorcery, Writing, or Strength of Will, which makes little sense.

Lightbulbing is pretty much dead. Who's done it since the sorcery change (except drama or alteration)? Maybe cheater-Luch engineers can, but otherwise might as well remove the icon.

Actually, I still bulb a fair bit; mainly Alteration and Arcane Lore. Removing a feature that can easily be fixed to be useful (seriously, the fix involves changing a few numbers in CIV4TechInfos.xml) doesn't seem the way to go.

 

[Immaculate]

^ agree.
The magic line would be nice to bulb from KoE, to Alteration, to Sorcery. It would reward growth of great sages nicely and provide a useful tool. I'm not sure if its over-powered or not though, but the trade off is less shrines, academies, etc, which i think is fair (just like in regular CIV).

 

[xienwolf]

There has to be more to it than just the flavors alone. Or Sages are tied to something other than Science. If not, there are 12 Techs which a Sage can Bulb. That's just wrong.

 

[MaxAstro]

No, that's about right. Mysticism, KotE, the four node techs, Sorcery, Arcane Lore, SoW, PttE, and I assume Omnisience and maybe Writing (or is it Corruption of Sprit?). Those are the only techs I've ever seen Sages get the options for bulbing. and every one of those techs has a flavor value of 10, meaning sages will always bulb available magic techs in alphabetical order. >.<

 

[xienwolf]

Yeah, I tested it and indeed, a Sage -- The master of all Research -- Can only Bulb 12 Techs. Meanwhile a Bard can do 49 and an Engineer 53 (out of a possible 86, not counting NEVER and SEAFARING)

 

[MagisterCultuum]

How hard would it be to change bulbing to work like free techs from a wonder/tech, but giving you a smaller list to choose from and not necessarily all the research towards the tech?

 

[xienwolf]

If you would be so kind as to copy this into the first post, I compiled the lists:

Spoiler Great Bard :

1. Drama
2. Festivals
3. Ancient Chants
4. Commune with Nature
5. Hidden Paths
6. Malevolent Designs
7. Message from the Deep
8. Mysticism
9. Poisons
10. Religious Law
11. Philosophy
12. Priesthood
13. Theology
14. Writing
15. Horseback Riding
16. Education
17. Astronomy
18. Bowyers
19. Deception
20. Divine Essence
21. Honor
22. Righteousness
23. Sorcery
24. Archery
25. Elementalism
26. Exploration
27. Feudalism
28. Fishing
29. Knowledge of the Ether
30. Masonry
31. Min Stapling
32. Omniscience
33. Sailing
34. Sanitation
35. Stirrups
36. Trade
37. Warhorses
38. Way of the Forests
39. Way of the Wise
40. Animal Husbandry
41. Bronze Working
42. Construction
43. Future Tech
44. Guilds
45. Hunting
46. Military Strategy
47. Smelting
48. Tracking
49. Warfare

Spoiler Great Engineer :

1. Archery
2. Bowyers
3. Crafting
4. Engineering
5. Machinery
6. Smelting
7. Code of Laws
8. Iron Working
9. Mining
10. Mithril Working
11. Way of the Earthmother
12. Cartography
13. Construction
14. Feudalism
15. Masonry
16. Blasting Powder
17. Bronze Working
18. Exploration
19. Guilds
20. Mithril Weapons
21. Warfare
22. Animal Husbandry
23. Arete
24. Trade
25. Agriculture
26. Calendar
27. Honor
28. Optics
29. Orders from Heaven
30. Priesthood
31. Rage
32. Strength of Will
33. Tracking
34. Armored Cavalry
35. Currency
36. Fishing
37. Mathematics
38. Medicine
39. Mercantilism
40. Military Strategy
41. Min Stapling
42. Philosophy
43. Precision
44. Stirrups
45. Taxation
46. Warhorses
47. Way of the Wicked
48. Future Tech
49. Horseback Riding
50. Hunting
51. Malevolent Designs
52. Righteousness
53. Sanitation

Spoiler Great Merchant :

1. Currency
2. Horseback Riding
3. Mathematics
4. Mercantilism
5. Stirrups
6. Taxation
7. Warhorses
8. Calendar
9. Code of Laws
10. Mining
11. Trade
12. Cartography
13. Exploration
14. Sailing
15. Way of the Wise
16. Agriculture
17. Deception
18. Festivals
19. Guilds
20. Machinery
21. Philosophy
22. Writing
23. Ancient Chants
24. Commune with Nature
25. Fishing
26. Future Tech
27. Hidden Paths
28. Honor
29. Malevolent Designs
30. Medicine
31. Message from the Deep
32. Mysticism
33. Poisons
34. Precision
35. Priesthood
36. Rage
37. Righteousness

Spoiler Great Prophet :

1. Arete
2. Corruption of Spirit
3. Infernal Pact
4. Malevolent Designs
5. Orders from Heaven
6. Philosophy
7. Priesthood
8. Religious Law
9. Righteousness
10. Theology
11. Way of the Earthmother
12. Way of the Forests
13. Ancient Chants
14. Commune with Nature
15. Fanaticism
16. Hidden Paths
17. Message from the Deep
18. Min Stapling
19. Mysticism
20. Divination
21. Way of the Wicked
22. Way of the Wise
23. Divine Essence
24. Elementalism
25. Writing
26. Calendar
27. Code of Laws
28. Drama
29. Education
30. Honor
31. Knowledge of the Ether
32. Sorcery
33. Animal Husbandry
34. Construction
35. Exploration
36. Future Tech
37. Masonry

Spoiler Great Sage :

1. Alteration
2. Arcane Lore
3. Divination
4. Elementalism
5. Knowledge of the Ether
6. Necromancy
7. Omniscience
8. Pass Through the Ether
9. Sorcery
10. Strength of Will
11. Corruption of Spirit
12. Infernal Pact

Note that Savants use the Great Prophet Tree and the Great Sage tree, so would need more details than I listed here to fully describe what his preferences are.

It could use some cleaning up still probably, like in the Sage tree I notice that a few of them are Pre-Reqs for the "preferred" tech, thus it is impossibile to get them in the order on the list.

EDIT: Actually I am testing now precisely how it is decided... It might be that it multiplies the Unit Flavor by the Tech Flavor, in which case you could bulb EVERY flavor on the unit. So a Sage ought to have falvor of 1 for each type, and flavor of 2 or 3 for Science (then he prefers to do his 12, but is capable of doing any of them).


EDIT 2: It does indeed allow you to bulb ANY TECH which matches ANY FLAVOR on the unit.