German Landsknecht rush

Resident Mario

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I'm wondering whether this is, possibly, a viable strategy.

If you RA-block Civil Service early, you can get out Landsknecht at the same time everyone gets out Swordsmen. In that case, your double cheap Landsknecht can deploy faster then Swordsmen, and don't have to worry about Horses.

Of course, the situation reverses once you hit Longswords...
 
I think that, quite the opposite, this would be hardest to do in MP, because other players are smart enough to immediately rush to Longswords while you build up your Pike force...
 
I think that, quite the opposite, this would be hardest to do in MP, because other players are smart enough to immediately rush to Longswords while you build up your Pike force...

This. But if you can block iron before, well yes it's a viable strategy.
 
I think the closest thing I've heard to a Landsknecht rush is mass upgrading after a Rifling slingshot. I'm not sure of how competitive it is, given that you pay more gold to upgrade from Landsknecht to rifleman than you'd pay for upgrading a normal pikeman, but I've heard tell that it's at least doable, if not optimal.

I'd think the same is true of just straight Landsknecht rush; you can pull if off, but there are probably better things you can do with your beakers and hammers.
 
I wish there was a strategy article up for each UU. There was, pretty much, for Civ 4...we need to test things out and get the ball rolling, I guess. Obviously the from-scratch UUs, like the Janissary, Sipahis, Musketeers, Minutemen, Zeros, B17, etc. are going to be the hardest to use...

Either way, Bismark always always always mass produces them pikes, which I steamroll with Longswords. I just wonder if it's viable in any way to do so.

Also, seems really weird that such elite mercenaries are backwash Pikemen in this game. :confused: Honestly, it would make more sense if they were 22 strength Longswords or something; the AoE III interpretation of their being heavy infantry was FAR more accurate.

EDIT: That would be a good mod wouldn't it =)
 
Well there were a wide range of Landsknechts, but most of them used pikes. Then again, it is a pretty broad term.

I do agree, though, that nothing really makes sense about Landsknechts. Why are they cheaper than, and have the same stats as, normal pikes, when they were well-trained and well-equipped compared to most pikemen, which were often just peasants with minor drilling? Why are they a German UU when they were employed across Europe? Why do they use halberds? And given that, why is their icon a zweihander? The mind boggles!
 
Well, the problem might be that their base unit, Pikemen, are a bit too weak.

I don't remember very many Rennaissance battles where Landsknechts (or their historical sister-unit, Swiss Halbardiers) got pwned by anybody. Edit2: except each other. :)

Edit: and yes, Virginia, they were dominantly armed with pole arms of various sorts.
 
Can be done easily and effectively on Emperor. Done it myself.

easier to Meritocracy GL to Civil Service. Watch out for maintenance costs though.
 
Well, the problem might be that their base unit, Pikemen, are a bit too weak.

I don't remember very many Rennaissance battles where Landsknechts (or their historical sister-unit, Swiss Halbardiers) got pwned by anybody. Edit2: except each other. :)

What if they bumped Pike strength to 12-14, and on top of that, instead of halving the hammer cost of Landsknechts, gave them a free promo? Could be too much like Samurai, but it would probably be better balanced and make a lot more sense.
 
I might try this next game...
If it stops ctd-ing
 
This is really exciting, Germany sort of having a sort of Zerg rush?, I thought someone mentioned that regular spearman could be upgraded for cheap into Landschenketefhts (LS from now on?), could this work better?
 
I'm wondering whether this is, possibly, a viable strategy.

If you RA-block Civil Service early, you can get out Landsknecht at the same time everyone gets out Swordsmen. In that case, your double cheap Landsknecht can deploy faster then Swordsmen, and don't have to worry about Horses.

Of course, the situation reverses once you hit Longswords...

Nah! The Gemans in my game tried this, but within a short time, I smoked em with my berserkers!
 
there was talk of it working when the game first came out but I dont know how well it would work now.
 
What if they bumped Pike strength to 12-14, and on top of that, instead of halving the hammer cost of Landsknechts, gave them a free promo? Could be too much like Samurai, but it would probably be better balanced and make a lot more sense.

if you make pikes even stronger noone could hold their ground vs a well played "attack" (not rush) with mass landsknechts.

2 landsknechts beat yet a longsword but cost only the half! (your job to get the eco to mantain bigger armies)

I'm wondering whether this is, possibly, a viable strategy.

If you RA-block Civil Service early, you can get out Landsknecht at the same time everyone gets out Swordsmen. In that case, your double cheap Landsknecht can deploy faster then Swordsmen, and don't have to worry about Horses.

Of course, the situation reverses once you hit Longswords...

prepatch landsknecht rush was viable with great lib slingshot. postpatch forget it. the lib is to expensive if you dont the have production (which will not have if you want to RUSH)

and later one landsknecht ONLY cant do much. either u need catapults early on, or better a mixed army of hard hitters and mass landsknechts as meatshield which i dont call a rush.
 
a straight landsknect rush can be done by turn (quick)33. it will then be fighting regular swordsmen. cost 33 (50) vs cost 56 (80).
pretty devastating with a river start, with either hills or plains.

truble is a pure swordrush can be done faster!
Also locks you into a set opening.
 
It works but depends alot on the map.

It's not so usefull if your opponents have Iron but if you don't have Iron it can certainly be potent.

Most important factor is the terrain though. With the landsknecht you will easily have a numeric advantage. But this is only really usefull if there is open terrain. Any chokepoints take away your advantage. Too much hills/forests makes your army too slow.

Then again, if there's alot of open terrain it's so easy to just swarm your opponents.
 
if you make pikes even stronger noone could hold their ground vs a well played "attack" (not rush) with mass landsknechts.

Hence why I said "instead of halving the hammer cost..."

2 landsknechts beat yet a longsword but cost only the half! (your job to get the eco to mantain bigger armies)

2 Landsknechts cost 100 hammers. 1 Longsword costs 150 hammers. 100 is not half of 150. And saying it's "your job to get the eco" is fallacious; if you have the eco to support double the units, why not use it to support half the units, but make them good units, and have money left over for your buildings, city-states, rush-buys, and research agreements? Implying that you can field an equivalent hammer cost of landsknechts to longswords and just "get the eco" is outlandish.

On top of that, I'm not so sure 2 landsknechts beat one longsword. Yeah, it's two units with strength 10, but that doesn't mean that they're the same as one unit with strength of 20. If you have math or examples (with promotion/great general/terrain parity), I'd be happy to hear it though, since I'm not sure on that. Really though, there's way too many confounding factors to do a straight-up hammer-per-strength equation like that and draw a conclusion of "A of unit B beats X of Y." I'd be willing to say that at a 1-to-3 ratio (hammer parity) they'd probably pull it off, but to get all three to deal damage to the LS, they're all attacking into it, meaning there's a good chance of fortification and terrain disadvantage. Plus, when you have weak units, you're much more likely to get one picked off, which then you obviously can't use again, whereas stronger units are more likely to survive to either 1) fortify until healed (or just get back the 1 or 2 hitpoints before being attacked again) 2) get to a city to heal or 3) insta-heal. This is especially true when you take ranged units/city bombardment into account.

Then of course there's the maintenance aspect, which we already covered, and the fact that with 1UPT, congestion is a huge issue - sure, you have 30 strength between your three Landsknechts vs the 18 on the Longsword (and of course I've already pointed out how that equivocation is flawed), but once you have five Longswords vs. 15 Landsknechts, well, good luck getting all of those guys attacking per turn. Good luck getting more than five attacking per turn, in fact. And then there's the fact that, as you said, your siege (very important) is going to be delayed, as is your finding iron to make the siege, on account of you going down a completely unrelated tech path. And the amount of experience you're giving your enemy by letting them rack up the kills, which they can then use to get an even greater strength advantage, or just insta-heal and go back to the beatdown.

Anyways, point is your premise of "Landsknechts have more strength per hammer than Longswords, and therefore are superior" doesn't really hold water. I'll say again that they can be a useful unit, but they're nothing great, and just one more piece of the mediocre tapestry that is Civ V Germany. And in a game where no civ is really hands down bad, being mediocre is not a good thing.
 
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