Germany Video

[historix69]

U-Boats versus Battleships (WW2)

The german Bismarck-class-battleship had a weight of ca. 50.000 t, while the famous u-boat type VII had a weight of 600-1.000 t, so for one battleship you could get around 50-75 u-boats.
The german Panzer V, one of the best tank types in WW2, had a weight of 45 t.
So one can make a rough estimate via resource costs :

1 battleship = 50 u-boats = 1.000 tanks

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Germany is only a land power due to geography, civ VI may force Germany to become a naval power.

Germany used submarines to great success in both world wars and maybe built more submarines then the rest of the world combined so the U-boat is a good modern unique unit choice.

While Germany was famous for their tank use in ww2 it is worth to mention that Germany only built 20 tanks in total during ww1 while UK and France combined built several thousends of tanks and that before Germany.

 

[Ulthwithian]

I do find it somewhat amusing that people are complaining about anachronisms in Germany's leader portrait (somewhat justified on the evidence) and also the UU, while citing a bad example in the latter with Japan's Samurai.

The iconic samurai in Western eyes (and perhaps even Japanese, but I do not know this) is the samurai of the Sengoku Jidai period from the late 1400s to 1600 or so. This is the 'infantry' samurai depicted by Kurosawa films (mostly) and, well, Oda Nobunaga in CiV.

Most historians believe that the samurai associated with the Kamakura shogunate (i.e., Hojo Tokimune's time period) was quite different. Most importantly, he would have been mounted, and specialized in archery at least as much as the katana.

 

[historix69]

Germany is only a land power due to geography, civ VI may force Germany to become a naval power.

Germany used submarines to great success in both world wars and maybe built more submarines then the rest of the world combined so the U-boat is a good modern unique unit choice.

In Civ games a lot depends on geographie. You need a water map and coastal position to use naval units.

Submarines in WW1 / WW2 were used to snipe on big warships and sink mostly merchant ships and so interrupting trade routes. If a nation has its own continent and is selfsufficient, naval trade routes are less important. If a nation relied on naval trade/transport, it usually had thousands of merchant vessels but only hundreds of warships to guard them. Submarines were rather cheap to build so it was not too expensive to patrol large areas with dozens of ships.

In Civ5 a submarine cost 325 while a battleship cost 375. Both traveled with 5 Movement. The sub had combat 35 / range 2 while the battleship had combat 55 / range 3. A realistic relation between sub/bb-costs might be 5 groups of subs (a 10 ships) for 1 battleship, so a sub-group should have costed around 75 production instead of 325. The same would apply to upkeep costs.

If Civ 6 is not simulating naval trade / transport of resources or realistic production costs to a certain degree, the U-Boat might be meaningless.

While Germany was famous for their tank use in ww2 it is worth to mention that Germany only built 20 tanks in total during ww1 while UK and France combined built several thousends of tanks and that before Germany.

That is true. WW1 tanks and WW2 tanks are hardly to compare. Most WW1 tanks travelled at infantery speed and broke down after a few km. At the eastern front or in difficult terrain they were useless. Also Germany was mostly fighting a defensive war in the west after early success in 1914 until Russia quit the war. Maybe that's one of the reasons why tanks in WW1 had less priority for Germany. Another one might be general exhaustion of all types of resources on German side near the end of the war, while the French, British and US had virtually unlimited resources. Germans used artillery, mortar and Anti-Tank-Rifles to penetratet the rather thin armour of most WW1 tanks.

The Germans were also able to acquire some tanks from the british ...

Spoiler :

 

[Scaramanga]

Germany is only a land power due to geography, civ VI may force Germany to become a naval power.

Germany used submarines to great success in both world wars and maybe built more submarines then the rest of the world combined so the U-boat is a good modern unique unit choice.

While Germany was famous for their tank use in ww2 it is worth to mention that Germany only built 20 tanks in total during ww1 while UK and France combined built several thousends of tanks and that before Germany.

Personally I wouldn't focus on navy with Barbarossa just because of the naval UU. I see it as a way to catch up to naval powers that are already in place; an ace in the hole against civs like England.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Personally I wouldn't focus on navy with Barbarossa just because of the naval UU. I see it as a way to catch up to naval powers that are already in place; an ace in the hole against civs like England.

Precisely. Which is also a bit historical considering that Germany had to play catch up to England's navy and used u-boats as an equalizer.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

And speaking of u-boats, there needs to be a "wolf pack" promotion that grants +1 combat strength for each adjacent sub. Make it happen Firaxis!

 

[DemonMaster]

A submarine is a defensive naval unit so it fits perfectly for a "land" civ.

Although the concept of "land" civ is a little bit off due that the game is build around random maps.

 

[GauntZero]

they also should be great to attack naval trade routes....with being cheap you can patrol a large area with them

 

[Depravo]

By the time Germany is able to build U-Boats, they have had at least 3/4 of the game to seize a coastal city or two, no matter how far from the coast they started.

I could understand if it was an ancient era unit but it isn't.

 

[Scaramanga]

Precisely. Which is also a bit historical considering that Germany had to play catch up to England's navy and used u-boats as an equalizer.

Ok, yes, it is a bit historical although at first it seems from left field.

In agreement, a submarine is not ideal for setting up an oceanic empire, tearing them down yes. They have no surface weapons, they are weak on the coast; even Brazil's UU and Japan's entire navy could stand up to it if they stick to the coasts. The U-boat clearly has a predatory function and is aimed at throwing down the gauntlet at civs like England.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Well if submarines is cost effective against all other ships then you can use them to win naval superiority and then build stuff such as battleship for the invasion.

 

[tedhebert]

A submarine is a defensive naval unit so it fits perfectly for a "land" civ.

Although the concept of "land" civ is a little bit off due that the game is build around random maps.

I have to disagree here !

Subs don't come to my mind as defensive units. Germans used subs all around the world in WWII as offensive units, taking down all they could, and as spy tools, being where no one thought they could get and gathering information.

 

[Scaramanga]

Well if submarines is cost effective against all other ships then you can use them to win naval superiority and then build stuff such as battleship for the invasion.

Somehow I don't think subs will be the end-all and be-all of navy supremacy. They can probably be spotted by planes and other ships.

 

[DeutschDachs]

Well now that I think about it, they have Egyptian swordsmen with Khopesh... is it outside the realm of possibility to hope that the German knight is dressed in Teutonic garb??

 

[DemonMaster]

I have to disagree here !

Subs don't come to my mind as defensive units. Germans used subs all around the world in WWII as offensive units, taking down all they could, and as spy tools, being where no one thought they could get and gathering information.

The purpose for a navy is the key. To have a navy is not a purpose in itself it is what you can do with it that counts. Carrier groups, battleship groups can attack land and sea targets while u-boats can only attack sea targets (assuming atomic era unit without any missile capacity). This makes submarine a defensive unit. An outer perimeter unit but still with a main purpose to sink enemy ships not to provide naval support for your amphibious assault. I would have liked to say support unit, but since Civ 6 has something called support units, that term can't be used.

 

[Siptah]

Well now that I think about it, they have Egyptian swordsmen with Khopesh... is it outside the realm of possibility to hope that the German knight is dressed in Teutonic garb??

I believe the graphics are the same for some civs. Germany and France for example share the same city center look and Brazil's buildings are the same as the Aztecs' IIRC. The mid-eastern civs might all have the Khopesh swordsmen and all european knights will look the same. So they all got the cross or none I think. Will Kongo look unique?

 

[historix69]

I have to disagree here !

Subs don't come to my mind as defensive units. Germans used subs all around the world in WWII as offensive units, taking down all they could, and as spy tools, being where no one thought they could get and gathering information.

Submarines were in 1st case a tool for a naval blockade in WW1/2 to slow down the enemy's economy/war machine, including sinking supply and troop transports. Germans international trade was blockaded by the British Fleet in both wars and they tried to do the same to the British. (In 1915 the Germans declared the waters around Great Britain to be a war zone for submarine warfare, but neutral countries simply ignored the declaration and kept sending ships into the war zone which resulted in avoidable civilian casualties.) In neutral countries like USA the british surface naval blockades had a less moral impact then the german submarine blockades, even when the first caused a lot more indirect casualties in WW1. Continued British naval blockade caused a famine in Germany resulting in estimated 400.000-700.000 civilian deaths in 1918/19. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_Germany)


Offensive usage of subs against huge fleets was probably difficult since naval bases were usually well protected by mine fields, obstacles and destroyer patrols. The speed of surface ships (10-36 kn ?) exceeded the speed of submarines (5-20 kn), so the subs had to ambush their enemies or could only strike against slow vessels. When in Civ5 a WW2 battleship has 5 Movement, a WW2 submarine probably should have 2-3 Movement (2 under water) to be realistic.

 

[DeutschDachs]

I believe the graphics are the same for some civs. Germany and France for example share the same city center look and Brazil's buildings are the same as the Aztecs' IIRC. The mid-eastern civs might all have the Khopesh swordsmen and all european knights will look the same. So they all got the cross or none I think. Will Kongo look unique?

Blah that Khopesh swordsman really has my hopes up. If all the European Civs have the cross that'd be good enough for me although I'd worry they'd avoid it since it would conflict with if you were playing Buddhist England or something. It'd be really nice if they could give individual Civs special designs like still giving Germany panzer and Teutonic knights despite no stat differences. I guess that's asking an awful lot though

 

[Siptah]

Blah that Khopesh swordsman really has my hopes up. If all the European Civs have the cross that'd be good enough for me although I'd worry they'd avoid it since it would conflict with if you were playing Buddhist England or something. It'd be really nice if they could give individual Civs special designs like still giving Germany panzer and Teutonic knights despite no stat differences. I guess that's asking an awful lot though

Yes, it would be an incredible workload. While it would be awesome for some units/civs, I fear that it would also reduce the easy readability of what you see on the map.