[NFP] Getting a Pantheon with Russia, test game

[Melliores]

As the old thread created by @Rotomagus was eventually closed by a moderator, I decided to run a test game to show that it is feasible getting a Pantheon first with Russia and showing that the AI does not use any extra cheats or scripts on Prince level.

Game settings :

Map size: Standard
Map type : Continents
Climate : Cold
Rainfall : Wet
Difficulty : Prince
Leader and Civilization : Peter the Great of Russia

All other settings are set to default. I am only using UI mods and can post a save game and mods' list if needed.

I managed to get a Pantheon on turn 11 and I was aiming for turn 10 which I thought was the absolute maximum with Russia.

[img=Russia Pantheon]https://i.imgur.com/hgSk7Cn.jpg[/img]

Observations :
I managed to get 1 Goody hut and it gave me +1 Population which helped me shave off 2 turns from the 13 base limit (+2 Faith/turn with Russia). I only met Hunza as a City-state but if I have met a Religious one that would also have made the faith production to +3/turn.

What is also visible is that I met Gitarja and even though Indonesia has a religious focus she could not get going any Faith production within the first 10 turns. I suspect this is the case for most of the civs out there.

This was my very first test game and I did not do anything specific to boost Faith or Food production. The AI also does not cheat as seen with Gitarja which had no faith generation whatsoever.

Have you experienced any issues getting the first Pantheon with Russia ?

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

I feel as if this less of you experiencing issues getting a Pantheon as Russia and more of you flexing your analytical skills and Civ Fanaticism.

Jokes aside, that spawn is just... MWAH. Also, personally, I feel as if being one turn away from the minimum turns it takes to get a Pantheon as Russia isn't really an issue. I play Civilizations Expanded, so I don't really experience any difficulties. Sometimes I get a Pantheon at turn 3 from a particularly good Tribal Village.

 

[Rotomagus]

You didn't get it. Why doesn't anyone GET IT!? The AI needs to be close (next tile to city tile!) or IN Tundra!

 

[Vizurok]

@Rotomagus I started up 6 games as Russia using the above-mentioned settings. I was able to secure Dance of the Aurora in all of the games before T20, even in games where I moved 4-5 turns to get to tundra with my Settler. I have used the console to reveal the map after getting my pantheon, and apart from one game in which Eleanor had 21 faith, none of the AI civs were even close to getting a Pantheon. And, yes, I checked and there were AI civs starting in tundra in each game, but nothing magical happened to them in my games.

Conclusion: There might be an off chance for a civ to get lucky, score the 20 faith from a hut and grab Aurora (if they have a tundra start), but Russia with a tundra start should have absolutely no trouble with securing the Pantheon before T20 in the vast majority of the games.

I don't know what else can I do to you to convince you, here's a pair of screenshots from one of the games.

 

[Rotomagus]

well, from 3 cases it happened in three... but no matter, as soon as I have a few saves, I will post them here. As I am not farming saves though, this may take a while. Thanx for your efforts so far!

 

[intellectsucks]

well, from 3 cases it happened in three... but no matter, as soon as I have a few saves, I will post them here. As I am not farming saves though, this may take a while. Thanx for your efforts so far!

You're fighting a tough battle here. You're definitely not the only one who has seen weird things happen that would suggest that the AI is playing by a different rulebook than the player, however, getting Dance of the Aurora as Russia is usually very easy. I've played 4 games as Russia and was able to get it in all 4. Using Dance of the Aurora and Work Ethic is one of the most popular strategies to get insanely quick wins, even at Deity; if the AI routinely beat out the player at getting that combo, then how could that strategy be so popular?

Other players have definitely questioned whether or not the AI is able to do things that they player just can't. In one thread the OP referenced the AI building GDRs when he (or his team, I don't remember which) controlled all of the uranium. I recently played a game where I declared on Brazil in the ancient (maybe classical) era, and they were instantly able to upgrade two warriors to Swordsmen, despite having no Iron in their territory (I was able to conquer their whole territory so I verified that). MAYBE they were able to trade for it, but getting 40 iron from trade in the classical era or earlier? Fishy. Similarly, I find very often that you'll get your army in position around a city with low strength, declare war, then the next turn it doubles or triples. Perhaps there's a legit reason for it but the frequency and timing of such events sure do raise my eyebrows.

DESPITE the above, there are certainly tried and true strategies that allow victory at any difficulty level. I'm finding it enjoyable to learn those strategies and incorporate them into my game.

 

[Rotomagus]

now, guys... explain this ****.

 

[Aurelesk]

When you play as Russia, you tends to start in Tundra and have some Faith:

• Starting in Tundra means that other civilizations are less likely to start in it, so less likely to want Dance of the Aurora pantheon.
• Playing as Russia means that you can manage to have a Pantheon earlier, and securing the Pantheon you wants easier.

Of course: this is not infaillible. Playing on a bigger map or/and with the "cold" set up increase the odds of competiting civilizations to be next to tundra, and wanting to have Dance of the Aurora. More of this: playing a bigger map also increase the odds of civilization to start next to a religious City-State, grab a Relic from Tribal Village, start next to a Faith natural wonder, or have abilities that give Faith (like Indonesia).
There it is: when you combine both, the odds of securing Dance of the Aurora decrease.

We can't check the list of available Pantheon in your savfiles, just that you picked Earth Goddess. But my point stand: you played on a Huge map and I assume you took the Cold climate. This is bad luck. By restarting the game, I managed to get Pantheon of the Aurora at turn 18. Here a picture, and 2 savefiles from turn 1 and turn 18.

 

[Rotomagus]

this is all known. Question is, how did Indonesia do it in THIS case...

 

[Rotomagus]

When you play as Russia, you tends to start in Tundra and have some Faith:

• Starting in Tundra means that other civilizations are less likely to start in it, so less likely to want Dance of the Aurora pantheon.
• Playing as Russia means that you can manage to have a Pantheon earlier, and securing the Pantheon you wants easier.

Of course: this is not infaillible. Playing on a bigger map or/and with the "cold" set up increase the odds of competiting civilizations to be next to tundra, and wanting to have Dance of the Aurora. More of this: playing a bigger map also increase the odds of civilization to start next to a religious City-State, grab a Relic from Tribal Village, start next to a Faith natural wonder, or have abilities that give Faith (like Indonesia).
There it is: when you combine both, the odds of securing Dance of the Aurora decrease.

We can't check the list of available Pantheon in your savfiles, just that you picked Earth Goddess. But my point stand: you played on a Huge map and I assume you took the Cold climate. This is bad luck. By restarting the game, I managed to get Pantheon of the Aurora at turn 18. Here a picture, and 2 savefiles from turn 1 and turn 18.

I don't get it, really. You REstarted on another map? That is not the point, as I said here repeatedly.

This in not BAD LUCK, this is scripted. If it was for luck, I could restart on the SAME map and get different results. But again, this is NOT the case.
The save also shows, Indonesia gets the necc. Faith in exactly the same round as I do, but get's to chose before me. Also, this 'exact same round' thing seems to be the case everytime that happens.

Try these (base save and turn before Indonesia gets to chose; you can see in the world builder, that in the round I chose, she doesn't even have the Parthenon icon on her city):

 

[intellectsucks]

I don't get it, really. You REstarted on another map? That is not the point, as I said here repeatedly.

This in not BAD LUCK, this is scripted. If it was for luck, I could restart on the SAME map and get different results. But again, this is NOT the case.
The save also shows, Indonesia gets the necc. Faith in exactly the same round as I do, but get's to chose before me. Also, this 'exact same round' thing seems to be the case everytime that happens.

Try these (base save and turn before Indonesia gets to chose; you can see in the world builder, that in the round I chose, she doesn't even have the Parthenon icon on her city):

I haven't tried your map yet, so I can't say with certainty but I suspect that Aurelesk's explanation is what happened, your settings made your odds of getting your preferred pantheon much worse than normal. Are these the usual settings you use when creating games? Maybe this is why you're running into problems so often.

I ran my own test to see if your claim that getting Dance of the Aurora was difficult held water. I started ten games as Russia, prince difficulty, continents maps, no extra game modes, everything else default settings. I was able to get Dance of the Aurora in all ten games, even one where I started nowhere near tundra and had to build a Lavra in order to get a pantheon.

I'm unsure why you're so fixated on this. Are you claiming that it is difficult to get Dance of the Aurora or are you claiming that the AI occasionally beats you to it when they shouldn't and you find that super frustrating? If you're claiming that it's difficult to get Dance of the Aurora then either it's the settings you're playing with or you're just flat out wrong, as myself and multiple other posters have pointed out. If you're claiming that the AI occasionally beats you to your pantheon....oh well?

I posted all of my save files for you to look at if you want (I'll have to do them in 2 batches since you can only load 10 files at once)

 

[intellectsucks]

The second half of my saves...

 

[intellectsucks]

I don't get it, really. You REstarted on another map? That is not the point, as I said here repeatedly.

This in not BAD LUCK, this is scripted. If it was for luck, I could restart on the SAME map and get different results. But again, this is NOT the case.
The save also shows, Indonesia gets the necc. Faith in exactly the same round as I do, but get's to chose before me. Also, this 'exact same round' thing seems to be the case everytime that happens.

Try these (base save and turn before Indonesia gets to chose; you can see in the world builder, that in the round I chose, she doesn't even have the Parthenon icon on her city):

Sorry dude, but I just played your map from turn 1 and was able to get Dance of the Aurora on my first try, turn 20. My faith generation definitely lagged as well, since I had no idea zombie mode was active and they swarmed my cap, keeping my pop at 1 for a bunch of turns until I could get a warrior out. That save file is attached. No scripting, restarted the SAME map and got different results.

 

[Rotomagus]

... the sripting depends on what you do...

did you plant your first city exactly where I did in exactly the turn I did? I tried this several times, outcome the same.

If I do things differently, the outcome is different. On the same Map. Yes, also pantheons.

So, as someone explained in the original thread, the game reacts in certain scripted, cheaty ways, based on what the Player does. And THAT, my friend, is the issue at hand.

Btw, of course Zombies are on. Best Mode ever for me

 

[intellectsucks]

... the sripting depends on what you do...

did you plant your first city exactly where I did in exactly the turn I did? I tried this several times, outcome the same.

If I do things differently, the outcome is different. On the same Map. Yes, also pantheons.

So, as someone explained in the original thread, the game reacts in certain scripted, cheaty ways, based on what the Player does. And THAT, my friend, is the issue at hand.

Btw, of course Zombies are on. Best Mode ever for me

OK, now I understand, you're trying to show proof that the AI reacts and does things in ways that they shouldn't be able to. I'm still not sure why you're hung up on this though. I mean, yeah it's frustrating that your actions influence the AI when they shouldn't, but it's not as if that makes the AI anywhere close to unbeatable. With even moderate skill you can overcome those things even on the highest difficulty settings. A bunch of my saves are pretty crappy starts and yet I'm still confident I could pull a win out of them, especially on Prince. On the rare times that the AI is able to beat you to the pantheon that you want, then you can either go back a few turns and play differently, re-roll the map, or power through the game using a different strategy.

 

[Rotomagus]

OK, now I understand, you're trying to show proof that the AI reacts and does things in ways that they shouldn't be able to. I'm still not sure why you're hung up on this though. I mean, yeah it's frustrating that your actions influence the AI when they shouldn't, but it's not as if that makes the AI anywhere close to unbeatable. With even moderate skill you can overcome those things even on the highest difficulty settings. A bunch of my saves are pretty crappy starts and yet I'm still confident I could pull a win out of them, especially on Prince. On the rare times that the AI is able to beat you to the pantheon that you want, then you can either go back a few turns and play differently, re-roll the map, or power through the game using a different strategy.

All correct, but still unacceptable.

And maybe you will understand then: I do not play this game to 'win'. I more or less ROLEPLAY this game. I think many people do. But ok, the map in question is still fascinating, so I will try something different this time.

Still, I appreciate the help of everyone involved in this so far.

 

[PiR]

OK, now I understand, you're trying to show proof that the AI reacts and does things in ways that they shouldn't be able to. I'm still not sure why you're hung up on this though. I mean, yeah it's frustrating that your actions influence the AI when they shouldn't, but it's not as if that makes the AI anywhere close to unbeatable. With even moderate skill you can overcome those things even on the highest difficulty settings.

Well, if someone proves that, I would be annoyed as well. I like to know the rules of the game I'm playing.

Although, so far, it does not seem proven to me. I'm still wondering.

 

[Rotomagus]

Well, if someone proves that, I would be annoyed as well. I like to know the rules of the game I'm playing.

Although, so far, it does not seem proven to me. I'm still wondering.

then just test it. For example there is a pathing reg. goodie huts, which allows you to even plan out the 'yields'. Takes a little time, but is possible.

Since when is this scripting stuff in the game, I wonder...

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Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[PiR]

Empiric is not proof

 

[intellectsucks]

Well, if someone proves that, I would be annoyed as well. I like to know the rules of the game I'm playing.

Although, so far, it does not seem proven to me. I'm still wondering.

I'm not sure it's been proven, but I've experienced enough anecdotal evidence to believe it. Honestly it really doesn't bother me at all. I've recently been playing a lot of the original SNES Mario Kart on switch and I suddenly realized that the computer racers are not affected by a lot of the obstacles that the player is: specifically the Thwamps and blinking Thwamps. Video games have a long history of the computer playing by different rules, so it's neither surprising to me or bothersome. Just one more aspect of the game that needs to be overcome.