AngryZealot
King
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2007
- Messages
- 770
After trying to play a few games on Epic speed, I can't say I'm enjoying the mod much. Either I'm doing something wrong or the pacing is all wrong. Can someone recommend a speed/map/#civs to try out?
Getting into the groove
- Thread starter AngryZealot
- Start date
Zechnophobe
Strategy Lich
Normal or quick speed are infinitely more playable. The game is already designed to be slower than normal, so playing on epic would sound torturous.
Nikis-Knight
Deity
What he said. Try normal speed again to see how it plays, then marathon if it's still too fast for you. (I think marathon comes between normal and epic, yeah?)
If that doesn't work, there's always advanced start...
If that doesn't work, there's always advanced start...
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Nope, Marathon is the slowest speed.
I always use advanced start.
I always use advanced start.
Ecofarm
Deity
Quick speed. Period.
If you go to gamespy server right now (BTS) and look at the 15-40 games in progress and staging, every single one is quick speed. Every. Single. One.
MP ftw.
I played a normal speed standard size MP with 3-4 people and appropriate AIs. It took 12 hours. Never again. Quick takes 2-5 hours for 2-6 people and appropriate number of AIs.
Quick takes 3-6 hours in SP and that's enough for me. Some people like 30 hour games and that is fine, but unit movement is not scaled and so being aggressive on slow speeds is cheater; being defensive on slow speeds gives yourself a handicap - but I'd rather play deity than 30 hours for 1 game.
If you go to gamespy server right now (BTS) and look at the 15-40 games in progress and staging, every single one is quick speed. Every. Single. One.
MP ftw.
I played a normal speed standard size MP with 3-4 people and appropriate AIs. It took 12 hours. Never again. Quick takes 2-5 hours for 2-6 people and appropriate number of AIs.
Quick takes 3-6 hours in SP and that's enough for me. Some people like 30 hour games and that is fine, but unit movement is not scaled and so being aggressive on slow speeds is cheater; being defensive on slow speeds gives yourself a handicap - but I'd rather play deity than 30 hours for 1 game.
@Eco
Yeah, but that's MP... in MP you've got to move quickly, because you don't have the luxury of taking your time.
It's the same on Battlenet. When you play Starcraft single player, you can have it on normal speed and fart around a little. In multiplayer, every game is on the fastest speed, because you're playing with someone else, can't take breaks, and you want to get through as many games as possible.
Yeah, but that's MP... in MP you've got to move quickly, because you don't have the luxury of taking your time.
It's the same on Battlenet. When you play Starcraft single player, you can have it on normal speed and fart around a little. In multiplayer, every game is on the fastest speed, because you're playing with someone else, can't take breaks, and you want to get through as many games as possible.
Zechnophobe
Strategy Lich
Yeah, the late game balance of the game gets out of wack on Quick. You skip a lot of the mid game elements, because you proceed so fast.
Consider that healing rate isn't increased in a quick game, neither does movement speed. This makes 'war' feel like molasses compared to growth.
Consider that healing rate isn't increased in a quick game, neither does movement speed. This makes 'war' feel like molasses compared to growth.
das
Regeneration In Process
Well, I don't know. I enjoyed playing it on Epic, though I can see why some might consider that torture.
I think the mod is awesome, but I think it also [still] gets stabbed in the back by the late game slowness. I find the game bogs down in the end and becomes less fun.
But then I've always preferred the early game in all iterations of civ. Might be cause I like micro.
But then I've always preferred the early game in all iterations of civ. Might be cause I like micro.
onedreamer
Dragon
The main problem is that the mod is objectively not balanced to run on slow speeds. Wether or not you enjoy to play it is subjective though.
Blackmantle
King
Only that the game is also not balanced on / for quick speed. 
(even though that seems what a huge majority of the multiplayer community likes. And for some very valid reasons which are especially valid in competative multiplayer.
Perhaps one or the other cooperative multiplayer game at normal can be found if one really tries to get that one rolling and finds a like minded partner or 2. I for one don't much care for the number of games finished in a given time. But can well understand anyone who does.)
The Mod/ Game (depending on your preference of calling it.) is really balanced for normal speed.
(even though the AI is not really good (as in not good at all
, since nearly unworked at) leading to what ecofarm discribes as "cheater advantage" for the attacker. Im sure that will change when the AI is really done. So the problem is not with the speed really but rather AI ability as of now.)
Thats also the offical guidline stated more than once up until now. (and its understandable that the team wants to finish the features first and then if possible balance it for the different speeds. Prevents alot of redundant work in vain.)
Overall Epic, Normal and Quick seem more or less playable (mainly depending on tastes.).
Marathon is just a chore (and i really like long games with lots of minigames and things to do so i should like it. But even for me its just to boring. Even Epic is borderline at times.).
Also since each civ is designed differently they all have game speeds at which they excell more or less
(Try Sidar on Epic to see. There they are just nuts up to deity. They perhaps are the most extreme in terms of speed-dependancy (or rather slowness dependency.) since neither the ammount of combat nor XP-gain scales to speed as of now.) which is another reason to try normal where at least some kind of rough balance is tried.
Cottages are better at quick (due to much faster growth and build times.) farms seem quite hefty on epic and marathon (and near useless on Quick in comparison to cottages.).
So to completely answer which speed is good / best you have to say which civs you like and what strategy you like to use (slower is more interesting for builders quick rather for warmongers it seems. Normal caters to everyone more or less i reckon.).
I have heard once that in comparison to Vanilla, FFH 2 speeds are comparably one speed slower than their respective counterpart. Can't confirm that one firsthand (since i can't really remember my last vanilla game. Haven't played vanilla in ages.) but perhaps its a useful guidline for newcommers. (if it can be verified by someone who can compare on a first-hand-basis.)
Also if after those tips here you can't at all find yourself liking the mod as of now due to pace or balancing:
Consider shelving it for some time and get it if its really finished at ice phase (its still in beta even though its near the end) or at least all the main features are done (at the end of shadow phase 0.3x.) and more or less balanced. (perhaps around end of this year as a rought estimate.)
Else you may miss a real gem even by your standarts.
And if you want some real action (if that is what you miss) get yourselves the "explorable lairs and villages" modmod found here in this forum on the first page and perhaps soon the 0.32 Version of it in the "Modmods and Scenarios" subforum.
There you are sure to not be bored by slow pace even on Marathon (normal speed still recommended but for other reasons... Unless you really like losing with passion.).
Don't complain then about having your but handed though.
Minotaurs, Wraiths and Elementals knocking at the doorstep in the first 100 Turns can really ruin one's day.
That one will really teach you to value the Archery-Line (sadly the AI can't handle that one very well (as of now) so higher difficulties are highly reccomended. Unless you want the game to be over before Turn 150. One way or another.) and defense instead of single minded rushes.
(even though that seems what a huge majority of the multiplayer community likes. And for some very valid reasons which are especially valid in competative multiplayer. Perhaps one or the other cooperative multiplayer game at normal can be found if one really tries to get that one rolling and finds a like minded partner or 2. I for one don't much care for the number of games finished in a given time. But can well understand anyone who does.)
The Mod/ Game (depending on your preference of calling it.
) is really balanced for normal speed. (even though the AI is not really good (as in not good at all
, since nearly unworked at) leading to what ecofarm discribes as "cheater advantage" for the attacker. Im sure that will change when the AI is really done. So the problem is not with the speed really but rather AI ability as of now.)Thats also the offical guidline stated more than once up until now. (and its understandable that the team wants to finish the features first and then if possible balance it for the different speeds. Prevents alot of redundant work in vain.)
Overall Epic, Normal and Quick seem more or less playable (mainly depending on tastes.).
Marathon is just a chore (and i really like long games with lots of minigames and things to do so i should like it. But even for me its just to boring. Even Epic is borderline at times.).
Also since each civ is designed differently they all have game speeds at which they excell more or less
(Try Sidar on Epic to see. There they are just nuts up to deity. They perhaps are the most extreme in terms of speed-dependancy (or rather slowness dependency.
) since neither the ammount of combat nor XP-gain scales to speed as of now.) which is another reason to try normal where at least some kind of rough balance is tried.Cottages are better at quick (due to much faster growth and build times.) farms seem quite hefty on epic and marathon (and near useless on Quick in comparison to cottages.).
So to completely answer which speed is good / best you have to say which civs you like and what strategy you like to use (slower is more interesting for builders quick rather for warmongers it seems. Normal caters to everyone more or less i reckon.).
I have heard once that in comparison to Vanilla, FFH 2 speeds are comparably one speed slower than their respective counterpart. Can't confirm that one firsthand (since i can't really remember my last vanilla game. Haven't played vanilla in ages.) but perhaps its a useful guidline for newcommers. (if it can be verified by someone who can compare on a first-hand-basis.)
Also if after those tips here you can't at all find yourself liking the mod as of now due to pace or balancing:
Consider shelving it for some time and get it if its really finished at ice phase (its still in beta even though its near the end) or at least all the main features are done (at the end of shadow phase 0.3x.) and more or less balanced. (perhaps around end of this year as a rought estimate.)
Else you may miss a real gem even by your standarts.
And if you want some real action (if that is what you miss
) get yourselves the "explorable lairs and villages" modmod found here in this forum on the first page and perhaps soon the 0.32 Version of it in the "Modmods and Scenarios" subforum. There you are sure to not be bored by slow pace even on Marathon (normal speed still recommended but for other reasons... Unless you really like losing with passion.).
Don't complain then about having your but handed though.
Minotaurs, Wraiths and Elementals knocking at the doorstep in the first 100 Turns can really ruin one's day.
That one will really teach you to value the Archery-Line (sadly the AI can't handle that one very well (as of now) so higher difficulties are highly reccomended. Unless you want the game to be over before Turn 150. One way or another.) and defense instead of single minded rushes.
All elements that FfH introduced, such as Armageddon Counter, spell effects etc., they are all balanced for normal speed. Playing anything else could mean that certain spell is overpowered or that Armageddon comes too fast or too slow.
Besides, I would never play on quick. Never. It just takes away much from the game.
Besides, I would never play on quick. Never. It just takes away much from the game.
Nice rundown Blackmantle. Some other factors to consider:
Tech trading settings: No tech brokering will slow down game some depending largely on your diplomacy outreach and number of civs. No tech trading will significantly slow down relative game speed.
Larger maps tend to play better with slower game speeds. Playing on quick game speeds it is common to build an army and send it towards a target only to have it made obsolete by the time it arrives. This is true for vanilla Civ as well. Movement doesn't scale with game speed while tech rate does.
If you do play on Epic or Marathon speeds you may want to consider the new 'Slower XP' game option unless you like the feel of a few very experienced units crushing city after city. A human player can do this but an AI won't.
Another civ that is probably unbalanced on slower speeds is the Grigori. An early hero can generally bulldoze any nearby opposition given a couple dozen turns to level up.
------------------
I play SP almost exclusively on Epic. (Huge maps, lots of civs) Both for the 'epic' feel to it and because anything less and i find i'm not building many of the units as they are so quickly replaced by stronger stuff. I do a lot of game restarts on set up until i get a map that i think i'm going to like for the long haul and then really get into the roleplay of the game world and civ interaction. I have no problem with a game lasting for 20-30 hours stretched over a couple weeks. Yeah, i'm a geek among geeks.
I've played a little MP and i agree that in almost all cases it is necessary to play on Quick speed to finish a game although Quick Start, as mentioned, can help.
Tech trading settings: No tech brokering will slow down game some depending largely on your diplomacy outreach and number of civs. No tech trading will significantly slow down relative game speed.
Larger maps tend to play better with slower game speeds. Playing on quick game speeds it is common to build an army and send it towards a target only to have it made obsolete by the time it arrives. This is true for vanilla Civ as well. Movement doesn't scale with game speed while tech rate does.
If you do play on Epic or Marathon speeds you may want to consider the new 'Slower XP' game option unless you like the feel of a few very experienced units crushing city after city. A human player can do this but an AI won't.
Another civ that is probably unbalanced on slower speeds is the Grigori. An early hero can generally bulldoze any nearby opposition given a couple dozen turns to level up.
------------------
I play SP almost exclusively on Epic. (Huge maps, lots of civs) Both for the 'epic' feel to it and because anything less and i find i'm not building many of the units as they are so quickly replaced by stronger stuff. I do a lot of game restarts on set up until i get a map that i think i'm going to like for the long haul and then really get into the roleplay of the game world and civ interaction. I have no problem with a game lasting for 20-30 hours stretched over a couple weeks. Yeah, i'm a geek among geeks.
I've played a little MP and i agree that in almost all cases it is necessary to play on Quick speed to finish a game although Quick Start, as mentioned, can help.
Tech rate also scales with map size and difficulty.
The AI can get some very high experienced units from the early game animal rush. Probably slightly less now if their animal bonus was removed correctly.
Interesting. I hadn't realized map size effects tech rate. In what way does it scale? Larger maps slow tech rate?
I've seen some very experienced AI units. I didn't mean to imply the AI doesn't get them just that they are not going to use them nearly as effectively as an assault force backed by expendables going city to city conquering. They'll either stick them in a city or send them out in a vulnerable position, sometimes alone, to get sniped.
Ecofarm
Deity
I'm not interested in X games completed. I'm interested that the game I am currently playing, SP or MP, be completed. While there are a few people on hamachi you can count on being around for a game you decide to save and play later, often games "saved for later" are never continued. Therefor, it is best to finish the game you sit down to with a few people. There is no way you can finish a 3-4 player game at normal speed in under 10 hours. It's not that I need a high number of games - I just like to finish.
No, the problem is that unit movement is not scaled (while production is).The Mod/ Game (depending on your preference of calling it.
(even though the AI is not really good (as in not good at all
For example: In normal speed it takes, let's say, 4 turns to make a warrior and the invading army is 10 tiles away moving 2 tiles per turn. That gives you 5 turns and you can build 2 warriors before they arrive. Now, in quick speed, it takes only 2 turns to build a warrior and you can build 5 before they arrive. On epic speed, no warriors are built before the army arrives!
Fast speed is advantage to defender, whether AI or Human.
I agree. But instead of playing a slow speed to handicap myself in a builder game (slow speed advantage goes to attacker), I'd stay quick and up the difficulty and/or put aggressive AI.
Exactly... in multiplayer, that's a serious issue. In single player, it just isn't at all. So in MP, of course you'll go for the fastest speed, and that has nothing to do with fun or balance or anything.
