Gettysburg

[E-Raser]

Right now there's a movie about this battle in our TV. They presume this battle the key to the Civil war. If the south would have won, the war would also been won for the CSA. Let it be or not, I am curious about your opinion concerning what would the world look like if CSA would have survived until today. How would they have faced WW1 and WW2. What results do you presume would have happened?
Would they get allied with the north more or less or simply try to support any side against USA?

 

[Colonel]

The south would have reunified by 1880 if there was ever a peace, if there was no peace the war would have pushed in the NE and the south would have been pushed back by the induustrial power they have\had

the movie gettysburg is on thats a great movie

 

[The Ram]

The movie doesn't mention Stuart's and Custer's cavalry action (neither did The Killer Angel, the book it was based on). It doesn't mention Sickles moving out of place. It doesn't mention Lee's original plan of the third day was for Longstreet to continue attacking the Federal AOP's left flank while Ewell attack the left and Longstreet mistaken the order for marching to turn the Federal flank (neither does the book). And it was Sykes who told Chamberlain a job well done when the 20th Maine was moved to the centre of the ridge, not Hancock.

Other than the mentioned above. THE MOVIE WAS FANTASTIC. Guess what, it was this movie that turned me into a history of war freek go figure.

I think Lee should have listened to Longstreet and either retreated into the South Mountains for the ground (only mentioned in the book) or move to the right to find a defensible ground between the AOP and Washington.

Ewell lost the battle, not Lee. Quoting him "It took a great many mistakes to loose that battle. And I myself made most of them."

 

[Adler17]

If the CSA could have made peace with the North, after the recognization of France and Britian, history would have been altered dramatically. While Germany and Russia were supporting the US, France and Britain supported the CS. The development of two states on the terriory of the US would have also lead to shift of power in Europe. The US would come closer to Germany and Russia, while the CSA would come closer to France and Britain. Due to the partition the US would not have sought for colonies and so the war with Spain would never have occured. Also if ww1 broke out the US/ CS would very likely be involved- if they were still enemies. Canada and the South in America against the US, the Brits, French and Russian in Europe against Germany, Austria and the Ottomans.

Adler

 

[privatehudson]

I think Lee should have listened to Longstreet and either retreated into the South Mountains for the ground (only mentioned in the book) or move to the right to find a defensible ground between the AOP and Washington.

Ewell lost the battle, not Lee. Quoting him "It took a great many mistakes to loose that battle. And I myself made most of them."

I've always thought Ewell was hard done by in the post war analysis of the battle. Lee's order on the first day was very vague, and whilst it would suit Jackson or Longstreet, Ewell was unused to the order and the responsibility that it entailed. The debate on the "should he have taken the heights" will rage on forever, however IMO Ewell did have some rather solid reasons to believe the attempt would not suceed and not try. Though his performances on day 2 and 3 left a lot to be desired... then again so did Lee's

I'd personally blame a number of people and events, not one

 

[Arminius]

I very much agree with Adler. Although I have to say that conflict would have broken out between the North and South again before WWI. In fact, WWI may have started in America as early as the late 1880s depending on the stance that Mexico took after the War of Succession. (I can't resist renaming the war when speaking of Confederate victory: winners name wars.) Of course, all that relies on the European reaction to a new conflict across the pond.

 

[joycem10]

If the CSA could have made peace with the North, after the recognization of France and Britian, history would have been altered dramatically. While Germany and Russia were supporting the US, France and Britain supported the CS. The development of two states on the terriory of the US would have also lead to shift of power in Europe. The US would come closer to Germany and Russia, while the CSA would come closer to France and Britain. Due to the partition the US would not have sought for colonies and so the war with Spain would never have occured. Also if ww1 broke out the US/ CS would very likely be involved- if they were still enemies. Canada and the South in America against the US, the Brits, French and Russian in Europe against Germany, Austria and the Ottomans.

Adler

Sounds like Harry Turtledove.

 

[Serutan]

Right now there's a movie about this battle in our TV. They presume this battle the key to the Civil war.

It was the largest battle of the Civil war, but I don't
think it was the key battle. That one (and I should add
that it's debated whether a single battle was the key) was fought ~1700 kilometers away at a place called Champion's Hill in Mississippi. This sealed the doom
of Vicksburg, which split the CSA in two.

IMO the fall of Vicksburg would offset a defeat at
Gettysburg, especially since Lee would have not been
able to stay North much longer due to a shortage of
supplies, particularly ammo.

Another fact about Gettysburg that people seem to forget
is that the VI Corps was available as a reserve (it
never saw action in the actual battle), and could have
been used if Lee had made a breakthrough, although
that would not apply to the July 1 fighting.

On the subject of Ewell, he had the problem of going
from serving Jackson, who gave extremely detailed orders
that did not give any discretion at all, to Lee, who gave
very general orders that left much to discretion. Not IMO
an adjustment you make instantly, and Ewell had been in
his Gettysburg command for less than 2 months when
the battle started.

 

[privatehudson]

Also that the Union army could and probably should have used it's considerable remaining reserves to counter-attack Lee's forces on the third day after pickett's charge. That might have done some rather severe damage to Lee's cause and driven the army apart.

As for Gettysburg and Vicksburg, it's always been my opinion that a southern victory at Gettysburg would not have ended the war then and there. What it would have done would have been to damage Lincoln's position in the elections that were due. McCellan's stance in those elections was pretty much to end the war at almost any cost, and if Gettysburg had suceeded the frailty of the Union would have been exposed further and McCellan might have roused more support. Other than that, IMO Lee would have been unlikely to take Washington even after Gettysburg as the city was by then heavily fortified and the army of the potomac would have been unlikely to have been sufficiently destroyed at Gettysburg that it would be unable to hold the city or engage again before Washington.

Vicksburg was IMO a very important battle, however IMO the failiure of the south to win the battles in the east early in the war, before Union weight of supplies and men could be telling was the doom of the south.

 

[Serutan]

{...} however IMO the failiure of the south to win the battles in the east early in the war, before Union weight of supplies and men could be telling was the doom of the south.

I agree; the South pretty much had to win quickly (i.e.
early 1862 at the latest), or not at all. The quick victory
didn't happen, so...

 

[dgfred]

I agree; the South pretty much had to win quickly (i.e.
early 1862 at the latest), or not at all. The quick victory
didn't happen, so...

Right on you guys

 

[Benderino]

The CSA would have failed in some years time following the peace, since it's agricultural/slave based economy was insufficient in creating a sizeable world/regional power.

 

[dgfred]

Although I don't think the Confederates could have taken Washington, they
could have threatened it. Maybe they could have gotten some type of
peace initiated if they had a sword at Washington's throat . The bad and late decisions at Gettysburg, plus
the loss at Vicksburg were double blows the CSA could not recover from or
overcome.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Stephen Sears has published a great book on Gettysburg It is very thorough and well worth your time. The number of errors on both sides were incredible, but the courage and quick action in other cases saved the day. It is a facinating read.

 

[The Ram]

Ya I guess people can't blame Ewell for being inexperienced and not suited to Lee's style of orders. He still lost the battle though. The first day he decided not to continue pursueing the Federals up Culps and Cemetary Hills. He probably thought that he couldn't do it in all the confusing without Hill's support but, whatever his reason was, it was probably wrong. At least he still had a reason.

The second day of battle was a different story though. Lee had direct orders for Ewell to attack the Federal "Fish hook" right flank as a diversion while Longstreet launch the main attack on the left. He didn't attack until Longstreet was beaten off and only Johnston's division attacked. Early's division didn't go in and Rode's division was still in the town. I was so angry when I read that. Both in the novel and in the reports + summaries of the battle.

And ya I guess Lee has to be blamed for a lot of the mistakes too.

For those who read the novel or watched the movie, what would have happened if Chamberlain's regiment was routed or retreated? The movie and novel put him as the saviour of the entire Federal army but some argue that Sedgiwick's corps in reserve could have retaken Little Round Top.

As for the battle. Since the AOP won the battle, it wasn't really a big deal as for the importance of the ground captured like Vicksburg. Of course it was really important that Washington was saved. But could Meade have retreated to his Pipe Creek Line as he had planned and held Lee off there? It is as good a ground as Gettysburg.