Giant and Undead civilization

[Niveras]

An undead civ could be interesting, but it doesn't mesh well with FFH lore. What motivation does an undead have to found a city? They don't eat and they don't reproduce. Also, making them Fallow kind of encroaches on the Infernals' uniqueness.

It's not the undead themselves that are founding cities. There will be a sentient leader, probably a powerful necromancer or lich, that is guiding the 'civilization.' You don't really need to tie deeply into lore for why they exist (not like Os-Gabellah's wanting to end her immortal life by bringing around armageddon, for instance). Hell, you can even say Barbatos is the leader, and he just wants to make everything dead. Then undead.

Since the civs of FFH and fixed and these new empires will be purely modmod'ed, encroaching on the uniqueness of Infernal isn't really a concern, especially if they use a different method for increasing their cities (like getting mane-type units from kills or pillaging that they need to bring back to their capital, rather than getting them directly in the capital after razing evil cities).

 

[Arctic Circle]

Well, if you have an undead civ I do belive in having it all -undead-, not humans ruled by some undead leaders. Have it fallow etc, otherwise what is the difference from the existing Vampire nation except Necromancers instaed of the Vampires? No point really. Make it fallow, make it have unique way of increasing city size etc. Make the civ Hero somewhat weak immortal spellcaster physically but with +2 affinity for death mana. Well, that is just my opinion.

 

[Tarquelne]

An undead civ could be interesting, but it doesn't mesh well with FFH lore. What motivation does an undead have to found a city?

To help build enough power and/or influence to re-assemble the Stones of Night and destroy the thing known as "Dagda's Gate" forever. This would free their power and make possible their crusade to bring back all the glories of the Age of Magic. The loss of all life on Erebus is a price they're willing to pay.

 

[PapaMonkey]

I think that this idea could be a lot of fun. For the naysayers: it is easy enough to not play the mod-mod, no harm done. For those interested, put your two cents in and see what we can come up with!

The giants remind me of the Thomas Covenant chronicles and Seareach. These giants were friends of humankind and were incredible builders. They had a civilization (which was destroyed prior to the visit of Thomas) and made many world contributions.

Some way to balance a civilization like this would be to play with the food consumption rate. If every pop ate 3 or 4 food instead of 2, that would show the effect on the larger size on the supporting economy. The giants would need to create more farms their city size would be far more limited because of their dependance on the local food supply. Their production would be normal time, (they are bigger and can do more at once, but they must build in an equally large scale).

 

[Wyrmhero]

You'd have to edit/block them from sacrifice the weak though, as going from 4 to 1 food consumption's a bit too much. Or maybe the giants are agnostic. I don't know. I'm just throwing ideas out.

 

[Tyrs]

This thread seems disjointed with TWO new civ modmods here at once...I would suggest someone make one for each instead.

 

[micmc]

instead of "cities" have necropolies, and have them be "on the site of ancient" battlefieds (as an origin) and until they are "revenged"/justice served..fill in the blank with the lore as you will...they will not rest

on the diplomacy side you could have them be warmongers and mercs. who area always seeking to swell their own ranks with a philopshocial bent of "until you are without the lusts of life you cannont know wisdom" and have the leadership of lichdom bent on their own godhead (meaning they have ot get smart enough (magic enough) to challange the gods) and thus be released from thier own torrment, while retaining immortality.

I dunno if it'd make a good civ, but it'd make a pretty good book.

 

[Alzara]

PapaMonkey, people nay-say all the time at ideas put forward. There is no need to make a special instance to inform people that they don't have to play a modmod. We already know this, and are expressing opinion.

Al

 

[Ringtailed]

I'm wondering if it's even possible for a single lich to raise an entire self-aware undead civ? Remember, the only permanent undead summon is skeletons which can't gain promotions so I'm guessing they are mindless. The other undead (spectres and wraiths) are only temporary. I'm not saying you can't think of a way but it's not enough IMO to just say "necromancy."

 

[Niveras]

I'm wondering if it's even possible for a single lich to raise an entire self-aware undead civ? Remember, the only permanent undead summon is skeletons which can't gain promotions so I'm guessing they are mindless. The other undead (spectres and wraiths) are only temporary. I'm not saying you can't think of a way but it's not enough IMO to just say "necromancy."

Who says the undead have to be self aware? They could still be mindless. I would not envision them to be a regular civilization anyway, which is I suggested why fallow, no culture (except from increasing city size), and growing only by killing living units.

 

[Tyrs]

Well, technically speaking, their are no lichs, however since this is fantasy...=P. Seriously though, the idea of moding is general is to make something your own, so whether or not it fits perfectly with the canon isn't particularly relevant. That said, the canon is very cool, and extremely well written, so staying as close to it as possible just makes for a better experience. However, that doesn't mean we can't tweak it to fit an undead civ if we chose to. What micmc said actually sounds like pretty good lore, and I think it fits with the flavor. Not with the FFH lore, but it sounds like something Kael and crew could have come up with. I like it

 

[micmc]

First, sorry Al, we were discussing I don't think any of us meant to make you feel bad or sound holier than thou...com'n let's get a ginger ale and call it square.


Ringtail said this:
I'm wondering if it's even possible for a single lich to raise an entire self-aware undead civ? Remember, the only permanent undead summon is skeletons which can't gain promotions so I'm guessing they are mindless. The other undead (spectres and wraiths) are only temporary. I'm not saying you can't think of a way but it's not enough IMO to just say "necromancy."

Trying to remember how many LT's and bodyguards a lich got from the old monster manual, but a busy little lich with time on his hands and a whole graveyard full of parts could probably stay pretty busy making followers.

Niveras said this:
Who says the undead have to be self aware? They could still be mindless. I would not envision them to be a regular civilization anyway, which is I suggested why fallow, no culture (except from increasing city size), and growing only by killing living units.

In order to be a civilization you can't be mindless...though granted Rennfest people come close.... so you'd have to have some intellegence in the soup at some point...or run a "second barbarian" kingdom which would build itself like normal but you'd never have diploancy with them..other than them yelling how they are going to eat your mother...and not in the good way.

And Tyrs said this:
Well, technically speaking, their are no lichs

Nu-UH! there are too liches...Joan Rivers is my case in point and Sean Connery is on his way to lichdom.

 

[Tarquelne]

Trying to remember how many LT's and bodyguards a lich got from the old monster manual...

No, no, no! We should draw our inspiration from GURPS, where the undead a necromancer can control is a multiple of his weight. So the undead civ would have special buildings like "Donut Shop" and "Candy Store" to increase military production, and the Necromancer unit would have the interesting mechanic of becoming slower as it gained strength until it's finally immobile.

@Papamonkey: We're just listing all the possible ways the mod could be done that wouldn't work. After that it'll be easy.

 

[Niveras]

In order to be a civilization you can't be mindless...though granted Rennfest people come close.... so you'd have to have some intellegence in the soup at some point...or run a "second barbarian" kingdom which would build itself like normal but you'd never have diploancy with them..other than them yelling how they are going to eat your mother...and not in the good way.

I hate to use it as an example, but the Scourge (not to be confused with the Forsaken) in the Warcraft universe does a pretty good job of being a civilization while being mindless. They have more than a single leader controlling everything, even if the Lich King itself has total control, but they have their own system of building and a single goal (or, rather, the lich king has a goal). They just don't eat, procreate or generate art. Or do research, for that matter, but I don't know how you'd work that into a 4x game.

Edit: In my mind, referring to the undead as a civilization is a bit of a misnomer anyway. While they would act as an empire in the sense that they conquer territory and grow in military power, they would not have a culture except in its complete absence. There is simply no other way to describe a playable race in Civilization except as a... civilization.

 

[Tarquelne]

Edit: In my mind, referring to the undead as a civilization is a bit of a misnomer anyway. While they would act as an empire in the sense that they conquer territory and grow in military power, they would not have a culture except in its complete absence.

Doesn't that depend on exactly how the undead are imagined in the background and implemented in the game?

(ie, "In my mind..." means "The way I imagine the undead...")

EDIT: Looking over previous posts that seems to be the case. Good... I was beginning to wonder if a pamphlet of some sort (perhaps "UNDEAD: Their true nature and what it means to you!") had been going around and I'd missed it.

 

[Niveras]

Yeah. This is just how I envision the civilization should be. Whether the person who adds them in agrees is entirely up to them. I am just trying to think up some flavor so they're not just another 'make people, train warriors, crush enemies' kind of thing. Other people have had some neat ideas too, but for obvious reasons I think mine is the best.

 

[Ringtailed]

Seriously though, the idea of moding is general is to make something your own, so whether or not it fits perfectly with the canon isn't particularly relevant.

If it's going to be a modmod of FFH, where the extra civs are played *along with* the 21 canon civs, it is relevant. If the extra civs don't make sense from a lore point of view it's not FFH any more. It's like if we added, say, the Svartalfar and Bannor and Luchuirp to a game of BTS civ4 along with the Babylonians and Romans and Egyptians. It wouldn't make any sense.

On the other hand, if it were going to be a separate mod where it uses the FFH engine and just has the extra civs squaring off against each other (and no canon civs) in a fantasy world that might be FFH-based or might not be, then it's not an issue any more.

Of course, I'm not telling anyone what they can or can't do. I'm just a lot less interested in extra civs if they become generic_fantasy_race01.

 

[Tyrs]

That's true, I just meant to say that a perfect fit isn't necessary for a modmod. I don't really go for the extra civs anyway, I just have a thing for roleplaying stereotypically evil characters/civs/races non-evilly, that's why this interests me. Calabim/Order is my favorite type of game....

 

[Dark Russell]

Nu-UH! there are too liches...Joan Rivers is my case in point and Sean Connery is on his way to lichdom.

You missed Dick Clark.

 

[micmc]

You missed Dick Clark.

I thought he was a Plas-golem...but anyway.

With what has been said in the last several posts, I agree in most part, making another civ to make another civ is kinda pointless. Kael did a great job of hitting the zodiac points of the alignment circle and flavor wheel, so what else needs to be done...based upon the lore undeadwise?

The first temptation is to always do the werewolf-vampire-ninja-superhero civ and then arbitrary things are thrown in to make it seem more fair and playable. The next habit seems to be do a low-power mass formation civ, again with stuff thrown in to balance the civ out.

Let's look at some stuff.

What is fun?
What tools already exist (with a little work) that can be applied in wholely new ways?
what iconoclastic niche are we trying to fill? (alignment, or flavor, or powers, or other "things" that make a civ a civ.)
Given the lore what logical progression would happen if YOU were a civ leader trying to gather power.



Then next in storytelling when something isn't coming up right you turn it around and look at it from the other angle.

Does an undead civ have to be evil by it's nature? Can a undead civ be neutral and natural (given the fact death itself is natural). Can an undead civ be good, (given the fact they are now beyond temptation of vice?)

Back years ago one of the better campagins I played in (for too brief a time) was a "civ" based upon Lawful good Liches who fashioned themselves to be Paladins (not by standard D&D rules, more what they thought of themeselves)...every little kid within the civ was taught to "do good and maybe one day you'll be chosen to be one of our Lords (the liches)". The logic of it all being the only way to put oneself above the weakness of men was by being dead, so then no longer swayed by the temptations of the flesh and avarice.
The DM died before we flearned the secret of the campagin, but we alwyas got the impression somethign sinister was going to happen to us.

but let's spend the day focusing on the questions above, rather than chasing each other's tails with other stuff. Just a thought to help the process.