Giant and Undead civilization

[Tarquelne]

Exactly. Mindless undead aren't something that will fit in well with an actual civilisation.

So they'd have to be not-mindless. That may not fit terribly well with the lore, but an undead civ. would be an exception to the rule. Or in a modmod.

You could even go with something like relatively few (even just 1 per city?) spirits animating the various "people" making up the civ. (A variation of necromancer/litch + horde.)

In regard to angels and demons. They do form civilisations, just odd ones. Also, they are actually capable of independent thought.

Well, yes. So if an undead civ is done it'd probably be best as an odd civ not populated by drones.

The whole undead thing is just made up, yes? We could make up undead that'd fit together as a civ.

It'd be best with a FFH2 hook, though. Here's another possibility: The Mercurians and Infernals might be considered the Good and Evil "undead" civs. How about a Neutral one? Or at least that's what it says... It looks to the past as a time when the world was properly in balance and is trying to re-create that past. It's recruits, it's people, are members of past who hate the present. (Maybe largely those killed at the end of the Age of Magic, people who think that the AoM progressed to much. Intercepted by the civ's ruler, I'd say, as they went wherever they were supposed to be going.) It's people and philosophy are fanatically reactionary. It's mission is to destroy the Age of Rebirth civs that are upsetting the balance. Which is all of them...

 

[Alzara]

I just don't think it fits very well. D&D released a basic "sentient" undead civilisation and I didn't like that either. I guess it's not my cup of tea, though you guys are entitled to do what you like with it

I'd be a bit dissapointed if it was incorperated into normal FfH, however

Al

 

[Tarquelne]

I just don't think it fits very well.

I completely agree with what you've said about the pitfalls of making a undead civ. I just think it's possible to avoid them.

I'd be a bit dissapointed if it was incorperated into normal FfH, however

The odds of that are pretty much 0. The civs are set.

 

[Alzara]

Fair enough

I'll certainly check back to see how this develops. Who knows... maybe you could match up to the flavour of Warcraft's Scourge. I image that would be your best approach, though it would take a lot of engineering.

Who knows, when an initial version is released, maybe you'll sway my opinion (though I still reserve my doubts)

Al

 

[Demus]

as an undead civ... i'm still thinking about the HoMM4 undead campaign:

The leader realises undead beings aren't capable of getting any type of economy going. So he basically starts a nation pretty much like the calabim here: most beings in the nation are normal alive humans. Only the military is based on undead units.

How about a civ with a few odd rituals: total obedience to the state is demanded, both in life and death. Once citizens have outlived their usefullness as alive beings, instead of being sent to one of the vaults they're resurrected as undead warriors. Higher tier undead units require more complex rituals, thus the increased costs and unique buildings? Their hero would obviously be a necromancer, the world spell a "mass necro rite", granting 1 skeleton per population in every city, but reducing the population by 1/2 or 1/3.

 

[micmc]

well this entire thread is about a mod-mod, so I doubt seriously any of the powers that be are taking us seriously if we begged to get it stuffed into regular FhH.....you can hear the laughter if you listen close enough even now.

at what point, outside of of hollywood, did undead translate to mindless though? It could be semantically argued that relgiions based upon Zorastraiansism..(HA, how is that for spelling! *grin*) are undead...if you never truely die, only go onto a greater form of life within the god's realm, that does mean you are undead too...though admittedly stretching that arguement too far would produce an ass-whuppin' I suspect.

but yes if you look at the undead civ's that have gone before...as have been mentioned above, it is all pretty awefully done...'course the same thing could have been argued about space movies in 1976, and now look at where we are. The right guys doing this could do something like hasn't been done before....just cuz somehting ussually sucks doesn't mean it always has to suck by its nature.

 

[Arctic Circle]

As for giants, you have to wonder just why they would move into cities, when just one of them can effectively uproot everything in its path. They would need small cities, unless they are forcing humans to work for them. I'd say they would actually have to be something like half-giants (with medium str enhance promotion 'Half-Giant'), maybe with a unique GP like the Grigori which is a full giant, maybe created every 50 turns or so that can turn into any unit. It would have to have the 'Giant' promotion to set it apart (giving it a large str enhancer), and the graphics for the normal units would be the same as for the Giants, but scaled up. They should probably be denied the Mage/Archmage units.

What do you think of these ideas?

I do not have much clever things to say about Undead, except that I love Reg Shoe.

However, low tier units would have to be 'youngling' giants or similar, there need to be balance. I am not sure about the GP only giants, since it would remove all the cool UU's. Frost giants like single big frostlings, Titans instaed of immortals, Trolls instaed of rangers etc.

I can see perhaps gigant cities only being 1 tier. And called Kunningaseat, Helderseat, Jaknaseat, Hammerseat, Blacknugseat etc. And be the seat/homestead of a small family group. Just speculating. Of course, like with Calabim one would have to assume that much of the population are slaves of various sorts, perhaps include some unique building that is slave-oriented..

Denying them the mage/archmage unit is a little evil, but could work. I still don't see a giant civ as necessarily 'barbarian'.

And I am sure that Giants would move together to form groups, and civilizations for the same reasons any other race would. Community, Sharing recourses, Mutual recognition, Survival, Procreation etc.

 

[Niveras]

Possibility for undead growth: Killing living units results in a 'corpses' promotion for the undead civ's unit. The unit can then go back to a city and cast 'raise corpses' to add one population point. Most units would only be able to carry one 'corpses' promotion, but some others might be able to carry more if possible (such as the catapult, perhaps also some of the late game melee unique units to replace national units, like the phalanx).

Alternatively, they could just work like the slaves mechanic and you get a simple 'risen corpses' unit from killing living units, which act as a cross between slaves and manes (e.g. can build improvements or add population to a city, but not production). The actual worker unit for the civilization should be something different, like a misshapen skeleton, to reflect that actual complete humanoid corpses are a limited resource, so you're having to put them together yourself with whatever is on hand (like animal bones).

I think I actually favor the slaves mechanic, since it also gives an opportunity for some spells unique to the civilization that mirror regular spells. For instance, instead of Law 2 Restore City, Death 2 can 'Mass Raise Dead,' giving you several risen corpses when cast on a city ruins (preferably based on how large the city was in life, but I don't know if that is possible).

Culture of the civ's cities would be based completely on the size of the city, probably around 5 or 7 corpses you get your first culture bloom, and maybe around 15 you get your second.

 

[CMHistory]

I agree that there is 0 chance for an Undead or Giant civ to be added to the core game (certainly mod-mod material, though!).

Putting that aside, however, I would suggest that an Undead civ be Fallow and receive a building much like "Demonic Citizens" to allow for those same tweaks to be had, but allow population growth mechanics to stem from either pillaging towns (receive a population point in the form of a new mane-like unit per stage of the town pillaged, up to 3), razing cities (once again, a mane-like unit per point of population destroyed that you could then re-settle or updgrade, just like manes), OR from killing high level units in the field (say, level 6+ units provide one mane-like unit, I want to call them "Shamblers" or somesuch). There should also be an Undead unit like the taskmaster which turns defeated living units into either slave/workers or an undead version of the previous unit under the player's control.

For Giants, I would think that they should receive a civ specific building that either penalizes their food production or doubles the amount of food needed to increase population, to simulate their ponderous breeding cycle. To compensate, they would obviously have stronger-than-normal unit strengths for their giant units.

Just a few thoughts....

 

[xienwolf]

You could claim that the Hill Giants we see now are really only Half-Giants. Make the T4 units about 150% size of that, and have Great People all replaced by really fun "True" Giants which are 2x-3x the size of a Hill Giant.


It could be an enjoyable mechanic to develop the Giant Civilization as another "No-Hero" Civ, instead having them use Great People Points (all types replaced, so incapable of getting normal GP. To compensate give them Organized & possibly some kind of access to Wane or a similar spell) to generate powerful Giants of various styles.

 

[micmc]

you had in D&D(the first edition, yes I am that old)

cloud giants
fire giants
storm giants

all of whom were pretty nasty caster types, so you could do a lot with the magic system...and as Wolf pointed out so well you could stay away from the specialists ideal and compensate in other ways...I'd keep the hero ideals though and maybe even make lvl X giants be able to found cities (without destorying the unit)...so bascially when Ma & Pa Giant have a little (!) baby, and baby grows up, goes out and beats things to death, then can foudn his own bastion and becomes the biggest SOB in his part of the valley. You control and balance as you went along to get the birthrate to the point where you wouldn't need regular settlers.

we do need to get the t-rex footstep sound from the orginal Jurasic park though

 

[Tarquelne]

You could claim that the Hill Giants we see now are really only Half-Giants...develop the Giant Civilization as another "No-Hero" Civ

I think that's a great idea.

 

[Alzara]

Half-giants.... that could work

Al

 

[micmc]

Half-giants.... that could work

Al

but does anyone else have the image of Maramaduke doing nasty things to a toy poodle?

 

[Tarquelne]

It could be an enjoyable mechanic to develop the Giant Civilization as another "No-Hero" Civ,

Back to this: A super-worker giant could be a fun and interesting option. Especially if they could engage in some unique tasks.

 

[thapagan]

Not an undead civ, but a necromancer leader that gives you access to a handful of undead
units that are better than your living smucks but have other drawbacks (cause unhappyness, unheath, money, population.

now the giants I see as the trolls from masters of magic, big strong, not a lot of buildings and slow growth.

 

[westamastaflash]

It'd be neat to have the Undead civ created when necromancy is researched, much like hyborem.

 

[Tarquelne]

It'd be neat to have the Undead civ created when necromancy is researched, much like hyborem.

There could be a random event that can only trigger after N. is researched that transforms a random AI civ into an/the Undead civ.

 

[Ringtailed]

An undead civ could be interesting, but it doesn't mesh well with FFH lore. What motivation does an undead have to found a city? They don't eat and they don't reproduce. Also, making them Fallow kind of encroaches on the Infernals' uniqueness.

 

[Alzara]

Here here

Al