Girl Problems? Ask

[C~G]

Oh please, we want a discussion. Don’t get resentful just because people are disagreeing with you. Quitting isn’t an option. I love this discussion.

I have said this before but I believe not much fruitation will come out of this. This issue ain't that interesting for me. Maybe couple years back it would have been but now.... You can believe as you want and probably can convince quite many people it is so. It doesn't matter to me though. We all have our beliefs.

Your argument is so weak that you automatically use the word “if,” instead of “when,” because you just KNOW what you are saying will NEVER happen.

No, my argument is so strong that I use intentionally "if" so I don't sound arrogant, or do I need to be and play alpha-male to you too before you belief me.

There will always be a VERY distinguishable line between those who “get it” and those who do not. It boils down to people’s interests. You can say “if” all you want to try to prove a hypothetical point, but that just isn’t good enough.

And I thought I was saying that there's more to it than just simple analysis that Tony Little's workout machine builds up stamina because gurus says so. Funny me.

All I wanted to prove was that beyond the acknowledgement that it's about game and you have to get out of that "nice guy/jerk"-mindset is that everything else is also hypothetical. Especially the things how they have "biological base".

But since I don't want to personally repeat myself and hell don't want you to do it either, it's better just leave it here. If we don't understand each other, then it's fine.

He would be exactly where you want me to believe most unattractive guys are. At a huge disadvantage. Sorry, that just isn’t true.

Never said such thing.
It is just one of the advantages you can play with for your advantage. But you make it sound like it isn't a factor.

The fact that you say that you could dig deeper kind of makes your credibility shrink.

Well, I didn't want to dig deeper regarding how this all has to do with other issues of human psychology since right from the start I have been said how wrong I am. So I don't bother.

And why did you have to shoot yourself in the foot by starting the “fake breast” argument? We ALL know that guys are clearly more automatically attracted to a woman’s looks and physique.

Yes the shot hit my feet and pierced through your skull. Happy now?
In fact you just proved for me why you don't actually get it what is behind all this.
I give one hint: The whole idea of this "alpha-male" thing is faking it to be one just like with fake breasts. If you know the theories what breasts mean to men it actually doesn't have lot to do how "fine" they look only but sometimes it is just that.

So I’ll just keep pounding away saying that an exception does not render ALL of this untrue.

Again. Never said such thing. I said that I agree about confidence but that's it.

Girls are not attracted to looks nearly as much as they are attracted to a plethora of other characteristics.

I remember saying that we don't know which is the weight of these characteristics. There are certain characteristics that ultimately tend to attract more women compared to other characteristics but that doesn't help the people that don't have those characteristics. This, if we disregard the whole confidence and flirtation thing.

I don’t understand your argument of “more than one alpha males in a situation.” Aren’t there more than one highly attractive girls in certain situations also?
If there are, which do you think I’ll choose? The attractive girl who is boring or the attractive girl who is outgoing and fun? (Ooh, now we start getting into people’s characters having an impact on attraction, no?)

So apparently for you the deal goes like this: Men are attracted to outgoing fun busty girls while women are attracted to lame looking men with confidence that flirt. What happens when room is full of them both?
Then there's example the sense of humour factor, some say it's important, others say it's not.
And I already mentioned earlier that all the other characteristics of men affect the process which you are now admitting to happen.

Why would I leave the gurus out of it?

"By the experts" is rather problematic when it comes to non-scientific social studies.
I think it's lot based into belief of truthfullness of those gurus and certain basic principles that make appear these theories to be true all or at least most of the time. Sleight of hand that is.
Like I said there's nothing wrong to believing into it but representing these all things as absolute facts is...quite a stretch.

They don’t offer more proof than you are comfortable with, now do they?

I don't even understand what you mean by that?
I happened to notice that confidence plays big part how women get attracted before I even read any books about it but I believe the choosing of partner in long run is different issue along with that I cannot agree about stretching the theory that it will ultimately save "man"kind or how it seen based into biology. These are wild guesses which have no truth whatsoever to them even if simple flirtation techniques presented by the same author appear to work while dating.

Why do you think the gurus are successful?

It depends in what they are successfull in. If they are looking for perfect mates, they cannot be successfull all the time since one time would be enough (You probably already noticed why this theory can be seen to have weak points.)
If they are playing for fun of it just to get some the reason is that they play it early, often and loud. (Marketing strategy)
Have you thought that maybe these gurus have qualities that you can never possess? Or they use these things in specific circumstances to get specific results or interpret them as they want them to be?
Or just maybe they want to make money with these "enlarge your ego" books?

Ooooh, now you are just trying to push my buttons, aren’t ya?
Don’t be so manipulative. And don’t try to inspire hatred in someone else for your own advantage.

It was friendly laugh.
Absolutely no offence meant. You weren't doing so crappy job with the giving advice I was trying to merely pointing out why it's still suspectible we don't see even fragment of the whole picture.

I am not forcing this down anybody’s throat.
If you like it and if it works for you, great. If not. Great. I couldn’t care less.

The thing is that I’ve followed it and I sure as hell won’t revert back to my previous mindset.

Good for you.
Since I don't know about your previous mindset I exactly know what was wrong with it.
And I absolutely agree about the bolded part.
What is so funny is that I don't even disagree that much about it only thing I did was to point out the rather apparent logical fallacies which seem to escape again and again from both of you.

No, the game doesn't change depending on your social circle, because everyone is human.

You can as well say that the game changes depending on your social circle because everyone is human.

I do back down now and you two can keep giving these advices to people.
Sorry for interrupting.

 

[Civrules]

Who's interrupting? This is all part of the topic, isn't it? Don't feel as if you don't "fit in." We can deal with you, even if you don't.
I swear man, 99% of the discussions in OT end up like this. "I am right, and you are wrong."
I'm okay with what you think because it doesn't influence my belief (thank God).
It's pointless to keep going at it since then it turns into a persuasion discussion and these just don't work because, for example, you will never believe some of what I write. That's okay.

I will however say that since I do practice the advice I read, none of it is simply for marketing. It simply works. Both Nanocyborgasm and I, and other posters are finding that it works.

Guys who are willing to enrich their lives are free to try this advice. If you don't feel it is appropriate, or holds no credibility. Fine. I really don't care, because my purpose in this thread is to simply provide advice to guys who need help with the girls.

I’ve considered that these gurus may have something I do not possess. They do. They are at their top level and they have years of experience – I do not have years of experience since I started some number of months ago. But everyone can grow. And as I have, I keep seeing better and better results.
Same with the thousands of other guys who are now experts at this when they started from scratch. Why do you keep assuming that there is a “trick” to it? Anyone can do it. You just have to believe it.

And yes, early on I did consider that these books were simply "enlarge your ego" books. As I said earlier, I even bashed the author of a book through email because I thought it was simply for $$$.

Yeah, I was pretty wrong to do that. The guy knew what he was talking about. As do all of them. They are generous enough to share the information.

These don't just work in "certain" circumstances. They work always. No matter what the situation. You can get a positive response at any time because you would then know how to respond and how to behave because you don't fear any situation. And THAT'S fun.
It's psychology. There's it's not rocket science. Things happen for a reason.
If someone gives you the cold shoulder, there's a reason.

Again, I'm perfectly happy with how people view this subject, no matter how different their views are from my views.

 

[Gelion]

I've a question for you too though. Since you asked this, what exactly are your concerns regarding it? I know that at times there are more than one or two people you like.

Thanks!
I did get from you the reply I thought I would get (at least in the general mesage). My main concern was that if I pay to attention to another girl, ther other will think that I'm onto that other one and.... and then I understood that its
1) her problem
2) will persuade her to do things if she DOES care.
So I got no more questions there

By saying that you want to keep your options open, are you concerned that if you show more affection for one person, the other will start acting weird?

Basically that was my concern, but it was wrong wasn't it?

Don't let the situation or the girls control you (in terms of their presence). You do what you feel is right. Girls are competitive. If you show one more interest, the other will sometimes start competing with her. It can get vicious. But I don’t know how they feel about you so I can’t guarantee how they will respond.

I think so far the one I "know" better is moving me into the friends zone, while the other.... would be interested.

So just be a man and don’t hide the fact that you want to talk or interact with one girl more than the other. The number one thing is to be laid back.
Don’t show that you are restricting yourself in how you are in front of them because that’s a turn-off…

Thanks, its a good advice.

I have two more questions.... If you are falling into the "friends zone"... what are the things you should stop doing? Again I think I know what, but I'd like to hear a more detailed answer.

A few pages ago you talked about 3 stages:
attract
comfort with
seduce
Can you ellaborate more on when each stage starts and ends?

P.S. I works! I've done a few.... things that would normally make me feel bad: not paying attention (deliberately), beeing more free (lets say) with the bodies of others, submitting and making girls question a few things. I'll tell you what... the experiment day worked. I'm def. getting more looks and attention than before. But there's a downside... it does take a lot more energy than "nice guy" stuff.

 

[Civrules]

The energy it takes is outweighed by the fun you'll have just knowing you are finally in control of this aspect.

Anyway,

I have two more questions.... If you are falling into the "friends zone"... what are the things you should stop doing? Again I think I know what, but I'd like to hear a more detailed answer.

A few pages ago you talked about 3 stages:
attract
comfort with
seduce
Can you ellaborate more on when each stage starts and ends?

P.S. I works! I've done a few.... things that would normally make me feel bad: not paying attention (deliberately), beeing more free (lets say) with the bodies of others, submitting and making girls question a few things. I'll tell you what... the experiment day worked. I'm def. getting more looks and attention than before. But there's a downside... it does take a lot more energy than "nice guy" stuff.

Cool, you’ve got good questions.
You are moving into the friend zone probably because of one reason: You are not building enough attraction but are trying with comfort instead. Even though this all has like three stages, attraction is the most important because it is the most illogical. So is it any wonder that so many people have a hard time with this whole “getting the girl” concept? (Don’t get me wrong, knowing how to attract someone alone doesn’t lead to a relationship. )
It’s illogical because you constantly have to do things that go against the grain, so to speak. You definitely do not want to have boring conversations about things such as your work, where she grew up, and so on (these are in the comfort building level, and even then, you should make them interesting to talk about by throwing some negs and being, as David D. says, “cocky and funny&#8221.

So if you are headed into the friend zone, don’t respond to her in a logical way to every question she asks. You have to have a lot of energy about you if you are going to make this work because low energy in general doesn’t work very well. You have to act as if you don’t care what you say, and even if you say something totally weird, you are totally comfortable with it. Example:
She: How old are you?
You: Giraffes have longer necks than you can possibly imagine.

You KNOW you have done a good job if she says that you are weird or crazy. That is what you want, but it is just ONE EXAMPLE. The point is to be interesting! You are not some boring guy who says things that ALWAYS make sense. When she says these things, it opens up a lot more you can work with. BUT you have to be totally self-confident in everything you do. If you are, it really doesn’t matter what you say because you’ll just make it work, while at the same time making her more curious. If you are not sure in yourself when saying these things, she really might think you are crazy. So always have a little self-assured half-smile about you that tells her that you are in complete control.
If she says you are crazy or weird, thank her, and tell her that she is just too boring for you!

This is a neg. One of the things that I learned about negs (a few weeks ago, actually) is that when you neg her, DO NOT look for a response. Otherwise it does not work. Say, “well, you’re just too boring,” and then look away. If you do not look away and look for a response, she’s the one who will look away first and then the neg doesn’t work because you’d be looking for her approval.
When you say these things to her, but at the same time when you are totally confident and funny, she’s going to wonder what’s up and she will start sending you indicators of interest.
On the other hand, if she compliments you, tell her to stop sucking up to you (again, after you say this don’t look for a response). The game goes on and on, and it can be so fun.
This is the framework of the Attraction phase.
You challenge her.
Display higher value by not being needy, or being unaffected by what she does.
You ALWAYS walk away first. The key is being unpredictable because if you are she knows you are easily controllable. That alone does not “display higher value.”

From Attraction > Comfort Building > Seduction there is no time written in stone for how long it should take.
When you have enough comfort (when she starts sending indicators of interest, touching you, etc) you can move on to Comfort Building. During comfort she has to get to know you better. And she has to trust you. At that point you are still a challenge but lay off on the negs. Instead, neg her by being quiet. When she says something you do not like, do not respond and look away (again, confident, half-smile).
When you have enough comfort you can seduce. By enough comfort I mean that the two of you should be able to talk like old friends. Not interview-style talk. This should not be confused with going into the friend zone. At that point it should be clear both are interested in each other.
Experiment yourself with how long this takes, because it varies.

The thing is that you have to be unpredictable and interesting.

 

[punkbass2000]

@CG: I suspect that the maintenance of the idea that the method is infallible is a crucial aspect of the method itself.

 

[C~G]

@CG: I suspect that the maintenance of the idea that the method is infallible is a crucial aspect of the method itself.

Yeah I kinda figured that out in first time but that is the very fact that can lead into kind of interesting conclusions about the fallibily of the theory.

I really don't care, because my purpose in this thread is to simply provide advice to guys who need help with the girls.

Which is very good idea and that's why I did feel I interrupted this advice thread with my rambling.

But keep going, never know when I might need ask advice for myself as well.

 

[Rossiya]

Wow, C~G and Civrules are still debating.

 

[Cheetah]

C~G and CivGeneral?? Sure you're not confusing some names here?

Anyways..

Great thread Civrules!

I'm mostly lurking here, but I just thought up a followup question to Gelion's post:

If Gelion wants to keep both options open, and reaches the comfort building or seduction stage with one of the girls, will the difference in how he acts towards each of the girls change anything? Will the girls notice the difference? Will their attitudes toward him change?

(I hope you don't mind that I use you as an example Gelion. )

 

[Rossiya]

C~G and CivGeneral?? Sure you're not confusing some names here?

Oh yeah...

 

[Gelion]

ROFL sure use me as an example. Plus its a question I wanted to ask eventualy.

 

[Civrules]

Great thread Civrules!

I'm mostly lurking here, but I just thought up a followup question to Gelion's post:

If Gelion wants to keep both options open, and reaches the comfort building or seduction stage with one of the girls, will the difference in how he acts towards each of the girls change anything? Will the girls notice the difference? Will their attitudes toward him change?

(I hope you don't mind that I use you as an example Gelion. )

If he wants to keep both options open he needs to at be making them both attracted to him. You can keep doing that without proceeding further because when someone is attracted to you, they can't just get tired of being attracted, unless of course there is another guy who takes it to the next level.

If he reaches the comfort building or seduction with one of the girls then both him and the girl should know that there is a potential for something. Yes, the other girl will notice. Things get a little complicated because there are different beliefs:
Some people believe in dating more than one girl at once because dating by itself is not a relationship. I suspect that if Gelion wanted to date one of the girls, he would have to focus more attention on her and leave the other on the backburner because it would be weird to focus and date both of them because they are in the same work environment.

The girl’s attitude depends solely on the girl. I don’t know the girls but if they both are socially aware they wouldn’t mind any bit of it. They’d accept it as part of dating, and sure, the other one (if she is also attracted) will get jealous and secretly want him to stop dating the other girl and focus his attention on her instead.
If the girl who is not dating Gelion (hypothetically) is a low self-esteem freak of a head case, you’ll likely see a more cold and unusual response such as VERY obvious indifference and even rudeness.



Remember one thing: Secretly people want other people/competition to fail. And when they do fail, others secretly enjoy it.
Thus if people get weird with you just because you are enjoying success, close them off from you at all costs. No mercy.

 

[Shigga]

Remember one thing: Secretly people want other people/competition to fail. And when they do fail, others secretly enjoy it.
Thus if people get weird with you just because you are enjoying success, close them off from you at all costs. No mercy.

I disagree. First, there are ppl that are happy when you suceed. Secondly, if you start closing of ppl you start closing yourself off and that will get you on a social island pretty fast. Rather, I would phrase it like "respect their attitude, but don't let it bother you". Which means, be yourself and don't care what other ppl think about you, EXCEPT for very few ppl or even just one who has proven to be sound. Bc if those ppl are saying sth, there's usually a very good reason for it that you should be aware of.

 

[Civrules]

Sure, of course not everyone is like that. I certainly don't expect friends to be. And yes, friends are the one to be happy to see you succeed (most of the time and depending on how close the friends are).
Maybe I've just had different experiences but I still stand by the point that some people just don't like competition and get weird about it.

I say that you should close off yourself to these people because no one wants negative people around them because you don't even realize how they can bring you down. I've closed off some people like that and on the contrary my social circle has expanded because of the people I actually meet and surround myself with.
So choose friends wisely and avoid people you don't want.

I don't know, that might just be me, but it has worked pretty well to filter positive people with an open mind.