Giving Canoes to Natives [ACCEPTED]

[raystuttgart]

Hi guys,

General Concept:

Inspired by the code bits of @LPlate2 I suggest to give Canoes to Natives, Native Mercenaries, Rangers and Scouts.

Whenever one of these 2 Units steps on a "Lake", "Large Rivers" or "Coast" or "Shallow Coast" or "Coral Reefs" plot it transforms into a Canoe. (Water Domain)
When that Canoe then steps back on "Land" it will re-transform into the original Unit. (Land Domain)

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Technical Comments:

Technically we will probably use a "Profession" for that.
So the Unit stays the same and just the Profession changes. (Which includes a change from "Water Domain" to "Land Domain".)
(The old Profession needs to be stored as well to set it back for Domain Changes.)

This may sound like a small addition for gameplay and considering "technical capabilities" for WTP itself (since we have only few Units that may use it for immersion).
But for modmods with other scenarios it may be !!! extremely powerful !!! to be able to transform Units (by Profession) from Land Domain to Water Domain and vice versa.
The "capabilty" to transform (by Professions) will be configurable in XML of Units.

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Gameplay Effects:

So what is this concept doing for gameplay:

• Natives, Native Mercenaries and Rangers and Scouts will be able to cross Lakes.
  
• Natives and Rangers and Scouts will be able to cross short distances between Islands (2 Plot Gaps).
• Natives, Native Mercenaries and Rangers and Scouts will be able to travel faster on Large Rivers

Future additions and enhancements may make further use of this for gameplay.

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Grapics Needed:

To make this possible I would need a graphical modder to create 2 versions of Canoes for me.
(It is basically the same Profession but it will have 2 different UnitArtStyles)

1. A Native sitting in a Canoe.
2. A European sitting in a Canoe.

Graphics may need Combat Animations.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Canoes for Natives, Rangers and Scouts - great idea.

However - mounted natives or Seasoned Scouts with horses fitting in canoes?
e.g. where in that picture would you place the horse?

Coast, Lakes - sure. But if Canoes are for shallow waters then why not add Coral Reefs which as ocean squares else would be excluded?

Too many units can simply cross a Large River anywhere. Normally in history before the 19th century and the bridges then built everyone had to look for fords to wade through the water. That should not be a reason to disallow canoes in large rivers - after all movement by canoe would probably be faster than by foot.

And at a ford canoes and foot units and mounted units all could be present

Attacking from a canoe towards a land unit would and should be possible, too.

Would canoe movement be the same as land movement? Would the promotions that raise land speed or lower movement cost of terrain for scouts work for canoe movement, too? Or would the canoe count as a shallow ship like the small coastal ship or fishing boat and have it´s own speed?

Found immage of an ojibwean war canoe

What about wetlands, swamps and marshes? e.g. the Everglades
Units in canoes should be better able to traverse those squares than foot or mounted units who have to search for the firm areas of land that are not mudholes or deadly traps waiting for someone to step inside. And being in a canoe should be somewhat more comfortable when meeting an alligator than wading in the water in which the alligator swims...

 

[raystuttgart]

Would canoe movement be the same as land movement?

Depends on what we configure.

Would the promotions ...

Depends on what we configure.

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Stuff like that are tiny questions in XML balancing of according Units, Professions and Promotions.

 

[raystuttgart]

However - mounted natives or Seasoned Scouts with horses fitting in canoes?

We could exclude e.g. "Scouts" from that feature if community really wants to.
For gameplay it would have been nice though to allow it for Scouts as well.

then why not add Coral Reefs

No problem to configure that as well. Just forgot it.
("Terrain Features" can be considered for Movement Rules as well since that part is already configurable anways.)

 

[raystuttgart]

That should not be a reason to disallow canoes in large rivers ...

It is just a "graphical thing".
If I get "Canoes" with combat animations from a graphical modder, that is no problem.

Ok, will adjust the concept.

 

[raystuttgart]

Ok I added the following:

1. Native Mercenaries also considered (had forgotten it)
2. Large Rivers also considered and also gets faster travel there
3. Coral Reefs also considered.

Ok like that?

 

[Nightinggale]

Technically we will probalby use a "Profession" for that.

While I generally do not have any objections to this, I do have one against using professions. The thing is the exe will draw whatever art the DLL respond with when asked. We can mod that function to allow custom art based on terrain. That will make it a purely graphical change while changing profession is more prone to bugs as it makes changes to other stuff as well.

 

[raystuttgart]

@Nightinggale:

I am not really sure I understand your objections against a Profession.
(Because it is not just "purely graphical" - the graphics change is a part of it.)

1. The Profession also allows different balancing. (e.g. Movement or if necessary Combat)
2. We can expand the Profession to switch to a different Domain (between Land and Water)
2. The Profession allows to leave the original Unit untouched.
4. Professions easily allow to assign UnitArtStyles (e.g. for Different Units)
5. Combination of Profession / Unit will be nicely dispalyed in UI.

Summary:

It will all be nicely configurable at the Profession.
And it is most likely the easiest way to implement it.
Why should we not use it?

By default it will nicely display:
(Which will make it much easier for the Plaer to understand.)

Profession (Unit)

e.g.:

• Canoe (Ranger)
• Canoe (Native Mercenary)
• ...

 

[Nightinggale]

1. The Profession also allows different balancing. (e.g. Movement or if necessary Combat)

Ok, then switching professions sounds like the right solution. However I'm not convinced implementing profession changes will be easy.

2. We can expand the Profession to switch to a different Domain (between Land and Water)

We would likely need the professions to all be DOMAIN_LAND or the area code for large rivers will act up. CvProfessionInfo can be expanded to contain professions to switch to for specific domains. No need to limit it to land and water in the code, even though odds right now is that it won't be used for anything else.

There are some potential issues though. For instance pathfinding won't be able to predict the changed professions, at least not easily. That might be a good reason to redo pathfinding though (long overdue) as it's dead slow. We should do a purely DLL implementation (not DLL-EXE mix) and optimize it. If it's fully under our control, we might be able to predict something like this without major issues.

 

[raystuttgart]

There are some potential issues though.

I am aware of the issue we might have with performance (e.g.pathfinding).
And currently I do not have a solution for it.

Currently it is more of a "technical brainstorming" ...
If we have better ideas, we may of course implement something different.

I currently just can not imagine anything better Considering gameplay, technical capability, balancing and UI.

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At some point I was actually even considering to make this a "Human only" feature.
So the Human would need to step next to a Water Plot and then actively push a "Unit Action Button" to transform into a Canoe.

That should eliminate all pathfinding / performance issues and drastically reduce effort (because no AI implementation would be needed).

 

[Tugboatspotter]

It sounds very much like the default behaviour of units from civ v onward when embarking.

Could it be implemented as a promotion? it would be a great promotion for scouts.

 

[raystuttgart]

It sounds very much like the default behaviour of units from civ v onward when embarking.

It is similar for a player on first sight because also a Unit on Land transforms to a Unit on Water.
But for a modder the technical solution and its implications are completely different.

Could it be implemented as a promotion?

No, the only technical solutions that may be considered are a Unit Change or a Profession Change - everything else will ruin Performance or AI.

 

[modmod]

Canoes -> like that.

Jet always believed that should be an unit - like coastal ships.
With the re-done cargo slots that is easy to allow only unit transportation.

As profession: Strange.

 

[Uraeus]

I vote Yes. i think its a good way to up the native strenght.

 

[raystuttgart]

As profession: Strange.

That is just the technical solution below the surface.
Players will never know / see such stuff ingame.

Did you e.g. know that I implemented "Whaling Boats" and "Fishing Boat" by technically using Professions System (to allow them to gather Yields)?
I bet you did not. (80% of the features are implemented in ways a Player will simply not understand why.)

 

[raystuttgart]

@Kathy had already created this here:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/archer-in-canoe.27056/

Currently I am heavily - and I mean really heavily - working on "Bonus Ressources".
(I am giving them several new features.)

But afterwards I might do this here.
(Seems to be a nice small features that is also interesting from a "technical challenge" perspective.)

 

[raystuttgart]

@Schmiddie
@Kathy
@SaibotLieh
@Moandor

Could one of you also create the 3D Unit graphics of the European Canoe for me?
(For the Native Canoe I will try to use the version of @Kathy.)

For 2D graphics (e.g. Buttons, 2D Europe / City Graphics) I can try it myself - I have learned now how to do such stuff.
But if one of you is motivated or interested to create those as well, I would appreciate all help to reduce my efforts.

To make this possible I would need a graphical modder to create 2 versions of Canoes for me.
(It is basically the same Profession but it will have 2 different UnitArtStyles)

1. A Native sitting in a Canoe.
2. A European sitting in a Canoe.

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Please post here if you will try to support.
(So the other graphical geniuses do not waste their time to create the same Unit.)

Thanks in advance.

 

[Kathy]

It is not that easy, as the skeletton of the water archer is based on the egyptian archer model. I had a native american model based on this which hat been added to the bones, but no (colonial age) European, and other models won't fit (or I do not know how to make them fit). In addition, Walther Hawkwood (I think) modified the legs of the Indian, someone would have to replace it with "European" legs. And, I think, the European should also use other animations, e.g. firing a rifle, not a bow. This is too much I can't do.

 

[devolution]

Just wanted to chime in to express my support for this feature. I always wanted a mechanism that would allow natives to cross non-ocean water plots. We could take it one step further and allow the canoe to transport a small amount of yields too since that would reduce the need for "beaming"/teleporting yields (like e.g. native gifts/trading)
Sorry to bring this up, but I think that we should consider a native land transport (or the peddler profession) as well but that should be a topic for another thread!

 

[raystuttgart]

Hm ok,

since I currently only have graphics for the "Native Canoe" this gets a "Native only" feature.
(No Canoes anymore for the White Man.)

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Also I will then transform it into the "Ship" of Natives. (Working similar to "Coastal Ships".)
No Profession or anything like that. --> It gets a very simple concept.

So what is this concept doing for gameplay:

• Natives will be able to transport Goods on Lake, Large Rivers, Coast, Shallow Coast
• Natives will be able to transport Units (other Natives) on Lake, Large Rivers, Coast, Shallow Coast
  
• Natives will be able to cross Lakes and short Gaps of Coast / Shallow Coast

Future additions and enhancements may make further use of this for gameplay.