Giving heroes a second chance: A small modmodmod

[Hawkwood]

This simple modmodmod adds two promotions:
Second Chance:

Spoiler :

• Unit survives being killed (and remains where it were when it died)
• Removed when killed
• Degrades to Recovering when lost

Recovering:

Spoiler :

• -200% strength
• -3 air combat range
• -200 defensive strike chance
• Removed when the unit is fully healed
• Grants the Second Chance promotion when removed

Second chance is added to most world units (only the Leviathan and Immortal ones doesn't have it) and adventurers.

Basically this means that you can be more courageous about using heroes since losing 80% odds battle (or a 95% if the RNG is against you) won't mean that you lose an irreplaceable unit. The penalties on Recovering means they can't affect other units until they regain Second Chance, and since Second Chance doesn't bring the unit to safety (and reduces the unit's movement to 0) it still needs protection if you want to keep it.

I would also like to make the Hero promotion less powerful, but I'm not good with exact balance so I'm going to need help with that.

There are very few issues: You get the popup for any unit with a popup that dies and if a unit with a random name dies the name changes, however the only unit with both a random name and the Second Chance promotion is an unupgraded adventurer (upgraded adventurers keep their name).

Credits:
Tsentom1: Because I used the code for his Survival promotion for the Second Chance promotion.
Tarquelne and Xienwolf: For helping me with getting the promotions to work.

EDIT: Sorry for forgetting this, if you couldn't get it to work, then download PythonCallbackDefines.rar.

 

[zup]

80%, 95%? You were throwing away your heroes (or possibly loading autosaves)? When I play with my heroes, 99.5% victory odds still give me pause. 1/200 chance of dying...way too high imo.

This seems exellent. Is there a particular FF patch this applies to?

 

[Hawkwood]

80%, 95%? You were throwing away your heroes (or possibly loading autosaves)? When I play with my heroes, 99.5% victory odds still give me pause. 1/200 chance of dying...way too high imo.

No, which is exactly my point. I think heroes should be braver and more courageous than normal units (or at least the melee heroes should be), and yet ingame they are the biggest cowards ever.

This seems exellent. Is there a particular FF patch this applies to?

It requires patch N.

 

[25Hour]

No, which is exactly my point. I think heroes should be braver and more courageous than normal units (or at least the melee heroes should be), and yet ingame they are the biggest cowards ever.

It requires patch N.

This is a great idea-- a small tweak, but I think it would definitely capture the feel and the intended effect of Hero units far, far better than the current system.

As for balancing the effect of the Hero promotion... what about just limiting the XP gain to a cap of 30 or so? You'd force them to really EARN their heroic strength/defense, which seems appropriate-- the primary benefit of the Hero promotion would then not be the free experience, but rather the effective (read: "if you're smart") immortality.

 

[deadliver]

This is a great idea-- a small tweak, but I think it would definitely capture the feel and the intended effect of Hero units far, far better than the current system.

As for balancing the effect of the Hero promotion... what about just limiting the XP gain to a cap of 30 or so? You'd force them to really EARN their heroic strength/defense, which seems appropriate-- the primary benefit of the Hero promotion would then not be the free experience, but rather the effective (read: "if you're smart") immortality.

Hmm, I kinda like this. I used to just park my heroes somewhere unless I really needed them and they would just level up. Maybe the hero promotion should allow them to gain extra XP per fight instead of/in addition to sucking in XP from mother universe?

 

[ICanHasName?]

Yea this modmodmod is a good idea. I agree that its silly for heroes to be in charge of mopup duty, or going in after the summons and cannon fodders. They should be leading the charge.

I never send in heroes at less then 99% odds. I can always build more throaways or micromanage up more 'homemade' adventurers but heroes are irreplaceable until long after I expect to have won, making them kindof tedious.

 

[Crazy_Ivan]

Perhaps halving the total free XP, to "until level 5" instead of 10, but with a XP gain modifier would make this a wellbalanced addition. It allows that the hero will have -some- tangible "I'm heroic, look at what my feats have given me, just for being awesome!" but without running around, piles of XP on his head with no fear of death.

I welcome it though, if only so Baron Duin "Goblins?" Halfmorn won't croak after so much as tripping on, well, goblins.

 

[Hawkwood]

Thanks for the feedback.
Should I limit the experience gain to 50 or 30? How extra XP should it give from combat 1 or a percentage like 50% or 25%? And last but not least, does Losha Valas need more nerfing than the other heroes (since the survival promotion is removed before Immortal)?

 

[WarKirby]

Have you tried playing a few games through with this? how does it work for the AI? Are they keeping their heroes alive more

 

[Mylon]

I'm tempted to use Warcraft 3 style heroes. If it dies, you have to rebuild the hero, perhaps with a hammer cost related to the level of the hero.

But then comes the trouble of keeping the hero relevant to late-game units.

 

[Honor]

Have you tried playing a few games through with this? how does it work for the AI? Are they keeping their heroes alive more

I doubt they will, without an AI algo that tells them to escort their hero with an army at all times and retreat when the hero gets injured.

Speaking of retreat, I don't think rooting the "recovering" hero to the spot is a good idea. As for the rest of your mod, this may actually be that missing component FfH has been looking for, for a long time.

 

[Hawkwood]

What rooting?
Also, I don't think the AI is going to attack with a unit that has -200% strength. So if the AI can be taught to accompany their heroes with other units, they should be better at keeping their heroes alive.

 

[Honor]

...and since Second Chance doesn't bring the unit to safety (and reduces the unit's movement to 0) it still needs protection if you want to keep it.

This rooting.

 

[25Hour]

And last but not least, does Losha Valas need more nerfing than the other heroes (since the survival promotion is removed before Immortal)?

I'd say less nerfing, actually. Unless I'm reading this wrong, Second Chance is just a safety mechanism put in place for heroes, meaning Immortal (or effectively Immortal) ones don't actually get anything out of it they didn't have already. So they might need some tweaking.

 

[ICanHasName?]

Both sytems are GREAT but the WC3 system sounds liek something that plays to the AI's strengths - building stuff that lacks requirements and throwing it toward their enemies.

"Me AI, me want more combat units... me build Valin... me send him alone to fight stuff because axeman spam no can keep up... *Valin dies*...Me AI, me want more combat units..."

Actually... the more I think about it the more I like your solution better

 

[Hawkwood]

This rooting.

But that is only for the first turn, next they are capable of moving again even if they haven't regained Survival.

I'd say less nerfing, actually. Unless I'm reading this wrong, Second Chance is just a safety mechanism put in place for heroes, meaning Immortal (or effectively Immortal) ones don't actually get anything out of it they didn't have already. So they might need some tweaking.

Normal heroes can lose a battle, after that they are sitting ducks until they have fully healed. Immortal units lose Survival before Phoenix Blood, meaning that Losha Valas is first turned into a sitting duck, but while other heroes die if they lose a second battle (assassins or no other units for example), she just respawns in the capital. And she can be more bold with attacking (and gaining Phoenix Blood) than before.
I may be overestimating how much that affects her, but I've never claimed to be good at balance.

 

[Rutee]

I have a dumb question: Why not just give them all Immortal, or Korinna the Red's version of it? Starting back from the capitol is something of a logistics problem when you start getting farther in the game, but allows them to be the bravest of the brave and means that they won't fall until their people do.

I mean yes, that makes them all very powerful, but wasn't that sort of the point?

 

[Crazy_Ivan]

Generally, just because you happen to be particularly strong, or have nice enough hair, you aren't immortal. Immortality is generally for people who are well, immortal.

Second Cance strikes me as the best way to emulate the "How do ya kill this guy?" feeling Heros generally evoke.

 

[Shatner]

I like it. I like it a lot. Well done, Hawkwood.

 

[Rutee]

Generally, just because you happen to be particularly strong, or have nice enough hair, you aren't immortal. Immortality is generally for people who are well, immortal.

Second Cance strikes me as the best way to emulate the "How do ya kill this guy?" feeling Heros generally evoke.

At least one unit gets Immortal and describes it as the ability to flee like a Sima (Or Warboss Gorgutz 'Ead'Unter, if you prefer), rather then actual immortality. That's what I was going for.

Also what Undying represents, I think. Honestly either way is fine, I just dislike the Assassin-bait.