Glory be and don’t call me Shirley.

[joycem10]

Where I come from people have been letting pigs roam the forests for mast and fruits for hundreds of years. It is a well-attested practice in Europe going back thousands of years. Pigs raised in such conditions are much less likely to contract disease and parasites, including flu and trichinosis, than pigs that live crammed together in huge factories or eat garbage in the streets of a city.

What about pigs used to dispose of corpses ala Hannibal or Snatch?

The game designers have obviously decided to put aside concerns about who will be offended by what issue. If you dont like it mod it or dont buy it. This game looks eminently moddable. You can make you version of your religion into whatever you want.

 

[MamboJoel]

This pig issue is ridiculous. Culture, civilizations, technology path are games concepts that both come from history of mankind and are to be manipulated by the player. Should we be annoyed when Rome falls under the Culture of Mongols, when London is not founded on a river, when Gandhi launches a nuclear attack on Greece ?
Same thing for the religion which is a concept to be manipulated throughout the games : It's rewriting history. If one does not feel comfortable with the very essence of the game he should not play it.
Besides, I really think they should use non existing religions, invent civilizations too. But they need the players to identify with countries he knows (maybe to use the passions of the ones and even the nationalism of others, I sometimes read discussion on this forum that remind me Europe at the begining of the XXth century...)
By the way, I feel that basically saying "Jewish Cathedral" is an insult can offend some that practice their religions in Cathedrals...

 

[Crazy Eskimo]

Wouldn’t it have been better to somehow “get a religion” and then name it?
For instance: AI ex machina, informs a player that around lunchtime, the great prophet Zork has had a revelation. The player names the religion Zorkism (or any other) and then in the name of Zorkity…
Well, you get the idea. Instead of offending a particular religion, you equally offend all religions.

q

I have no problem with player named/defined religions. That would be just fine from my point of view.

When it comes to food it is, there are tons of food-rules in the Bible that noone cares about, save perhaps for Ultra-Orthodox Jews. Comes from the ancient Jews attempts to classify everything living into natural beings and "dragons" or something of the sort.

First of all, Jews don't care what's in the Bible, they read the Torah. The Bible's a Christian book. Second, have you read the Bible, or are you just speaking from you imagine the Bible says? Because, yes, there are some specific rules about food in one section of the Bible/Torah, but it hardly resembles what you've described here.

Sure, the logic for the pork and shellfish thing was - i always assumed - living in a hot place without refrigeration.

Many taboo's are similar and have some grounding in reality. Dont procreate with members of your own family, cos dam look at (insert yokel region of own country here).

Some wirdly come back for different reasons. Eating fish on a friday for christians doesnt seem to make any senst, but given that fish markets arnt open now on the weekend NOT eating fish on a sat or sun is very probably a good idea. And quite possibly a product of eating fish on a friday.

go figure...

There's some merit to that. In this sectinn of the Bible/Torah, there are a lot of rules that are very practical. For instance, when entering an "unclean" house, the priest is supposed to wear what is basically the ancient equivalent of a surgical mask. And this is a society that is hundreds of years away from any understanding about microbes. (I feel I should give Gabryel credit for hitting on this too, since my response to him above doesn't mention the fact that I think the worm thing he mentioned has something to do with the prohibition).

As for the fish thing, it's not a Christian thing. I believe it's a Catholic thing. Anyway, it's not in the Bible, and is more of a tradition/ritual thing than a religion thing.

I will vote for the mono, poly, etc. idea - otherwise they will really need to get some sign off from various religious organizations (not for permission) for accuracy

I concur (unless you were referencing my idea, which would make me concur with myself... something I try to never do ) It'll avoid all these, as Gabryel put it, ridiculous arguments.

Obviously you don't live in America. I know people who do that all the time.

Yet another problem with portraying actual religion. How do you measure the strength of a religion? By how many adherents they have? Or by how closely they hold to the tenets of that religion (i.e. how devoutly they practice that religion). These two forces tend to work against each other.

Yes, there are people who treat religion like a buffet table. Some would argue that they aren't true adherents to that religion. Others would argue that they are. It's complicated, far too complicated to really address in a game. Maybe if you replaced the statement with "But then Judaism wouldn't be Judaism" unless there are sects that don't hold to kosher?

This pig issue is ridiculous. Culture, civilizations, technology path are games concepts that both come from history of mankind and are to be manipulated by the player. Should we be annoyed when Rome falls under the Culture of Mongols, when London is not founded on a river, when Gandhi launches a nuclear attack on Greece ?
Same thing for the religion which is a concept to be manipulated throughout the games : It's rewriting history. If one does not feel comfortable with the very essence of the game he should not play it.
Besides, I really think they should use non existing religions, invent civilizations too. But they need the players to identify with countries he knows (maybe to use the passions of the ones and even the nationalism of others, I sometimes read discussion on this forum that remind me Europe at the begining of the XXth century...)
By the way, I feel that basically saying "Jewish Cathedral" is an insult can offend some that practice their religions in Cathedrals...

The problem lies in that fact that history involves merely the actions of men whereas religion involves the actions of God as well. I don't think anybody who plays civ feels squeamish about stepping into the shoes of a great man or woman and taking a turn behind the wheel or trying to see how things would play out different with different geological factors, etc. But to step into the shoes of God and dictate the course of the growth of the supernatural... that's a different story.

That's why I'm for generic religions. Give the player European Monotheism and Mid-East Monotheism instead of Christianity and Islam, so they have something to identify with, but not something that my conflict with their faith/religion.

 

[qazxc]

First of all, Jews don't care what's in the Bible, they read the Torah. The Bible's a Christian book.

Oh boy! Where to begin…

The Jewish Bible consists of the Old Testament.
The Christian Bible consists of the Old Testament and the New Testament.

The Old Testament comes in three sections: The law (Torah), The Prophets (Nevi’im), and the Writings (Khtuvim).
The Law consists of the books of Genesis through Deuteronmy.
The Prophets consist of the book of Joshua through to Malachi.
The Writings consist of the book of Psalms through Chronicles.
I have omitted the Hebrew names of the Old Testament books to avoid further confusion.

The New Testament consist of the Gospels, Epistles and The Prophecy – with books Matthew through Revelation.

Jews care very deeply about the Bible (Old Testament) and its content; something they have proven through millennia.

I hope that clarifies things for you.

q

 

[qazxc]

By the way, I feel that basically saying "Jewish Cathedral" is an insult can offend some that practice their religions in Cathedrals...

That would depend on whether you are the victim or the victimizer, je suppose.

q

 

[oldStatesman]

As for the fish thing, it's not a Christian thing. I believe it's a Catholic thing. Anyway, it's not in the Bible, and is more of a tradition/ritual thing than a religion thing.

Are you implying Roman Catholics are not Christians, or using catholic in it's more general meaning? Your use of capitalization has me confused. Sorry to point this out, and forgive me if I am misinterpreting, but so far all your posts have shown sensitivity and respect for other religeons/sects, this seems out of character.

In fact, the 'Fish Tradition" goes a long way back, and Roman Catholics are not the only ones to practice it.

excert from Ken Collins http://www.kencollins.com/question-38.htm
Why Do Christians Eat Fish on Fridays and Lent?
In the first century, Jews fasted on Mondays and Thursdays. The original Christians were all Jewish and were used to the fasting as a spiritual discipline. They moved the fast days to Wednesdays and Fridays, because Judas engineered Jesus' arrest on a Wednesday and Jesus was crucified on a Friday. Most often that fast took the form of avoiding meat in the diet. In those days, meat was a luxury food. You either had to buy it in a market or you had to own enough land to keep cattle. On the other hand, anyone could grow vegetables or forage for them, and anyone could catch a fish in a lake or a stream. You could buy better fish and vegetables, but the point is that you could eat without money if you were poor. So meat was rich people's food and fish was poor people's food. That is why the most common form of fasting was to omit meat and eat fish.

The Wednesday and Friday fasts were a universal Christian custom in ancient times. The Eastern Orthodox still observe these fasts. The Roman Catholic Church downplayed the Wednesday fast, but kept the Friday fast until quite recently. Anglicans and Protestants also observed these fasts. In the 18th century, a man could not be ordained a Methodist minister if he did not fast on Wednesdays and Fridays, with the reasoning that a person who could not rule his own belly could certainly not rule the church.

I have been able to trace back the Season of Lent to at least the third century. During Lent, people fasted on every day except Sunday in the West and every day but Saturday and Sunday in the East. Older cookbooks have special recipes for Lent, and you can still buy Lenten cookbooks from Eastern Orthodox publishers, such as Light and Life.

 

[qazxc]

So, I replied (#12) with well deserved bits of sarcasm to a post by charlesolmsted (#6) that in my view bordered on the anti-Jewish, and now, predictably, he pouts.
This thread was about respecting religion, not about the dietary injunctions of some.

However, In his riposte (#17), he managed to raise a semi-coherent point:

… Furthermore, if you had bothered to read your own article, you would have seen that the very first sentence indicates that many of the health problems associated with raising pigs stem from the transition from pigs "being raised on small independent farms to large intensive livestock contract operations. More hog intensive livestock operations (ILOs) result in more hog waste concentrated in a specific area."

To which I reply, not all the sections/subsections in the quoted article were about Intensive Livestock Operations.
Ninety-nine percent of the farms that ever existed were small farms that included a variety of farm animals such as pigs, chickens, etc... This is exactly what you will find in China and South-East Asia today. In these regions, the proximity of farm animals to the farmer creates local and global health hazards; these are proven facts.
Although Intensive Livestock Operations are relatively new, they do go a long way in showing what a concentration of pigs can do. Therefore, one must conclude that if there was not a certain “pig” quality to begin with; “pig” quantity would not be a problem.

q

 

[MamboJoel]

I don't quite understand what you are trying to demonstrate with those pigs. The jewish secular attitude towards this animal was so wise that centuries later science finally prouved it to be realistic ? Are you asking us to subscribe that a religion does not need science to determine what food is good for men, or are you defending the fact that your religion is above others because long before any others and without the help of science, she knew that proximity of pigs created local and global health hazards ?
Holism.

 

[Gabryel Karolin]

First of all, Jews don't care what's in the Bible, they read the Torah. The Bible's a Christian book. Second, have you read the Bible, or are you just speaking from you imagine the Bible says? Because, yes, there are some specific rules about food in one section of the Bible/Torah, but it hardly resembles what you've described here.

I was talking about the old testament in which attempts are made to create a logic order where you may eat for example creatures with four legs and fur but not water-living animals without fins (fictional example).

 

[Civrules]

Moderator Action: Lets get back on topic please.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[qazxc]

I don't quite understand what you are trying to demonstrate with those pigs. The jewish secular attitude towards this animal was so wise that centuries later science finally prouved it to be realistic ? Are you asking us to subscribe that a religion does not need science to determine what food is good for men, or are you defending the fact that your religion is above others because long before any others and without the help of science, she knew that proximity of pigs created local and global health hazards ?
Holism.

I see that you are baiting me. My defense of certain Jewish sensibilities brought out the inner anti-Semite in you, huh? Dissolu typique... (English translation: This little pig...)

Moderator Action: Lets get back on topic please.

By all means, let's.

q

 

[h4ppy]

Religion is not a “Smorgasbord” - one can’t pick and choose the bits one will observe.

Evidently you haven't seen my version of "Christianity." But on a less sacreligious note, you need to stop taking things so seriously and realize that this is a game and that religion is only a small part of it. (I do like the idea of not having some food bonuses count for some religions; gives it a feeling of realizm.)

 

[OrpheusPrime]

Evidently you haven't seen my version of "Christianity." But on a less sacreligious note, you need to stop taking things so seriously and realize that this is a game and that religion is only a small part of it. (I do like the idea of not having some food bonuses count for some religions; gives it a feeling of realizm.)

Wonderful post. I agree, many religious denominations practice certain parts of a whole.. I see nothing out of place with more broad/general religions in civ4. But then again, since we haven't really seen much gameplay its hard to comment on how much it effects the game. These discussions of religion with all this fervor are totally misplaced on a Civilization *THE PC GAME* forum. My 2cents..

 

[MamboJoel]

I see that you are baiting me. My defense of certain Jewish sensibilities brought out the inner anti-Semite in you, huh? Dissolu typique...
q

Had to read the "Dissolu typique" twice before understanding it's french. Never heard this before, and still I don't understand what it means... "Amalgame classique" ? Anyway, I'd like you to give up you're idea of me having a hidden anti-Semite in me : Outrageant. I feel half surprised and half annoyed.

 

[qazxc]

Had to read the "Dissolu typique" twice before understanding it's french. Never heard this before, and still I don't understand what it means... "Amalgame classique" ?

Surprised, dismayed and bored to extremes that you do not understand since I was thoughtful enough to provide the English “translation.” Try again, please…
For non-French speaking forum members, my understanding of "Amalgame classique" in context is, given two bound objects of arbitrary relatedness the deduction of facts about the first from the second.

Anyway, I'd like you to give up you're idea of me having a hidden anti-Semite in me : Outrageant.

André Breton already provided the answer to that: "Pour s'exprimer un vérité gagnera toujours à prendre un tour outrageant."

I feel half surprised and half annoyed.

You could have multiple personalities; so, in reality you could be 1/6 surprised and 1/6 annoyed. Then, what of the other 4/6? Come clean; account for those, and we’ll talk change… But, until then, I suggest you review your posts in this thread.

q

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[In view of the Moderator’s genteel admonition, I crave his/her indulgence; but since this post does not mention any offensive macro biota by name, I hope, in earnest, the Moderator will allow it. q]
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[Dearmad]

I love religions. They bring thoughtful, intelligent, and kind people together.

 

[kafkaesk]

I love religions. They bring thoughtful, intelligent, and kind people together.

Um, like, in the crusades? But better let´s not go there...

This discussion clearly shows that it would really have been better to go for a custom-religion system with different traits to choose and unique/random naming, dependent on certain techs, economic factors, government styles etc.

 

[MamboJoel]

You gently give up the idea of me beeing anti-Semite. I can't understand how your anger led me to a discussion about religion : the last of my concerns. A bit of modesty could be nice. La culture, c'est comme la confiture, moins on en a, plus on l'étale.
Besides, you will not deserve more answers.

 

[silver 2039]

I hope they put atheisim in the game as well. Perhaps it comes with Commounisim.

 

[ogmoir]

I hope they put atheisim in the game as well. Perhaps it comes with Commounisim.

As has been pointed out, there is the option of "atheism" in the game: you can choose not to have a religion.