1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Gma02: “First Come, First Severed” - Training Day Game

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by gmaharriet, May 11, 2007.

  1. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    5,106
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Wow. I'd never even heard this. Learn something new every day, I guess.
     
  2. gmaharriet

    gmaharriet Ancient Crone

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,118
    Location:
    Northern California
    Neither had I. We just keep learning and learning. :D Thanks, Scout!
     
  3. Bede

    Bede Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Messages:
    8,160
    Location:
    Cape Cod
    It was whole lot cheaper just not to lose sight of it in the first place.

    When I opened the save and panned across the map, there was Froggie on a galley big as life. That is the first thing everyone does when they start, right...cast your eyes across the map looking for opportunities and oddities, things like galleys in the ocean, or Arab cavalry threatening undefended towns....right?

    And since the galley and its escort could not move more than three turns in any direction keeping track of it with air assets (in the right place) should not be a big problem. It is even less of a problem if you use the spy in the French capitol to steal the French plans as that will show a couple of things, like how many defenders in the French capitol, the location of all remaining French troops, ships or whatnots, and it will show all their movements on the interturn. So for the turns it took to get the bomber fleet in place I just bought the plans and watched them sail in circles, and then made sure they were never out of line of sight of the destroyer.

    In any case I stole the plans twice - once on the inherited turn, and one last time before crushing the French capitol. And since refugee governments generally do not have room in their galleys for foreign spies, you do need an enemy capitol for the spy to steal plans, or perform any other mission for that matter.

    After that it was a turkey shoot from an airfield located on the French west coast, instead of the east coast of our continent (scout's red dot).



    So long kiddo, it's been good to know ya'. I'd like you to meet my buddy Slim.

    So could you'all 'splain to me how the Froggie jumped to get lost from view? That of course assumes you knew it was there in the first place.... you did know it was there, right..... right? Even without stealing plans the destroyer should have been able to shadow as the galley would never be more than 5 tiles away in any direction. And the airforce would have found it if the air fleet moved to bomb it included a fighter, anyway. Could it have been the Jumping Frog from Talaveras County, able to leap tall stories in a single bound?

    The rest of the task was equally trivial and was only slowed by the requirement to move troops in place. How long ago was it that I made mention of the need to move transports down to get to the last English island?

    Since I knew the Franch capitol held but one defender, and it faced seven or eight armies of varying strengths and a host of artillery too numerous to count, I pulled four of the armies and most of the rail line defenders and sent them north to Bolton, then south to where the transports to the "scepter'd isle" awaited them. I also divided the airforce into two squadrons and sent one half to deal with the Frenchie and a second half to the air strip closest to England. And I loaded three tanks into the transport waiting at Camulodumum and shipped them off to the north island which I knew had only one or at the most two paltry defenders as the destroyer hanging out up there sialed across the strait and shelled the rifleman and the town showed no other defender.

    It took two turns to position the troops and another two to finish off England. The air fleet that sank the French was moved to the coast of old Spain to a location that would reach Asturias in England, as the airfield on the toe of the other continent was just out of range. (Just another reason why close reading of the map is essential).

    As I recall I had three armies (one cavalry, one armor and the long surviving Gallic/MDI regiment) and a boatload and a couple stragglers of infantry and guerillas.







    A round of bombing on the first three towns, three quick captures, flighted the unused aircraft to a town on the island, moved the cavalry and armor as close as I could get, a round of bombing from the Spanish coast, another round of bombing from the Home Air Fleet, and that was that.
    And here it is



    And oh yeah, a single tank took out the town between Cirta and the other continent. Lizz's island towns had a rifle and spear in each, the little town to the north had a single rifle.

    So here's my summation:

    Early game is all about food, middle game is all about shields, end game is all about reading the map and logistics.

    Good times playing with you all. Lots of "Teachable Moments"!
     
  4. Bede

    Bede Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Messages:
    8,160
    Location:
    Cape Cod
    Press Enter for the Victory Dance.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. scoutsout

    scoutsout Minstrel Boy

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    4,263
    Location:
    Check Six!
    @Bede: Nicely done! I especially enjoyed the bomb hovering over the S.F.S. Galley... nice touch.

    If I may offer another pointer, the F3 screen showed that France had a settler. I thought I left enough breadcrumbs in the turnlog...

     
  6. Bede

    Bede Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Messages:
    8,160
    Location:
    Cape Cod
    The bread crumbs were there, but so was the dang gallet lurking in plain sight! And tracking it would not have been too difficult, if you knew it was there, which, of course, you could see just as plain as the nose on my face!

    And there was certainly enough cash in the kitty to look into France's last town, or look at F3 for free, or steal all the plans you could use. It's all about using the tools you have - and the most important is your eyes. (Check Six!)
     
  7. gmaharriet

    gmaharriet Ancient Crone

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,118
    Location:
    Northern California
    I absolutely knew the galley settler was there, both from Scout's log and from checking F3. I didn't follow through after 2 French destroyers covered the galley and redlined one of our destroyers. Since I was sure my single destroyer couldn't kill both of Joanie's AND the galley, I lost track of where they went. :blush: I had to redo Scout's Challenge to get the bombers to do the job.

    As for taking Liz' island, I did some of what you did...bombing Asturias from Old Spain and Birmingham from the tip of Olde England, but I first took Birmingham, then built an airfield next to it, and airlifted about 100000 ;) workers in to build roads over the mountains for our armies to reach Asturias overland, and I rebased the bombers next to Birmingham. I also used a settler to build one town on the island to avoid railing one of the mountains, but I don't have any screenies to show that.

    All the wounded armies were left for a turn in Madrid to regain full hitpoints, then ferried over to Birmingham to take all of Liz's towns there...as fast as our workers could rail over the mountain chain.

    Of course, since I was doing Scout's Challenge, rather than regular game turns, I ended up with a Dom win, but no Conquest due to the settler still afloat.
     
  8. Desertsnow

    Desertsnow πr²

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,794
    I'm reminded of a particularly frustrating case of settler in a boat in one of my personal games. It was my first attempt at Always War. I can't remember what Civ I played, it might have been Inca and might have been Celts, but it was Conquests Chieftain, either standard or large map, temperate, moderate, either Pangaea or Continental landform, and I think 70% water. I wanted to see if I could achieve a conquest victory before the domination threshold, with AI respawn on, without razing any cities (notwithstanding autoraze but avoiding it if feasible). It was down to just me and Hiawatha, and the the Iroquois had already respawned once. I saw an Iroquois galley or caravel sailing southward from the vicinity of their last two remaining cities, and dismissed it as sufficiently insufficient as to deal with later. Well, by the time I took those last two cities the settler aboard that boat had founded a city, and a cultural expansion triggered the domination win. Ah, well, live and learn.

    Oops, I guess I neglected to post a save. Urgh. :suicide: Anyway, you'd've found the settler quickly enough anyway, and that last city was toast as I left it.


    :rockon: :band: :beer: :trophy: :trophy: :trophy: :trophy: :trophy:
     
  9. gmaharriet

    gmaharriet Ancient Crone

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,118
    Location:
    Northern California
    Good game, guys! I know I learned a LOT and I enjoyed playing with all of you. :D
     
  10. Bede

    Bede Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Messages:
    8,160
    Location:
    Cape Cod
    Looks like things went a little differently. In the IT the French sank a destroyer north of the galley group. Then sailed a second destroyer from off the coast to join the galley coverage. But it could not reach our destroyer, and the AI will never leave a settler without belt and suspenders coverage, so the other destroyer just sat there. But since I had stolen Joan's plans I could see all those moves.

    I never intended for the single destroyer to do anything but picket duty, leaving the heavy work to the air force.

    That sounds way too complicated. Sometimes the simple straight forward solution is best. As Frederick the Great once commented after hearing a Mozart sonata "Too many notes"
     
  11. gmaharriet

    gmaharriet Ancient Crone

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,118
    Location:
    Northern California
    I may have affected the RNG by building about 25 settlers. ;)

    I agree, but sometimes the simple is not obvious to me. I had no idea where to begin with such a mountainous island and only 4 transports nearby. I see you used one of the transports to capture Asturias, which seems simple now that I've seen your save, but didn't occur to me. That's why YOU're the trainer. :p

    You had a fine finish :goodjob: and you've been terrific as our trainer. :thanx:
     
  12. Bede

    Bede Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Messages:
    8,160
    Location:
    Cape Cod
    Okay, let's see if I can help you see this with my eyes. Four transports loaded with three armies and some oddballs. Two moves to the coast of the island with some movement left over. I know that there can't be much of anything defending and certainly no troops for a counter attack against the armies and infantry properly positioned. So I drop the armor and the cavalry right next to Birmingham, sail the Mixed Regiment and an infantry cover to the town to the south, then put the oddballs on the mountain.

    The intention is to use the existing road network to get everywhere but Asturias. Bombard and bomb and discover only two defenders (rifle and spear) in the three towns. Kill the strongest with the bombers then walk tank armyh into Birmingham, the Maces/Gallics into that other town, and a guerilla into the third. Move the cavalry army to the gates of Leicester on the existing road network, bomb it, and capture it, then move the tank army as far as it will go on the roads, just outside Richmond.

    Move the extra bombers to Richmond (had ten or twelve and only needed eight to do the job on the English defenders in the four towns captured on the first turn).

    Turn two, move the tank army to the gates of Asturias to verify that it will have movement left if I stick to the hills and stay off the mountains, then bomb the stuffing out of the city, restart the diesels and waltz into Asturias. Game over.
     
  13. gmaharriet

    gmaharriet Ancient Crone

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,118
    Location:
    Northern California
    Aha! I can see that you made much better use of your boats, because I just dumped everything next to Birmingham. Also, I can never remember just how far armies can travel on enemy roads (and what difference the terrain types can make under those roads), so I made some foolish moves with them, then tried to make up for it by railing anything near what I'd captured...and that's why I'm the STUDENT. :p

    Thank you for the detailed explanation!!! :)
     
  14. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    5,106
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Well fought, well played, well taught. A great game, one and all. Lots of teachable moments and it's hard to argue with a 15th century win.
     
  15. ThinkTank

    ThinkTank RL Addict

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    1,085
    Location:
    An inaccessible possible world
    lurker's comment: Nice game! :clap: I have been enjoying this and yes it was very instructive.

    Question. You showed that monarchy is feasible for doing this type of game. If you now have to estimate how not having war weariness compares to not having the economic advantages of republic, what would be your verdict? Wouldn't republic have been better?
     
  16. Bede

    Bede Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Messages:
    8,160
    Location:
    Cape Cod
    Monarchy is not only feasible for any kind of Always War variant (which this one was), it is probably a requirement at any level above Monarch. Remember you can't rinse and repeat in AW, once it starts it is a fight to the finish.

    The biggest advantage Republic brings to you economically is a faster technology pace. In this instance I think we proved that Monarchy combined with dedicated specialist farms can perform like a Republic under these conditions.

    When you consider that the Celts in this game spawned two SGL's up against two commercial powerhouses (France and England), both of whom were running commerce enhancing governments, that we were consistently able to sell tech to the powerhouse opponents throughout the Middle Ages, and that our military tech was consistently superior to the real opposition (France and England), and overwhelming to the other less worthy opponents on the map, it would be hard to argue that Republic offered any advantage at all, for this game.
     
  17. scoutsout

    scoutsout Minstrel Boy

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    4,263
    Location:
    Check Six!
    I believe the team has answered this question... even though I framed it differently..."a few" posts back. ;)
    Recognizing (early on) that this game would probably wind up with an Industrial-Era endgame, I advocated the Monarchy-to-Communism route. As the team demonstrated, the Celtic Monarchy (combined with specialist farms) performed rather well compared to the AI Republics.

    @Team: :hatsoff:
     
  18. ThinkTank

    ThinkTank RL Addict

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    1,085
    Location:
    An inaccessible possible world
    Makes sense, I somehow forgot this aspect of your game. Not having the ability to rinse and repeat would make war weariness really a problem in republic.
     
  19. Desertsnow

    Desertsnow πr²

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,794
    Of course, we were perpetually at war, with us as the aggressor in most cases, so Monarchy was probably the way to go, unless we had been able to secure beaucoup luxury resources very quickly. On the other hand, we were able to acquire the sources eventually. I usually play Republic in my personal games, though in my current one I'm experimenting with Monarchy and more than my usual degree of aggression. I still feel like I :wallbash: sometimes doing this.

    Thanks, Bede, for your time and and wisdom.

    And thanks to all for putting up with my :smoke:. I made some real blunders there, especially in my earlier turnsets.
     
  20. greygamer

    greygamer Feudal Lord

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2006
    Messages:
    1,838
    Location:
    UK
    I take it that this game is now concluded (save for the analysis). I like to thank Bede for his guidance and expect to profit from his (no doubt) hard earned wisdom.
    I'd also like to thank gmaharriet for giving me a nudge when my attention was elsewhere :blush:
    And finally everyone who voiced an opinion, it's all good :)

    Now time to practise with all the in-game saves :goodjob:
     

Share This Page