Going for Gold: Policies

[DeAnno]

How's 1 happiness every 8 people in a city?

If you want a really quick Happiness scalar you could differentiate from Tradition by saying 1 happiness for every X non-specialists in a city, similar to the Fealty language.

 

[azum4roll]

We want Progress to be wide and the happiness bonus be applied later, so an empire modifier reduction (-20%, multiplicative, aka each additional city increases the needs multiplier 20% less) should be best.

 

[Stalker0]

But the complaint is about the mid game, and giving a raw +1 happiness would help with the early game (late classical), to start.

Classical happiness is a medieval benefit though, because the extra growth you gain takes time to manifest. You grow quicker which kicks off a new snowball, and that snowball manifests in the mid game when you now have bigger cities generating more yields.

a common recurring note in this thread is people want to be able to use the food that get from progress, late game happiness adjustment won’t do that, you have to give happiness when you are really growing to see that benefit.

 

[tu_79]

We want Progress to be wide and the happiness bonus be applied later, so an empire modifier reduction (-20%, multiplicative, aka each additional city increases the needs multiplier 20% less) should be best.

I like this one, too. It both scales and kicks early.

 

[Gizmoman]

Finisher:
Unlocks building the Forbidden Palace.
Receive 25 Gold when a Citizen is born in any city, scaling with Era.
Cities earn +10 Science when they construct Buildings, scaling with Era.
Allows for the purchase of Great Writers with Faith starting in the Industrial Era.

The finisher is just lame right now. Cities rarely grow now that food is removed from Expertise, and growth in general doesn't fit Progress. Let's give them another trigger at building construction, like how Authority finisher doubles the yields of Tribute.

10 science when constructing a building is already in Industry so I don't think that's a good idea.

 

[pineappledan]

I wouldn't mind a re-up of the building completion yields though, similar to how Honor finisher doubles the tribute bonus. So maybe just +10 on building finish on Expertise and another +10 on building finish on the finisher.

 

[Stalker0]

Since we all got to throw in our new versions, time for mine really my version is just an amalgamation of ideas I've seen that I like.

Changes in bold.


Opener:
Receive 20 Science when a Citizen is born in your Capital.
Receive 15 Science for every Citizen already in your Capital
Receive 15 Culture when a Technology is researched, scaling with Era, and 15 Culture per Technology already unlocked (not scaling with Era).

Scaler: Gain an additional 15 Culture when a Technology is researched, scaling with Era..

Organization:
+1 Movement for all Civilian Units. Workers, Work Boats and Trade Units are trained 25% more quickly, and 20% cheaper with Gold. +3 Production in every City.

-- I like azumrolls updates here, as I agree gold buying and work boats could use some love. That said, I think this is the part of the proposal I would be fine without if it has resistance.

Liberty:
A Worker appears near the Capital.
+3 Gold in every City. Tile improvement rate increased by 25%.

Fraternity:
+3 Food in every City, and +3 Science from City Connections.

Expertise:
+10% Production towards buildings. Cities earn +10 Culture when they construct Buildings, scaling with Era.

Equality:
+2 Happiness in every City, Unhappiness Needs Modifier from Empire Size Scaler reduced by 15%.

(REMOVED: +1 Happiness in a City per every 15 Citizens it has)

--So a compromise here. We roll up the per pop bonus into an early +2 happy so it actually has value when the civ is growing. We go with the empire scaler idea, but a little less than the original proposal, to balance out the earlier +1 happiness.

Finisher:
Unlocks building the Forbidden Palace.
Receive 25 Gold when a Citizen is born in any city, scaling with Era.
+1 TR
Culture benefits of Expertise doubled
Allows for the purchase of Great Writers with Faith starting in the Industrial Era.

--The double benefit bonus seems like a neat idea if we want to push culture. I still think the trade route idea is a solid and interesting one, so I also added that to the finisher.

 

[tu_79]

I'm fine with most of it.
However, cheaper workers worth a discussion.

When I look at organization it looks as if it wants me to produce workers with hammers. It gives me the hammer reduction and the extra hammers, but still I end up buying units.
What's the cheaper worker production worth if we are very rarely using it? We might as well cut this part and save some text.
I say don't boost worker purchases, but instead reduce their production cost further. In other words, convince me to produce my workers with hammers.

 

[Stalker0]

What's the cheaper worker production worth if we are very rarely using it? We might as well cut this part and save some text.

I have never really understood that mindset. Just because something is not commonly used, doesn't mean its not used. Its true I buy most of my workers....but I don't buy all of them, this policy does get used.

Its not like the text descriptions are so laborious that we are running over UI limits or anything. So what if a player has to read a few more words, hell I think most of us after a series of games likely don't even read the full text anymore anyways.

 

[Floats your boat]

New progress game, new lack of problems with happiness. At any stage of the game. At the same time I think doubling culture from buildings on finisher may be too much. Though I would like it much more than +15% production instead of +10%. I would be earning +60 culture with very building here, cause I used Ethiopia to gain Civil Service and Banking from enhancing and reforming. And I have an awful lot of buildings to build, most of them taking only two or three turns to construct right now.

Spoiler :

 

[tu_79]

I have never really understood that mindset. Just because something is not commonly used, doesn't mean its not used. Its true I buy most of my workers....but I don't buy all of them, this policy does get used.

Its not like the text descriptions are so laborious that we are running over UI limits or anything. So what if a player has to read a few more words, hell I think most of us after a series of games likely don't even read the full text anymore anyways.

Well, a mechanic that gets little use and it's not vital for the proper functioning of the game, just adds complexity for no reason. We are already used to the many complexities of Vox Populi, for us it's just one more thing to look at, but a well designed game should have the least complexities, reducing the learning curve to the minimum enjoyable.

Compare the cheaper worker with the free worker. A free worker so early is game changing, the text explaining what it does is very short, the effect is really easy to understand and the strategies for benefiting are simple, so it will be used in most of the games for good reasons. That's a well designed mechanic.
Cheaper workers a little later has less impact, the text is lengthy, it's only used for a while if we are short on cash, because a worker today worths double than a worker in ten turns, the strategy is complex, as it is hard to compare when it is best to produce or purchase the unit. Thinking holistically, a player that does not do the maths would accept without further thinking the bonus as an indication that in progress tree (extra production, cheaper hammer cost), producing a worker is better than purchasing it.

It's already a thin line whether we should produce or purchase the worker, and now we're proposing also a gold reduction. That will add to confusion.

Also, the text becomes too clumsy for little benefit.
Something simple would be this:

Organization:
+3 production in every city. All civilian units +1 movement and are produced 50% faster. (That's a 33% cost reduction).

This text is short and impactful. Easy to use and understand. I don't need my calculator to decide whether to produce or purchase a worker. Maybe a bit too strong, as it includes settlers, but well, it's the wide tree, isn't it? Besides, the main deterrent of settlers is the population requirements, so it's not as if suddenly we can flood the map with cities.

 

[Drakle]

Progress Expertise - now 15% production for buildings (was 10%) Organization - now +3p (was +2)

So Progress got a few of the simplest buffs relating to Production. Do people think that this is enough of a boost, or does more need to be done?

 

[Stalker0]

So Progress got a few of the simplest buffs relating to Production. Do people think that this is enough of a boost, or does more need to be done?

For context, Progress' break even point with Authority on hammer production for buildings is now 20 (before adding in the +3/+6 hammer bonuses). Before it was 36.... so progress will definitely have the production edge more quickly than it did before, although it still takes a good bit of hammers before it beats authority.

I think most people had some flavor of the posted change in mind, so I doubt many people will think the current change is "bad". Is it enough depends on your current viewpoint of progress....for those who thought only a tweak was needed, this seems solid. For those who wanted a strong buff, this won't do the job. This won't do much to combat unhappiness, a common complaint for progress in this debate, so that's probably my main critique of the current change.

 

[Gazebo]

For context, Progress' break even point with Authority on hammer production for buildings is now 20 (before adding in the +3/+6 hammer bonuses). Before it was 36.... so progress will definitely have the production edge more quickly than it did before, although it still takes a good bit of hammers before it beats authority.

I think most people had some flavor of the posted change in mind, so I doubt many people will think the current change is "bad". Is it enough depends on your current viewpoint of progress....for those who thought only a tweak was needed, this seems solid. For those who wanted a strong buff, this won't do the job. This won't do much to combat unhappiness, a common complaint for progress in this debate, so that's probably my main critique of the current change.

A boost to production has a knock-on effect for pretty much everything though. So it will likely boost the other issues by proxy.

G

 

[tu_79]

If it doesn't, then next trick to try is the extra empire needs reduction.

 

[azum4roll]

Organization:
+3 production in every city. All civilian units +1 movement and are produced 50% faster. (That's a 33% cost reduction).

This text is short and impactful. Easy to use and understand. I don't need my calculator to decide whether to produce or purchase a worker. Maybe a bit too strong, as it includes settlers, but well, it's the wide tree, isn't it? Besides, the main deterrent of settlers is the population requirements, so it's not as if suddenly we can flood the map with cities.

Diplomat units and archeologists are also civilians. And I'd still buy workers with gold early game.

 

[tu_79]

Diplomat units and archeologists are also civilians. And I'd still buy workers with gold early game.

Then it will scale better

 

[Thibix Magnus]

hey getting back to this discussion, it seems Progress has been discussed a lot, I'm not sure what is the current state of the game after its recent buff, I'd still be very enthousiastic with bringing back the vanilla Liberty policy cost modifier, and in line with the scaling potential that should define progress.

However one thing I have been wondering of late, when addressing the progress identity issues. Maybe it is just way simpler to make authority a bit more warlike and less generally good at "wide", than trying to find how to fix progress? I haven't found recent discussions on that (sorry otherwise) and I know it is a huge change to the game and probably hard to balance, but why not simply changing the authority production scaler for something else? This is probably what makes authority still so good at "infratructure development" and overlaps so much with progress.

I loved the honor tree in vanilla, but I suppose the initial drive for the authority tree in VP was to be more flexible. So I guess the new scaler should not be a raw combat bonus or XP scaler. The general philosophy could be to make authority better at producing or maintaining an army, and get raw production -thus economic develeopment- as a reward for warring. Which fits a slave economy quite well, so it is not only the "war" tree, but has a strong ancient era vibe to it.

- a 5% unit maintenance discount scaler for each policy? And replacing the existing one in discipline by something else. Saved gold can still be invested in buildings so it still provides some economic breath.
- a 5% production boost to military units and buildings? still some indirect economic buff but a bit more targetted than raw production, however it overlaps with imperialism.

The lost raw production from the scaler would then need to be reacquired to a degree. I could see "science on kill" be replaced by "production on kill". I'm not fond of the science on kill as it is not very immersive (culture on kill at least has the epic litterature vibe to it, but I don't see what science on kill represents), while production on kill (and/or on conquest) can easily represent slave economy. Production on kill would be in all cities, as opposed to egyptian chariots.

Authority could also get some help administering conquered cities (cheaper courthouses, shorter resistance, etc) though it again overlaps slighlty with imperialism.

 

[ridjack]

I had a random thought last night that it would be nice and feel thematic if Authority could literally just "ignore" some amount of unhappiness. My thinking was something like making it so that penalties don't kick in until like 30% instead of 50%. This would let Authority expand into a ton of cities or handle beefy annexations and keep going without directly giving it a production boost.

 

[Legen]

However one thing I have been wondering of late, when addressing the progress identity issues

Part of it is that it isn't clear if Progress is actually the best tree for science as it claims. I often think that Tradition ends being the better science tree in the long run.

Progress's opener doesn't seem to scale well enough to compete with Tradition's scaler, and Fraternity's science output is easily achieved by Tradition's 4th policy, as it gives 2 science per city though councils and herbalists, plus the +3 science free building and the extra scientist specialist. Tradition also has the ability to generate more great scientists and the +10% yields in the Capital from the finisher, and its exclusive wonder is a powerful one for scientific civs; science on GP birth, a Mosque (+2 science) and +1 Great Scientist Point every turn in the city. Meanwhile, Progress's exclusive wonder has no science-oriented benefits.

Personally, I think Progress has received too much attention on the infrastructure part and had the science part neglected. I think the tree could use some of the following ideas:

• Add a fourth effect to the finisher. Progress has one less effect from the finisher than all other eight social trees, for whatever reason, and could gain a scientific one there to accompany the infrastructure oriented 25 gold per citizen birth effect.
• Change the wonders from Tradition and Progress finishers. Let Progress have the University of Sankore instead (with maybe a change of the trigger to something else, such as upon investing on a building in the empire) and choose something else for Tradition (e.g. Notre Dame).
• Add something to Progress that reduces the gap in its ability to generate great scientists compared to Tradition. For instance, a +2 GS in all cities in one of the policies, like Expertise.